Real Deal

He turned 31 at the end of his last 30+ PPG season, and it was his 10th season in the league.

Remove all accomplishments (team accomplishments and championships, media awards, everything in between) and list your top five players in NBA history. Base it on skillset, abilities, and overall play alone. Ex. Kobe no longer has five championships, Russell doesn't have 11, MJ doesn't have five MVP's, etc.

This shit will someday be the downfall of this website. If we have one more instance of this, people baiting each other and acting childish, I'm going to insert 3-4 members into a poll into the staff forum, and I'm going to allow my moderators to take a vote, to see which are going to be banned for life, accounts deleted and IP addresses banned. I have been the reason why the mods haven't decided to take care of this mess yet, for the sake of keeping guys around, but now, things are going to be much different...and I have a feeling members will be shocked to see who goes (one, or all).

I almost put Zeke in there, but NVE always huffed and puffed in games, made strange noises at players, and trash-talked everyone. Really a toss-up for me, I guess...NVE just stood out a bit more because he wasn't a superstar. And I had to put Ron on that list because, not that long ago (meaning, this summer), he said something about how he is still an all-star player (or something along those lines). He flexes his muscles during games, blows kisses to the crowd when he hits a big shot in G7 of the NBA Finals, got in Kobe's face numerous times back when he was in Houston, and trash-talked everyone he defended as a Pacer. A lot of people never knew Bird talked so much trash...but yeah, he was pretty bad.

If it was more about guys that are cocky and, yet, can't back it up as an all-star player...well, I'd be posting a list of 100 guys. There are a lot of them. DeShawn Stevenson comes to mind. JR Smith, Brandon Jennings, Ron Artest (no longer an all-star, of course), Eddie House, Rafer Alston (when he played), Lance Stephenson...quite a few of them out there.

Well, not all great players are cocky, though. Tim Duncan isn't.

I'm not even going to discuss the differences between Cole and Meeks...but you know that's not true. There is a HUGE difference between being defended by a summer league player, and being defended by CP3 (or even any backup PG that is on an NBA roster + anchoring big men that are waiting for Cole in the paint). Meeks shot 46% in his final season with Kentucky. Doesn't mean anything because it's not in an NBA regular season.

Hibbert should attend the funeral. That would be a great thing to do.

C - Shaquille O'Neal | Dikembe Mutombo PF - Charles Barkley | Kevin Garnett SF - Larry Bird | Ron Artest SG - Michael Jordan | Kobe Bryant PG - Gary Payton | Nick Van Exel Ask me tomorrow, and I could probably give you a different second five...but the first five are a given.

I know you didn't necessarily stick him there. My question is, how is there even an argument? Kobe has as many championships as Duncan, D-Rob, Malone and Barkley combined. He's a better scorer than all of them (even Malone...the all-time scoring numbers don't mean THAT much, or else Karl is also a better scorer than MJ). Kobe has always been five times the defender Charles has been. If you're going to say that Charles Barkley is arguably top ten, you might as well stick Steve Nash in there as well, because he has two MVP awards...and Dirk Nowitzki, for having one MVP + a championship, as well as Kevin Garnett (who has actually accomplished more than Barkley AND is a better overall player). Then, if Nash is considered, you have to add Stockton, who is a top three PG of all time (Magic, Oscar, Stockton). I feel bad for them, then.

If Mike Miller can stand back and hit threes, limping around as if Brock Lesnar just clotheslined the shit out of him...I'm sure Jodie Meeks can find some way to help.

Robinson, Malone and Barkley over Kobe??? I'm the biggest Charles Barkley fan on this site, and he's not even CLOSE to KB. I can see where people think any of the other legends are better (like Magic, because of his individual awards, or Russell because he has 11 rings), but there is no way in hell any ringless player in the history of the game is sitting in front of Kobe on that list. Honestly, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone place Kobe out of the top 10, and especially sticking any of those three players ahead of him.

You either needed to calm down, or check your attitude. According to me, and because I am the one that determines whether or not a thread is off-topic, Meeks is a player that will see minutes against this Miami Heat team. Therefore, discussing how he will fit into the system, and who may see minutes over him, is on point with this topic. If that's a problem for you, it's something you'll have to deal with on your own, away from your keyboard. Nothing else to discuss.

Guess I'll have to check your IP address and make sure you're not Jodie Meeks, since you're acting like I'm talking about you. Calm the [expletive] down, and don't tell me to get "back on topic."

Even without the rings, he's top five for me. Jordan, Kareem, Kobe, Magic, Wilt (no particular order). Add two rings to the collection, and I will stick him right behind MJ, without thinking twice. I still can't get over the fact that Wilt averaged his 50 PPG, and did everything he did on the glass, in an era where 6'7" PF's were defending him, and there were few athletic freaks.

Ah...exactly, so why did you say this about Goudelock, then... Did you really think he would have that opportunity in LA last season? Last year, Goudelock had six double-digit games, playing over 24 minutes just twice. Meeks had eight double-digit games his rookie season, playing over 24 minutes seven times. Meeks dropped 31 because he played against a poor team (when healthy) that was busted up and had D-Leaguers playing for them (made them even worse), and he was given 36 minutes or so that night. PLUS, Philly didn't have Andre Iguodala. I'm sure Goudelock could net at least 20 on Alonzo Gee, with no anchor, no defensive presence anywhere on the court that can stop him...and no superstar or all-star trying to take the ball out of his hands. My point is, Meeks has done nothing spectacular, even for a bench player. All of this started because you were amazed that someone said Goudelock (who has been shooting threes all throughout college and was acknowledged as the best three-point shooter in that draft class) was probably better from outside. All you did was tell me Meeks shot a bunch of threes in a quarter, and he attempts twice as many. I don't see anyone telling me Kobe Bryant (three-point record in a game) is better at shooting them than Reggie Miller, or that Jason Kidd (third-most threes made in NBA history) is better than Kyle Korver. That's all I'm saying.

His 31-point game was against Alonzo Gee, with Varejao out and nobody defending the rim. Tristan Thompson played center, Samardo Samuels backing him up. I mean, Brian Cook had a 28-point game. Vujacic scored 25 a couple of times. Chucky Atkins scored 36 against the Miami Heat in his second NBA season. Farmar had 28 against the Thunder two seasons back. Meeks isn't going to be that great. It wasn't like the entire league was after him. This feels like a similar situation when the Lakers found a way to bring in Steve Blake, who torched us when he was in Portland. Supposedly, he could do more than just shoot threes...he could run an offense, and he was an underrated defensive player. Supposedly. It's nice to have a backup two-guard now, instead of having to rely on Steve Blake...but let's not go overboard. Meeks isn't going to go off in LA...not like you want him to.

So wait a minute. Meeks hasn't exactly proven any of that, so why are you giving him credit for it? Isn't that what your issue was with Goudelock? If all Meeks has done has been spotting up for threes, why are you telling me anything else about his game?

Don't think Wade was injured when they played LA back in March, though. He seemed fine. He was pretty dominant before playing us...14 of his last 16 games before that March meeting, he was shooting 50% or better and scoring 25-30 points with ease...had three of his last four games logging 30+ points, before he struggled against Bryant, limited him to 16 points, just two free throws, 7-17 shooting (41%). Why should I be worried about Wade? Jeremy Lin is most definitely not Steve Nash. Lin was a turnover machine, and that Knicks team had no idea how to configure an offense that could involve Melo, Amare AND Lin. It wasn't that tough to defend them. Lin also shot 1-11 in that game, something you won't see Nash do against the Heat...not with two other superstars and an all-star as his teammates. I believe Lin had more turnovers than points. Jamison had three really good games in that series vs. Boston in 2010, and that was with a bigger role. Doubt LeBron will be defending Jamison, and Bosh will have to be playing the five most of the time (if Howard isn't in there, Gasol will be at the five). I'd be shocked if Battier and Haslem can do a better job than Garnett, so if we can get 3-4 good games out of Jamison, in a series, we will be just fine. We kept it close, nearly won two of those games...but I think the pick and roll killed us more than anything, like it has for years (...well, for over a decade, actually), and the difference between Howard and Drew (in the pick and roll) is the difference between Webber and Jordan Hill trying to make a pass to a cutter. Nash is 38-39 years old, dude. If he won't have anyone to run with him on the break, I guess it's time for Kobe and Dwight to retire. Kobe isn't that slow, and if Pau Gasol can run a fast break on his own (like he did probably three times last year, for some stupid reason...yet he still did it), I'm sure Howard can take off and grab anything that Nash (or Kobe) miss off the rim on the break. Has LeBron performed badly in the playoffs, pre-championship? He doesn't have to have bad games to lose, he just needs to be kept off the free throw line and, now, out of the post. I disagree that Chicago will be the better defensive team (at full health), but even then, they will be nowhere near the offensive threat, and while defense wins championships, you have to score points as well. The Lakers will be able to defend almost as well (at least...I think they'll be better) and they will be a much better scoring team than those Bulls. I mean...right now, you're going to have to either say the Heat are winning the next 2-3 championships (because LeBron isn't slowing down any time soon), or just come out and say that Artest and Dwight (and sometimes Kobe) will be enough to limit him (if that's a good word for it) and take out Miami. Nobody in OKC will get that done (Durant has no shot at limiting him), so I'm assuming you don't think they will. So, because Mike Brown didn't play Goudelock more, that means he's not as good shooting the three-ball? Really? Why didn't the Miami Heat play James Jones more? He's notorious for being one of the best three-point shooters in the league, shot over 40% just last year, and he was barely seeing 10 minutes a night. Goudelock didn't play because he couldn't defend anyone...too small at the two-guard, just as Meeks is (and that will show, just like it did with Lock). He also didn't do anything else, didn't take any shots inside of the paint, couldn't slash, couldn't hit mid-range. I never said Goudelock was a better shooter, so don't bother giving me his TS%. I'm simply saying that Goudelock is arguably the better three-point shooter. If left open, or in a three-point competition, he could hit more from long range than Meeks. Saying it's not even close is ridiculous. Meeks has never reached 40% from three, he has shot poorly from the floor in general (FG%), and his TS% has quite a bit to do with his extremely-high FT% (which was 90% last season). Larry Bird, and Jodie Meeks, have a similar career TS% (almost exactly the same). Doesn't mean much to me, because everyone knows Larry Legend is one of the greatest three-point shooters ever, and the casual NBA fan doesn't even know a Jodie Meeks (who has been in the league for just three seasons).

...based on what? Goudelock probably shot better from three (percentage-wise) last season, and he was also the college three-point champion, and known as the best three-point shooter coming out of the 2011 draft class. What tells you that Meeks shoots the three better?

Damn man, I seriously laughed out loud on that one.

Completely forgot about Meeks. I'm still trying to get used to Howard, Nash and Jamison, lol. He's a 37-38% 3PT shooter as well, I believe. Not really sure if he's a better three-point shooter than Goudelock, though...because Goudelock was actually better than anyone else in that draft class (better than Jimmer), but as it stands, as an NBA player, you have to consider it. Goudelock will get a lot of open shots when he does rake in a few minutes, though, that's for certain.

Definitely see them as a better team, and they've been looking for a legitimate back-to-the-basket post player for a long time...and now, they finally have one (and a good one). As long as Drew stays healthy, they should be good. I still don't see how they are going to replace the defense that Iguodala gave them at the three, though. That's a very important position, especially when you're in the East (LeBron, Pierce, Carmelo, Granger, Deng).

Harden will sign an extension...OKC shouldn't be worried about that. I wonder if they will actually explore trade options with Perkins, or just slap him with the amnesty after this upcoming season.

I can't even seriously begin to talk about Hibbert right now. Working him over on the defensive end is something all teams try to do, because it not only wears him down, but it also puts him into foul trouble almost 100% of the time. When Hibbert started to look dominant, Miami adjusted...but they aren't going to be able to do that to the Lakers. As you noted, the supporting cast is definitely not the same, and again, those passes are going to be hard to pick off (or prevent) with the Princeton + these scoring options, because the floor will HAVE to be spread out. LeBron is fast, but he doesn't have a 10-foot wingspan to cover that ground. Ron shot 40% from three in the last month or two of the season, and it was right after he stated he was healthy (posted about it on Twitter), so I believe him 100% when he says he was injured. For the first few months, he was absolutely horrible...to the point where I figured he was drinking before every game, shooting 20% or worse from three (was at 17% at one point). So, we have Nash, Ron, Blake and Goudelock shooting threes (Goudelock will see a little more time, I'm sure, especially with this offense). Blake is a career 39% 3PT shooter, and had his second bad season last year (the first being a long time ago), so I'm going to expect a higher percentage. Jamison can stretch the floor, shooting around 34-35% from three...so we'll have two three-point threats in our starting five, and 2-3 off the bench. Nobody can defend LeBron in an ISO, but if I had to pick one guy to hold him when he's posting up, it's Ron Artest...and I think you'd stick him up there as well. If we have Ron defending him when he posts up, and Howard/Gasol waiting for him in the paint, I'm confident we can prevent him from absolutely obliterating us. Wade is still a good player, but most of Kobe's defensive lapses come when he's roaming, and he gets lazy. People have talked shit about him for years when it comes to that. I doubt he'll be roaming as much. Wade struggled big time with Kobe back in March, anyway, while Kobe had his way with him on offense as well. I'm not concerned with Wade. We'll get killed on transition, that's a given. All teams get raped by Miami when they are running. Ray Allen won't be a problem because we're going to stick Blake on him again. Blake and Fisher decided to tail him every time we played the Celtics, and it wasn't an issue for us (until Fisher was frustrated with his 0-7 shooting, and let Allen get away a couple of times, but he still shot average in that game, poorly in the other). Ray will be spotting up much more, too, and he's definitely not used to standing around and waiting for someone like LeBron to find him. Allen's big gripe about the three-point contest was that he wasn't able to come off a screen and shoot those threes. It's almost rare to see a player try and create for a teammate (by penetration, for instance) who is coming off a screen and creating his own space...Mark Jackson couldn't even do that with Reggie effectively. Gasol can't even get on the low block with LeBron defending him. Bron is too strong, just pushes him right out of position, or he'll front him and jump ten feet in the air to disrupt the pass. Gasol will have the ball a lot in the high post, where he can analyze the defense and find cutters, or get the ball to Howard in whatever position he can get himself into (whether he's being fronted, or he's stepping out to try and face up, whatever the case). Gasol will never defend LeBron. I'm going to assume that Mike Brown will make sure of that, by directing Howard to step out instead. Gasol will go out and do what he can against, say, Battier...while Howard stays at home with Bosh. Can't see that as an issue because Battier does nothing but spot up, and Gasol will step out, just like he has plenty of times with Ray Allen (and he has blocked Ray more times than I can think of anyone blocking another Celtic player from this team, honestly...especially at the end of games). I haven't seen another Laker block more three-point shots than Gasol since Kobe in his prime. Miami will never be easy to defend, but I just don't see how the Heat are going to stop the Lakers. Even with what we had last season, I think we would have taken the Heat to six games, doing better than the Thunder did. Miami would have won, of course, but I think we would have pulled away with two and beat them the same way we did back in March. I always like to go back to the last two seasons. Are the Heat really that athletic? Wade has been slower for a couple of seasons now. LeBron and Bosh are really the only two athletic players in Miami (that are significant). Battier, Allen, Miller...they are far from it. Miami's average age was actually higher than LA's last season. Dallas, who had one of the oldest teams I've ever seen in 2011 (not really, but yeah), didn't have to run to beat the Heat...they sat back and played excellent basketball on both ends of the floor, found a way to use Chandler (Dwight) to keep LeBron out of the paint and Marion (Artest) to keep him out of the post, and forced him to take jumpers (in the 2012 NBA Finals, by the way, LeBron shot 18% on jumpers). Then, not too long ago, the Thunder (who you could argue are more athletic, collectively, and are by far the younger team...they lost in five games because Miami decided to attack their weaknesses (aka just stuck LeBron in the post, and used Bosh to stretch the floor). LA upgraded at the two positions Miami has trouble defending. They installed an offense that can fit perfectly with everyone on their team. They have ways to score from every single spot on the floor with superstar-esque scoring (which is rare...saw that from Boston in 2008, Showtime Lakers in the 80's). I think Miami has a reason to be concerned, just as much as the Lakers should have been in 2008. I mean, I still think the Heat should be worried about the Celtics and a possible seven-game series (because I think Jason Terry can be a bit more of a problem than Ray was, and a returning Bradley will cause problems as well), and even Chicago, if D-Rose comes back really early...so why would they look the other way?