Real Deal

Nah, really, that's not it...don't worry. The more people watching, the bigger the chance they jump in and turn this into a five-day debate, lol.

LOL @ the copy/paste job from the PM. My turn... I never said Billups played the two-guard in Detroit. I said he played like a combo guard. He set up for shots, he created his own, and he's a scoring two-guard that has to play the point because he lacks length to defend the longer two's. He did play minutes at the two in Denver, though. http://www.82games.com/0910/09DEN2.HTM#bypos That's just one season...I don't have time to look up the rest. And Rose is doing a lot more passing than usual. He creates far more than Billups ever did. Chauncey did a lot of spotting up for shots, feeding off of others. Rose creates for others, and gets his shots in as a primary option, a LeBron in a PG's body, of sorts. Westbrook has also created much more than Billups...just not this season. Last year, and the year before, he was playing like a PG...until the second half, where he became selfish, and into the playoff run. Teague is different. He doesn't have the ball in his hands enough to matter. If Johnson wasn't around, that could change everything. Teague puts up decent assist numbers, shoots probably 10 times a game, so it's really hard to tell if he's able to play as a very good PG. As you said, you're looking for someone on Stockton's level. That's a pretty high stepping stone. Stockton is the second greatest PG in history. Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Nash, Kidd, Zeke...if you're looking for those players, you'll only find one every decade or so, lucky to find two with Kidd and Nash. CP3 is pretty damn good, but hasn't had the support those others have had. David West doesn't match up to ANY teammates those guys had.

NO.

I don't dive into that stuff in PM's. The reason I post in debates is for the site only...and nobody can read along if it's in a PM. I wouldn't debate any member, even our veterans of seven years, because of that alone. Go ahead and hit the sheets, not a big deal. Maybe some others will join in tomorrow. I have work to do anyway.

Worthy was putting up over 21 a night (career average 17), on 49% FG, that season. Divac was giving LA 11 PPG, 8 RPG, and 57% FG. Perkins averaged 18 PPG on 55% FG in that playoff run for the Lakers in 1991. I'd say he was more than okay. He played like an all-star. Might as well say that. Both fed off of each other, which is why I'm considering the duo over the PG. I can't tell you what Stockton would do without Malone, just as much as you can't tell me what John Wall would have done with a prime Tim Duncan.

Meaningless if we're talking about a player passing at an elite level. Kidd's defense doesn't hold any water in the convo. Passing and defense are two separate things. Well, if we consider Billups a good passer, you opened up a can of worms, because Lowry is there. Rondo is elite compared to Billups. Same with Lawson. Rubio is incredible (forgot about him, he's part of the future, as you stated). Same with Curry, who is a better passer than Billups (and by the way, Billups has always been a scoring PG, more of a combo guard because of it). So we have CP3, Williams, Rondo, Wall, Rubio, Lowry...Irving could be in the mix if he had a teammate to pass to, but he hasn't played a full season yet, so no point in judging him. Again, you won't find another Magic, but what happens when you stick Rondo in there with three other all-stars (just like Magic had with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott and Green)? They win a championship. Rondo isn't Magic, but he has been incredible throwing passes most of his career. Give Rondo a LeBron James. Where does that team go? Probably as far as Malone and Stockton. James, with a defensive team around him, won 60+ games. The real problem is, superstars are now dominating the league, and pass-first players aren't getting 14 APG because they are either on a team with a ball-dominating superstar (like LeBron and Durant), or are on a horrible team with nobody to pass to. It's not the PG that has changed, it's the game itself.

The difference between me saying that Magic would have to team with Blatche...and Magic having James Worthy in 1991 (the last season Magic played, I don't consider the 32 games in 1996)...is incredibly huge. Worthy was twenty times the player Blatche was. In fact, that Lakers team also had Perkins, Scott and Divac, all players I consider better than Andray Blatche...and all three, plus Worthy, were double-digit scorers for Magic. Come on, dude. Stockton had six consecutive seasons under nine assists a night, to end his career, because Malone was declining. The first three seasons of Stockton's career? He didn't reach nine assists a game, and that was because Malone was not around, or averaging under 22 a night (15 PPG in one of those seasons). Once Malone hit 28 PPG, Stockton had his first 10+ APG seasons (13.8 APG, to be exact)...and once Malone fell to around 21 PPG, Stockton fell just as hard, eventually landing six consecutive under nine.

For how long? They are still there, so it's irrelevant. We don't know who will lead the NBA in passing 2-3 years from now. We just dipped into this new decade. The defense of the player is meaningless in this conversation. I was just pointing out that Detroit won because of their defense. Sure, Billups' passing did help, but he's also not an elite passing PG, not even close to CP3 or Rondo, let alone Nash or Kidd (or Magic and Stock). Again, what else Kidd did is meaningless in regards to the debate...but he did average around eight assists a night, so I'll just look away. Can't say he led that team, though, because the offensive leader was Dirk, and defensively, it was Chandler (and that can't be debated, as he was the anchor they always searched for). He's still a PG, relevant to the debate. He's a defensive liability, doesn't pass well, but his team won championships. Teams don't necessarily need excellent pass-first PG's to succeed. Look at the Miami Heat. The Thunder are the second best team in the NBA. The Bulls are the best. These three teams...one is led by a score-first PG, one depends heavily on a score-first PG, and the other have a starting PG that spots up from three, and a backup that's a score-first.

I think you're not giving some of these young guys a chance. Rondo's supporting cast is leaving, true...what if Magic was on a bottom-feeding team in the 80s? Even though he is incredible, I'm not so sure he would average those massive assist numbers. It's no coincidence that Stockton's numbers started to fall as Karl Malone dropped his scoring from 27 PPG to around 22-23. Even though Stockton was around 35 years old, we see guys like Nash and Kidd still throwing passes (Nash is days from 38 and still averaging over 10). We don't know what John Wall would do with credible teammates. Wall is an incredible passer. I would argue he's actually one of the best passers in the NBA, but what happens if Magic Johnson has to pass to Andray Blatche, and guys who don't make the most of that pass (like Young and Crawford)? Same with Irving, who is a rookie with little to work with.

If it wasn't me, it would be someone else, lol. There are a lot of guys that seek debates around here, and that probably runs off a lot of members. Could be a good thing, though, because many of those that take off would just get pissed off if they are proven wrong, or would continue to post until they started feeling the need to troll.

The Lakers won five championships with Derek Fisher. That's not just an exception that happens here and there, that's five rings, two without Shaq. Kidd finally got his ring...took him almost his entire career. He needed Dirk, Marion, Terry, Chandler, and a very good defensive squad to get it done. Billups will never win another as a lead contributor, and the Pistons didn't win because of Billups, they won because of their defense and having four all-stars on the same team. Nash is the only that that literally carried his team, as a PG, to success (his own system), and he never won it all, just like Stockton. CP3 did it with the Hornets. Williams got Utah to the WCF. My question is...if CP3 and Deron have done what Nash has done (with their teams, as the superstar), what's the big deal? I'm assuming you're looking for another Magic Johnson, and you won't find that for a long, long time. Magic was the 80s, Stockton was the 90s, Nash and Kidd were last decade, and CP3, Williams and Rondo are right now. I'm not seeing the problem.

Seems like Cousy was as well. So we have Magic and Stockton, Nash and Kidd. Two are still playing in this era. One is from the 80s, one dominated the 90s. Nash and Kidd did most of their damage in the 2000s. We can just take Nash and Kidd, then...same decade...and say we have CP3, Williams and Rondo. Sounds about right.

Cousy played with Heinsohn, Sharman and Ramsey, very good scorers...at the same time. Russell was in there as well, wasn't even a third option on that team...

Well, again, if we go back to your numbers (about Magic and Stockton, really), you're giving me two great passers...one in the 80s, one in the 90s. Only one of those won an NBA championship, despite being on a team with the second leading scorer in NBA history. Why doesn't Stockton have a ring? Because a Bulls team, with a selfish scorer in MJ (he was selfish, as was some of the greatest scorers of all time) and no solid pass-first PG to create for anyone, won six in the 90s...and when Jordan wasn't around, it was Hakeem and his Rockets, who also didn't need an elite pass-first PG.

Hell, Maravich never had 7+ APG in his career...so the number of assists have to be irrelevant.

Here...you gave me Bob Cousy for an example, so how's this: from 1947-1961, NO point guard had 10+ APG. Zero. How about, since you gave me Pistol Pete...from 1968-1977, only TWO point guards had 10+ APG.

Both Brown and Hodges were forced to play the point half of the time they were in their lineups, especially Brown. When Sherman Douglas would get rest, Brown would move to the point, and Kevin Gamble would play the two (or Reggie Lewis). Either way, there were plenty of PG's that didn't play the passing game very well. Hahaha, the assists leaders from 1984-1996 were all John Stockton and Magic Johnson, that's why. Just one season, Zeke led in assists...that's it. Stockton was there nine times in a row. And that's going to happen, when you combine one of the greatest PG's in the history of the league with a top two PF in NBA history...or Magic with one of the greatest Lakers squads of all time (Showtime, with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Green and Scott).

I'm starting to think Bogut just hates basketball. He's either missing games due to injuries, or he has a cold and misses a game, or has a funeral to attend, or has to go grocery shopping...something.

Next on the agenda: go straight to the FO and tell them Blatche is lazy in practice, lazy on the court, and is a huge detriment to the team and needs dealt.

Rose is 23.87, basically the same as CP3's...while Nash (who is pass-first and averages 10 APG) is at 22.52. Rondo (pass-first) is even lower than all of those above, at 20.44 (and he's averaging 9.4 APG), and Kyrie Irving is right above him. PER is irrelevant.

Look at Nash's turnovers since 2005 (Nash is one player you named). You mean like Pistol Pete was for most of his teams? He averaged up to 31 PPG at one point. Pistol is another you named. And you named Stockton (90s), Cousy (50s), Maravich (70s), Kidd (90s-00s), and Nash (00s)...different decades. What about the rest who weren't elite? Hersey Hawkins didn't pass the ball like a PG. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf? Gus Williams? BJ Armstrong? World B. Free? Dee Brown, Lindsey Hunter, David Wesley, Derek Fisher, Craig Hodges, Bimbo Coles, Dana Barros, Johnny Davis, Sedale Threatt, Robert Pack, Larry Drew, John Battle, Mookie Blaylock...what was the excuse when these PG's weren't going out and dominating the passing game (like a Nash or Magic)?

The Magic are embarrassing. They didn't look too bad to start the season, could have predicted that Dwight was happy, but I have no idea how he could be happy with this.

OKC had Durant over 30, Westbrook at or around 30 points, and Harden nearly had 20. They have a lot of firepower. It would be nice if Harden was a full-time starter. I think he contributes quite a bit off the bench, but OKC would blow people out easier if they just came in and tore the roof off early. It's not like Harden would be a conflict in that five, either, and there's no need to worry about bench production, as long as you keep one of the three scorers in the five throughout the game. He's playing big minutes, anyway.

Not sure why he wouldn't. I was watching MJ when I was six, back in 1989, and I distinctly remember his best games without having to watch them at my age right now. That's MJ, of course, but I can also recall almost every teammate from the Bulls team and remember them from those games, including Craig Hodges, Ed Nealy, and Charles Davis, before he won his first championship. The NBA was still using NBC back in 2001, if I recall correctly, and that was only 11 years ago. A lot of us on OTR are 18+ years old, and I'm sure most remember at 8-9 years old. Maybe a few guys were bigger fans of the game than others, and watched more than one team. I sure did, watched basketball at age six almost as much as I do at age 28, regarding live TV (excluding League Pass).

Chris Paul Deron Williams Rajon Rondo Those are three of the five best PG's in the NBA today, all young, and they pass the ball very well. Rose and Westbrook are the two exceptions, of course, but I can't really say that today's PG's are going away from that. You named Rubio, and I gave you three above. What about John Wall and Kyle Lowry, as well?