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As Yugo mentioned, he also averaged nearly 5APG more and shot lights out from the field. Very bad example. 04-05 was the year Kobe had the ball most in his hands and had more responsibility than ever to create for his teammates because he was playing without a triangle and then a make-shift triangle. As I said before, the reliability of their teammates that season is irrelevant because LeBron had a worse offensive supporting cast around him. You cannot find me a wing player that is elite that coughed the ball up over 4x while managing only 6APG and shooting that poorly from the field. It just won't happen. I don't know how you're going to bring up the fact that it was a brand new offense when Kobe was an 8th year NBA veteran, ignoring the fact that LeBron was a SECOND YEAR player who had the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, scored AS MUCH as Kobe yet was more efficient with the ball in terms of AST:TO and FG %. And yes, his TO numbers were better when he was put back in the triangle...when his assists went down to 4.5 a game and PPG up to 35.4.

I'd take Cousins, Favors/Monroe (don't be afraid of letting Favors slip, IMO Monroe is gonna put up similar stats but more efficiently and add some assists), Johnson if available after that, if not James, then Henry, then Ed Davis or Eric Bledsoe. Maybe Vasquez if you like him haha.

See, my problem with your posts is your putting all this blame on his teammates as to why the numbers stack up the way they do...yet don't give the same consideration to LeBron. As I said in my post earlier, LeBron had a worse offensive team than Kobe did back in 2004-2005 (I don't like to use his numbers from after that because a) after 2004-2005 he became a one-man wrecking crew as a scorer, and b) the triangle offense that Phil put into place is a totally different animal and demands a much different style of play from Kobe than virtually any other style of offense). Kobe had shooters. LeBron did not. Kobe had players that allowed him to play off-ball, lessening his chances of TO's. LeBron did not. Kobe was a 9th or 10th year veteran. LeBron was a 2nd year player. I don't care what excuses you can make, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for a perimeter player to average 4 TO's with only 6APG. That is extremely poor efficiency, which really wouldn't be a problem if he was also scoring the ball with high efficiency, which he wasn't. At some point the importance of skill level diminishes when efficiency is that poor. And also, as JVG and Mark Jackson often point out during games, you have to know your teammates. Everyone knows Kwame Brown has stones for hands, as should Kobe...a bullet pass to Kwame should be out of the question. LeBron didn't exactly have the smartest or more skilled bunch earlier in his career but was smart enough with the ball to have a very high AST:TO ratio. As I said earlier as well, I don't considering playmaking purely passing. It includes decision-making, and as I've seen time and time again this year, Kobe will dribble himself into a double team and wait about 2 seconds too long to get the ball out of his hands, thus creating a TO. The game at GS about a month back pops into my mind. That is because Kobe's first reaction is always to score, and if he gets into trouble and tries to bail himself out, he's prone to causing a TO. And unlike LeBron's, he's not 6'8''-6'9'' with the ability to look over the defense and make the proper cross-court pass to an open shooter. That is a pass LeBron makes that I often see Kobe getting picked off on. Lastly, as for the Shaq comment...yes, Kobe did play with Shaq well. He fed the post better than anyone else on the team. Kobe was the team's primary facilitator. But in the triangle, the responsibilities on individual passers are far lessened because the offense moves through the post, thus not being the best showcase for overall playmaking ability. LeBron has been giving great feeds to Shaq in the post all year, giving him perfect bounce passes off the screen and roll, giving him that nice wrap around pass as well. But what LeBron has to do for his team that Kobe did not have to do is create for others in a far greater variety of ways. Constant pick and rolls, tough passes off penetration to the shooter, pin-point passes to guys like Varejao cutting to the basket...James makes plays for his teammates in virtually every offensive set there is. There are just too many passes LeBron makes on a consistent basis that more often than not would cause Kobe to cough up the ball.

Except for AI and Wade, I can't think of another player in the last 10 years or so that has averaged over 4 TO's per game (Edit: Steve Francis did it twice...suprise suprise...) And IMO Kobe is a top 10 player all-time and the most skilled player the game has ever seen. I am not denying his greatness or the fact that for the better part of the last decade he has been the game's best player. The issue is we are comparing him to another historic player with considerably better playmaking ability (which is the area we are discussing right now). Of course...but if you are an elite player and expected to be the primary scorer and playmaker on your team, you can't make excuses for poor efficiency. I already showed the examples of LeBron being efficient despite an EXTREMELY poor offensive team his first few NBA seasons, and as another example look at T-Mac back in 06-07 when Yao was injured for half the year. As being a VERY similar player to Kobe, T-Mac, with a very poor offensive cast around him, averaged 6.5APG with just 3 TO's. He was doubled as much as any player in the league. His 2nd option was RAFER ALSTON. And as good a playmaker as T-Mac was back when he was remotely healthy, even he is not the playmaker LeBron is.

Need4Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

"There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America." -Barack Obama

I have a better question: Was Denver's window ever really open?

Battier is starting to suffer from old age. His defense was excellent in Memphis, and Gasol was as soft as ever back then. I would say that Brandon Roy is closer to a Scottie Pippen than anyone else in the NBA. I said this about Granger last year, but he's falling off the map...just too inconsistent defensively. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201001080POR.html He defended Bryant that game, and he was amazing. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200912200MIA.html This was the second game a few weeks after the Heat beat the Blazers, and Roy switched over to Wade for the entire game that time around. I actually remember this one because I saw the interview where he stated he just tried to contain Wade and force him into bad shots. Also, Wade was suffering from back spasms a practice before the game, but they didn't seem to bother him for the first two quarters, where he tried to attack the basket. I think you'll remember that game. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200911160ATL.html There was the game that Roy forced Johnson into taking over 30 shots. I remember one where JR Smith was forced into 23 shots, shot 39% while doing so...and I think that was the game Billups was injured. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200911010OKC.html That game above is where the Thunder fans were booing like crazy, because they kept thinking Roy was fouling Durant. At the end of the game, Kevin was 3-20 from the floor. Roy is an excellent defensive player. Everyone benefits from a big. We could all say Rondo definitely does, especially with Perkins sitting up front as well (with Garnett). As far as Dahntay Jones goes, I didn't see him as a top five defensive player. He's nowhere near Afflalo's level. Jones was a hacking machine, and he got away with so many hand-checks, elbow taps, jersey grabs and wrist-holding than anyone else in the NBA.

Here are some of my favorites. Maybe I'm getting to the age when I'm starting to be senile or nostalgic or both, but people are so angry now. You used to be able to disagree with people and still be friends. Now you hear these talk shows, and everyone who believes differently from you is a moron and an idiot - both on the Right and the Left. (Clint Eastwood) Why talk about religion when there are so many real or actually important things to talk about? (Stanley Kubrick) A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. (Albert Einstein) Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one. (Bruce Lee) This is the life we chose, the life we lead. And there is only one guarantee -- none of us will see heaven. (Road to Perdition - 2002) What we do know is that, as the chemical window closed, another awakening took place; that the human spirit is more powerful than any drug - and THAT is what needs to be nourished: with work, play, friendship, family. THESE are the things that matter. This is what we'd forgotten - the simplest things. (Awakenings - 1990) Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. (The Dark Knight - 2008) Every man dies, not every man really lives. (Braveheart - 1995) As a species we're fundamentally insane. Put more than two of us in a room, we pick sides and start dreaming up ways to kill one another. Why do you think we invented politics and religion? (The Mist - 2007)

You wanna see, u wanna suck- Ramon.