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This post is lengthy. If you have tolerance for reading a lot, go ahead and skip this little summary. If not, then my main point is that Tayshaun Prince is one of the best defenders in basketball and is seemingly shunned and forgotten, and this may be the case of several other defenders. Awards, stats, accomplishments don't paint the whole picture, and Prince is one of the best examples. I would have put this in the Pistons forum but there's a bigger topic to this than only Tayshaun Prince. But let's start with my initial idea. So I was watching the Pistons-Thunder game on the free league pass which turned out to be a greater game than I thought. Villa hit a 3 to surely win but poor defense on Green pushed the Thunder to win. Well I'm from Austin, Texas, so I'm a big KD fan. But I was also a huge fan of the guy guarding him: Tayshaun Prince. And I couldn't help but notice that KD was shut down the whole game. If you watched the game, shots that Durant normally would make over worse defenders would rim out. Not by poor shooting or shot selection, but because of the defensive intensity that Prince brought onto him. What makes Prince a great defender is his height(6'9), length(7'2 ws), and athleticism. The thing is, so many players have these things. What puts Prince ahead of them all is his hustle and intensity. That's what defense is in the NBA. Everyone has size, it's how you use your size. On initial stats, Durant looks like he dominated Prince with 30 points. But really, Durant was held to 9-24 shooting(37.5%) and he had 11 of his points from the free throw line, which are as it suggests, free points. Because there's no way you can't foul Durant, he's tall, athletic, it's hard to stop him without fouling him. Unfortunately the defensive posts of the Pistons didn't have the awareness to avoid fouls. In honesty, Prince is one of the greatest defenders of all time. People always get heated up when you talk about all-time, because people always seem to think that the 80's and 90's players were in a whole different league above the current players. Hell, Prince is a better defender than Kobe, Jordan, etc.(this isn't going to turn into a Prince-Jordan defense argument, is it?). Yet he what does he have to show for it? All he has is a 2004 ring, no stats or all-star appearances to show his elite defensive skill, one memorable highlight block that will be played for many years, and 4 All-NBA defensive second teams. People will say that his shutting down of Kobe Bryant in '04 was the whole great Piston's team defensive effort. And it was, but Prince should be given much of that credit. No stats to look back on. Defense is being seen more and more as stats, stats, stats, actually that's how the entire game as a whole is seen. He's never averaged 1 block or 1 steal, even though he deflects every pass and contests every shot and makes them miss. No all-star appearances. Basically, if you never made an all-star appearance, you were never elite in anything. A block on Reggie Miller? That had summed up everything Prince stood for on defense, everything defense stands for overall; not letting the other team score. Except it's not like Kobe or Jordan, whom in their highlight mixes have various steals and blocks and finishing with some 1 handed 360 dunk on the other end. Prince only has one highlight. But 4 All-NBA defense second teams outrages me the most. It just shows that accomplishments really don't show much at all. Basically, Prince will be remembered as a good defender, but never as a great one. He had to compete with possibly the two best perimeter defenders of the decade(Bowen and Battier), great post defenders(Garnett, Duncan, and help-defender Camby), and various of other names who I honestly think Prince is better than. 04-05 second team: Prince's first individual accomplishment in the league. Other defensive wings were AK47(stat stuffer), Bruce Bowen(legacy of great defense, pest, and maybe a little dirty), Dwyane Wade(2nd team), and Larry Hughes(1st). Larry Hughes? Dwyane Wade? These two are good playing the passing lanes. But Hughes took risks and as a result let up a score many times. He didn't have defensive intensity. Wade is a good defender...never shut down. Neither Hughes nor Wade can ever be called a shut-down defender. 05-06 second team: Bowen, AK, Kobe, Artest. Prince is just as great as any of them. Because Prince has not been exposed as an elite defender, many of you won't think that he is better or on the same level. All these players have the name-values as a defender due to superstardom(Kobe), influence(Artest), many 1st team appearances(Bowen) and stats(AK) 06-07: Bowen, Bryant, Bell. All 1st team. Bell was the self-proclaimed "Kobe-stopper." Last I checked, the true Kobe-stopper held him to 38% shooting, 17% from three, and forced him to commit 4 turnovers in the finals of 04. 07-08: Bryant, Bowen, Bell(2nd), Battier(2nd). We're seeing constant appearances of Bowen and Bryant. I would suppose that after a while, the GMs grow on these guys and just continue to vote for them over and over again, while they ignore defenders such as Battier and Prince who are just as great. After that, no more defensive team awards. 08-09, the entire first team was basically the all-NBA team. Dwyane Wade was suddenly elected again in '09 and '10. LeBron James is a good defender, but he is put because he can make the highlight reel. Like Wade. Never shut-down. Kobe is put again because he is Kobe. Just as you have to put Jordan on 1st team because he is Jordan. Josh Smith(2nd team in '10) is similar to LeBron. I liked the selection of Varejao, and Wallace should've always been on one of the teams. It showed that they had players that always worked 100% on the end, and the results are wins. I would definitely put Battier over Sef, and Prince, but I guess '10 is an exception due to his injuries. So basically, my main point is that awards and accomplishments show nothing. All it shows is what the people giving them think, and I believe the results are misleading. For instance, if such a great defender as Rasheed Wallace never makes one of these defensive teams, something is wrong. Basically, Wallace will never be given the credit on defense he deserves. Neither will Prince as well, when people are talking about the greatest defenders of all-time 20 years later, Prince's name won't come up. There's probably plenty of players who were better lock-down defenders than the names we know(or think) as great today. The funniest thing is I doubt that Prince even cares. He's a team player, and he doesn't work for himself as an individual. That's why so many teams want him as part of their franchise. That's why the Pistons hold on to him while getting rid of just about everyone else. That's why he's a true winner, and one of my favorite players of all time.

I'll start off by saying that I've never lost my voice at a Nets game before today. Enthusiasm from the crowd seems so unfamiliar, and it feels as if it has been taken to a new level. Coming into the game: Thanks to successfully predicting Favors as the Jersey's third overall pick in a mock draft on the Nets' website this past summer, I had the option between two lower level tickets for the home opener or tonight's game. I figured Wednesday would be too hectic, so I selected the Sacramento game. I left my house at around 6:40. The only traffic we hit was entering Newark, but navigating to the Pru was no trouble at all. The parking system is great. The ticket gates were a two minute walk from where we parked (Izod Center usually offered the option of walking down five stories of a parking deck or parking in the lot and walking through a giant tunnel to the front entrance), but we had to walk around to the other side to the will call window. By the time I was in my seat, it was about 7:25, which was impressive. The big stories coming into the game were the Cousins-Favors hype after Cousins' comments about the Nets picking Favors over him, and Tyreke Evans making his season debut after Sacramento put up 117 without him in their season opener, and the question of how the Nets would perform after a great start to the season. The game itself: The arena wasn't quite as full as the home opener, but both games had significantly higher attendances than just about all of our games last year. As many have noted, it is a major upgrade from the IC. The trip to and from the arena is quick, parking is easy, and the layout of and experience at The Rock is great. Along with the whole idea of "It's All New" with our changes over past months, I'm sure the convenience of traveling to the location is what has drawn larger crowds. The programs that were handed out this past Wednesday as well as tonight included the following note: http://oi52.tinypic.com/mhrs7a.jpg The Nets were hovering around a 10-point lead for some time before they blew the game open to as many as 18 points. I was surprised that Sacramento waited so long to call a timeout. In the final four or five minutes of the half, though, we started turning the ball over, making questionable decisions on offense, and fouling seemingly ineffectively. There were three technical fouls in less than 40 seconds of second quarter action (Paul Westphal, Kris Humphries, Jason Thompson). The game consisted of plenty of technical FT's with the T's and 3-second violations. Our lead was 61-53 at the half. Halftime featured a performance from Salt-n-Pepa, who I had never heard of and figured was a mediocre group before they were introduced as "legendary." The third quarter featured the rest of the Sacramento comeback, and they took their first lead of the game since early in the first quarter. They were creating open shots on the perimeter, taking advantage of more turnovers on our side, and making it tough for us with their second chance points. Through all this, I felt the officials were making awful calls. I don't know if that applied to both teams, but it was certainly more noticeable with the Nets, who were stopped by some kind of whistle every time they had a chance to shift momentum back on their side. In the fourth quarter, matters seemed to get worse. After the Nets erased their small deficit, the Kings opened it up to an eight-point lead with less than four minutes remaining in the quarter. Favors and Lopez both picked up their fifth personal fouls. Frustrations from the team and the crowd were evident. But it didn't take too long to once again make it a tight game. Threes from Farmar and Harris highlighted a turnaround that gave us a one-point lead. On the next possession, Harris performed his signature crossover-and-jumper to extend our lead, turn it into a game of free throws and killing time, and eventually help us to victory. Lopez attempted a couple of long-range jumpers, which he has seemed to consistently knock down this year, but was off on them tonight. He still finished 8-16 from the field and went to the stripe for 15 shots, of which he made 13. As a team, we were great from the stripe. The only surprise was seeing Harris go 5-8. Farmar was 6-6 and Outlaw 6-7. As a team, we were 36-45. Outlaw had a big bounce-back game tonight, going 5-9 from the field, and hitting a key 3 in the fourth quarter. We're looking for his ability to perform especially well in the final 12 minutes. Favors had another solid performance off the bench. 10 points, 7 boards, and another couple of exciting dunks. Our PG rotation with Harris, Farmar, and T-Will has been running very well. Johnson has had no troubles putting two of them on the floor together either. We were sloppy tonight. The squad combined for 26 turnovers. We had four three-second violations (2 offensive, 2 defensive). Our first possession of the game was taken away with a 5-second inbound violation. The Nets trailed by 7 with 1:40 left in the game on Wednesday and were down 8 with 3:40 left in tonight's game. Different members came up big in the clutch, and it seems to be a combination of key performances and a great job on Avery Johnson's part that has gotten us off to this 2-0 start. After the game: Exiting was not too different from coming into the Pru. Again, no parking deck or long tunnel to deal with, so in less than ten minutes, we went from our seats to driving out of the parking lot. Facebook is taking a while with the pictures and videos, so I plan on posting them tomorrow.

not at all.

So let's see here... On October 26, Boston beats Miami On October 27, Cleveland beats Boston On October 29, Toronto beats Cleveland So in conclusion... Raptors > Cavs > Celtics > Heat

http://wegotthiscovered.com/wp-content/uploads/kid-cudi-man-on-the-moon-2.jpg It's been leaked, shoot me a PM for a download link and I'll gladly give it to ya either tonight or tomorrow when I get back on.

I'm just posting here to get a free rep like everybody else. -_-

Welcome to the site man. Another good quality poster joining the fold. Thanks for joining. Hope you are able to have fun and stay active! See you around the boards.

Oh boy, I know this guy from RSZ, he should be able to fix up the slack left from flyers and diesel, the Philly fan base is back on the map at OTR Welcome!

Welcome to the best.

Welcome to OTR.

Welcome Philly!

http://i56.tinypic.com/255o1s5.gif

Welcome bro i remember you from RSZ before I left that place (place is wack lol) hope to see you around.

Are we going to try and get our Philly collection back? I THINK I remember you, from somewhere. Too hard to say, though, because I've been around so many different forums. Welcome to the best.

^ 12 turnovers ruined it -_-

For some reason I thought you were Diesel as first lol. Regardless, nice to have another Sixers fan. Welcome to OTR, stay active. Btw, what are you feelings on rumors that Iggy might be traded?

Welcome to OTR.

Are you KIDDING ME??? CP3 scores more on better efficiency (from both the field/3/FT line) than either player, gets more assists with less turnovers than either player, is a better rebounder than D-Will AND a better defender. Rondo may be a slightly better rebounder and defender than CP3, but he's more careless with the ball and can be completely taken out of the game if you sag off him like Kobe did in the Finals. CP3, on the other hand, shot over 40% from 3 last season. CP3 is also a more explosive scorer, capable of dropping 30+ on any night his team needs him to...D-Will and Rondo can't. Anyway, as Brandon said, it's a tossup between Amare and Bosh. I don't think either of them are capable of leading a team past the 1st/maybe 2nd round of the playoffs as a #1 option. Both are exceptional scorers, with Amare being the more explosive/aggressive scorer, and Bosh being the more polished scorer. Bosh is without a doubt the better rebounder, and also a much better defender. Amare may block half a shot more per game, but he has horrendous defensive awareness and he's incredibly lazy on that end. Bosh is a very good PnR defender and puts forth more of an effort. I'd say it's a wash, maybe because Amare's always been my favorite big man in the league. But nontheless, it is very close.

Kobe by forfeit. LeBron and Wade wouldn't want to beat each other.

Mediocre? 2000 - 21.1 PPG on 44.2% FG, 4.5 RPG, 4.4 APG 2001 - 29.4 PPG on 46.9% FG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG 2002 - 26.6 PPG on 43.4% FG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG 2003 - 32.1 PPG on 43.2% FG, 5.1 RPG, 5.2 APG 2004 - 24.5 PPG on 41.3% FG, 4.7 RPG, 5.5 APG 2006 - 27.9 PPG on 49.7% FG, 6.3 RPG, 5.1 APG 2007 - 32.8 PPG on 46.2% FG, 5.2 RPG, 4.4 APG 2008 - 30.1 PPG on 47.9% FG, 5.7 RPG, 5.6 APG 2009 - 30.2 PPG on 45.7% FG, 5.3 RPG, 5.5 APG 2010 - 29.2 PPG on 45.8% FG, 6.0 RPG, 5.5 APG

Considering he would be getting a max deal, or damn near close to one, if he hit the market, I'd say that $12.5M isn't all that bad considering he is still relatively young and won't be a worn out vet by the time the deal is over. He will be 33 by the time that this contract is finished and while he probably won't be as effective as he is now due to his game being so dependent on speed and quickness, I still think he will be capable of giving you around 16-6, maybe more points depending on what the Spurs roster looks like in a few years. I just love the fact that a semi-star player is signing with a small market team. After all of these players signing with big market teams or in Melo's case trying to force his way to a big market, it is encouraging to see a player like Parker stay loyal to the franchise that had so much faith in him. He could've easily waited until his deal was up and then signed with the Knicks or something, so it is nice to see loyalty on his part.

Hey sas long time, glad you decided to join a forum again.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm233/lebronze23/the_truman_show-front1.jpg Kevin Durant version.

The music at Wells Fargo Center for the Sixers is absolutely brutal. I think I heard that song "Dynamite" at least 3 times last night, no joke. The only songs they have played consistently, that I can recall, are "Jump" by Van Halen for jump balls, and "Allentown" by Billy Joel (FTW!!!!) for every time AI hit a big shot last year. That doesn't really have any impact now though. Also, "The House is Rockin'" by Stevie Ray Vaughan is played when the stupid rabbit and his friends are shooting t-shirts into the stands. That probably can't be incorporated into a video game though, ha! Other than that, the music selection is horrific.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs950.snc4/74331_1312043860781_1821195812_612038_2745933_n.jpg Lighting is significantly better here at the Pru. http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs776.snc4/67633_1312043260766_1821195812_612037_231357_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs449.ash2/72250_1312041020710_1821195812_612034_3359740_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs889.snc4/72272_1312039940683_1821195812_612033_8334517_n.jpg Seats took some time to fill up. There were still quite a few empty seats, but as I said, the attendance is looking better here than last year at the Meadowlands. Notice the Devils logo remains on the seats. http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs465.ash2/73827_1312039100662_1821195812_612032_7402732_n.jpg I wish they kept the zigzag lines along the sides of the free throw line. The Pru replaced it with gray stripes. http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs398.ash2/67676_1312035620575_1821195812_612028_7832242_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs442.ash2/71551_1312034220540_1821195812_612027_3246268_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs442.ash2/71589_1312032460496_1821195812_612026_5055592_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs002.snc4/33438_1312024660301_1821195812_612016_6245578_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs786.snc4/66684_1312024140288_1821195812_612015_4211881_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs909.snc4/72200_1312023260266_1821195812_612014_1727081_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs008.snc4/33763_1312021660226_1821195812_612013_5285419_n.jpg Nets' banners lined up on one end of the sidelines. http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs950.snc4/74363_1312019180164_1821195812_612008_5716571_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs004.ash2/33580_1312017220115_1821195812_612004_6730565_n.jpg Devils' banners. http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs795.snc4/67503_1312020580199_1821195812_612012_147060_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs125.ash2/39565_1312016740103_1821195812_612003_8277838_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs458.ash2/73192_1312014180039_1821195812_611992_430034_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs943.snc4/73667_1312012820005_1821195812_611989_1079963_n.jpg Blurry picture, but Favors and Cousins both had 10 points and 5 fouls at this point. http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs469.ash2/74200_1312012620000_1821195812_611988_1742595_n.jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs276.snc4/40162_1311999379669_1821195812_611970_6175013_n.jpg PNC Tower.

welcome!

Pretty exciting for the Knicks fans, but I really have to say, it would be much more effective if it were a trio of all-star players saying it. Seriously...my only complaint is that Amare sucks at performing the Garnett scream.

Welcome to OTR man! I remember you from there, I was tj#5. Thanks for joining, great to see another familiar face. Hope you have fun and are able to stay active! See you around the boards.

Welcome, always nice to see interstate fans on the site, always fun having a bit of banter.

- The Raptors crushed the Cavs spirit in that third quarter, particularly Kleiza who was awesome. He was just abusing Jamario Moon in the post and torched him for 13 points and I think something like 8 straight in the post. He can really take advantage of the smaller 3's down low as he was just bullying Moon around. - DeRozan had a very good 3rd quarter. He was really doing a nice job of breaking the defense down and creating opportunities for himself and his teammates. His numbers won't blow you away (14 points and like 3 assists) but I thought that he played a very good game tonight, excluding that 10 minute stretch where he was practically invisible. He was great in the 3rd. - Evans is hilarious to watch. He just runs around full speed banging into everybody and going after every loose ball. He is awful on offense and average at best on defense, but he is such an awesome rebounder. He has 30 rebounds in the Raptors first two games. - Even though he couldn't knock down anything, I thought that Calderon played pretty well in the 3rd quarter. He was doing a nice job of running the offense and getting his teammates some easy looks down low. It helped that the Cavs were playing so pretty awful defense and presented him with some very easy passes, but he was solid. - The bench was pretty solid tonight. Weems was chucking a bit, but he played much better in 2nd half than he did the 1st, but I still wasn't too impressed with his play. Andersen is very good at hitting that 15 foot corner jumper off of pick and pops, but it is pretty comical watching him try and do anything else. Barbosa was pretty solid tonight getting to the basket and using his speed to put pressure on the Cavs defense. Johnson was solid as well. He can be such a nice spark off of the bench when he actually stays out of foul trouble. I already mentioned Calderon above. I know I said that I was going to try and make some comments about the Cavs, but to be honest, I can sum up my entire thoughts on them tonight in one word: awful

I am pretty sure Nike/Gatorade is sponsoring this, but there haven't been sightings of a lot of advertisements, so I don't know.

I'm assuming you're labeling Pau Gasol a center right now.

Someone needs to drop this dude, seriously, he is a [expletive]ing idiot.

im not sure, ask Tupac.

Incredible defense. Nobody on the other team had more than a single assist. Granted, it is Jameer Nelson and Chris Duhon running the point. Still. If the Heat are this good on their third official game together, imagine how good they will be after 82.

I wonder if Von Wafer found out Delonte was doin his momma too at least he would be man enough to do what LeBron couldn't

New Cudi album is sick

http://blogs.thescore.com.s3.amazonaws.com/tbj/files/2010/10/celtics-fight.jpg

Manu Ginobili http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2010/10/13/1749171/video-manu-ginobili-coach-spurs-game-winning-play-nba-preseason 1-0

LMAO!!! thats the creepiest [expletive] ever...at the same time..how chill is Kevin Durant, saying if u wanna come chill just come over

fishsticks1127 8:54 pm (8:54:46 PM): u know flash n ecn (8:54:48 PM): r reppin that (8:54:49 PM): lol

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/11/2010/10/340x_ronronjpg.jpg

Of course we would win, we would just send the Miami Heat there. LeBron would lead the Army in kills, Wade would be awarded a Medal of Honor for his clutch performance in the Battle of Shanghai, and Bosh would lead the military in local village rapings. It'd be kind of like the A-Team, with Pat Riley as Hannibal. To top it off, they would win the entire war in 2 days, and make it back to play the Orlando Magic on Friday. Seriously though, we'd need to reinstate the draft to make this a real discussion.

The thread title says funny convos.

Hasn't been stat padding? Dat dude plays with Steve Nash, playing on the Suns with Nash inflates da numbers.