Real Deal

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Cutler... I made it clear that I didn't care what ANYONE said. I posted it once, and now I'm posting it again. I form my opinions based on what I know, not what someone thinks they know. Yeah, again, I stated that zone WAS played by teams in the 80s and 90s, but they had to commit to doubles, and it wasn't a strict zone. You show me an example from YouTube? Do you know how many games there were, how many possessions you've skipped over, in the 80s and 90s? I don't care about the quotes from other players. You take your time criticizing the last decade's defensive teams, but you have nothing. Those teams held their opponents to a worse FG% than ANY other teams in NBA history, and only 1/11 came from Jordan's era. Players' PPG means nothing. The league changed because of those that were drafted. The 2003-04 draft contained three dominant scorers, and one all-star scorer. The cap increased, and teams could afford to shed salary to add a big-time scorer to their roster, even if it meant having him all by himself (ala McGrady in Orlando). Didn't make it easier. FG% will tell you that. Players were smarter, and that explains the crazy decrease in FG%? Haha...well, okay. That's your explanation, because you don't have a legitimate reason. The jump is too steep to support your theory, and players are now stronger and more athletic, sorry. There are 3-4 reasons for it. Rodman was primarily a post defender. Alvin actually defended the point most of the time. Jordan wasn't playing when Moncrief won. It's all still irrelevant. Your numbers were wrong even if you add Moncrief. So, yeah, you are saying it... Anyway, I'm done talking about it with you. You dismiss everything by making up numbers, or bringing quotes into it, so there's no point in me going any further with it. We know you're obsessed with MJ. This is the most NBA posting you've ever done. But, it's all stuff that you haven't seen in your lifetime, and stats that are easily negated by the way teams and players played. Sorry.

I'm not going to reply to someone that truly thinks that Michael Jordan could score 100 points in today's game. Give me a break. I'm just going to assume you're kidding. And I don't need your copy/paste lecture about zone defense. If you're going to tell me about it, write it up yourself. You're a liar. Alvin Robertson Michael Cooper Michael Jordan Gary Payton Those were the only four "wing" DPOY winners from 1984 (Jordan's rookie year) to 1998 (Jordan's real retirement). Leave out MJ, and you have just three. And they all won the award once. http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/dpoy.html --------- As far as the rest of your post goes, Mark Jackson is one of a few that have said that Kobe is the best player they've ever seen. I don't really care what ANY of those guys say. Those that played in the Jordan era don't want to make the game sound easier for them, obviously. And, you don't get the concept of a zone defense, and having to commit to the double team. Yeah, it happened...and committing means Jordan had teammates open all over the place. It happened less than it should've. Bigs could camp in the paint? They still do. Not being able to, on defense, doesn't mean the zone is busted. You zone up around the perimeter, and have your bigs with a foot out of the paint. Have you ever seen a 3-2 zone? http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/32ZoneDefenseSet.GIF Nice job avoiding the fact that there were around 74 instances of a player scoring 15+ PPG and shooting 50% from the floor back in Jordan's era, and only 15-16 after he retired. You can say what you want...but the copy/paste stuff doesn't work, and if you're going to tell me something, make sure your info is accurate (ex. DPOY statement).

If they decrease the cap by that much, they'll be decreasing all player salaries along with it. For example, if the cap were to fall to, say, $40 million...that means that 85% of the payroll would be $34 million. There would be no way. A significant cap drop would call for all salaries to be lowered by a percentage, from 25-30% (proposal was 33%, at one point).

The Knicks still need to do what they can to make it work. Melo could be overrated in many eyes (not really mine), but he's a franchise player. When you pair a franchise player (Melo) with an all-star (Amare), you have a much better shot than you do today, and it will attract free agents.

I'm not really sure if Garnett would've been better for us. He busted his knee and hurt Boston's chances at a repeat. I wanted Ron Artest badly back in 2007. Remember the Boozer rumor? It's crazy that I was ready to deal Odom and Drew for Garnett OR Jermaine. I also remember a huge amount of the fanbase were wanting Gerald Green and James White in the draft. Good times. We were just scrambling for help.

He has deserved enough attention from those who actually know their basketball. Duncan has been the greatest PF to ever play the game for years, surpassing Karl Malone (despite the numbers saying otherwise). There are two players on the Spurs that are better right now, and it's Ginobili and Parker. They are playing with more energy, putting up the numbers and contributing to these wins, and it's only ironic that the Spurs are having their finest season to date with Duncan playing the lowest minutes of his career, averaging the least amount of points and boards, shooting nearly the worst percentage from the floor.

Rose. He's doing more with less (this helped LeBron get his). No Noah, Boozer still limping around and being on and off the court this season, and Rose stepping up his game on both sides of the ball (best defense he's played yet, and he's attacking more), there's no doubt he's in the discussion, and I'll go ahead and take him.

I can't agree with that. When Kobe wants to lock someone up, or be an excellent help defender, he can do it. I can't put Shaq in that boat, though, because in pick and roll situations, Shaq was one of the worst at defending them in NBA history...didn't matter if he wanted to or not.

I don't take it into consideration as much for many reasons... 1) The zone defense kept Bryant out of the paint, and prevented him from taking short jumpers. It had a visible effect on all guards after Jordan's era...by the numbers, or just by watching. 2) Kobe had to put up the most shots (more than Shaq after their first ring), facilitate the offense AND defend the best player on the court, all in a night's work. Jordan was getting IV's from his flu game. Kobe got them every few nights, just by playing. 3) Out of all teams that have held their opponents to 42% or less shooting in a season (there are 11 of them), only one of them is from Jordan's era. One is from the 70's, and the other nine are from 1998-2010...Kobe's era. I can't ignore that stuff. It's a big deal. I don't know how many times I saw Jordan get to the rim with just one defensive player on him, and nobody waiting because Jordan would have Pippen, Armstrong and Paxson all waiting for jumpers in the corners (hell, Armstrong shot .499 with the Bulls one season, and a career average of nearly 48% due to the way teams played other players). Stockton and Cheeks shot 57% in a season before. Have you ever seen a player do that? From 1984 (Jordan's rookie year) to 1998 (retirement), here are all guards that have shot 50% or better from the floor, while averaging 15+ PPG. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1998&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws There are a lot of them. From 1998-2011? http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1999&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws That's a big difference.

You can give me just one LA team that may have been better than Jordan's 72-win Bulls, and that's it. The Kobe/Gasol Lakers couldn't touch that Bulls team. Rodman would turn Gasol into Shawn Bradley, and because we are terrible at closing out on shooters, the Bulls would light us up, even if Jordan and Kobe were locking themselves down. Kobe and Shaq didn't have much help, at all, and that's what was different between the first dynasty Lakers, and the two dynasty Bulls teams. Chicago's two runs had guys like Grant in the post, Longley (who was an underrated defender, probably just because he was white and goofy), a plethora of shooters that not even LeBron had when he was in Cleveland (including Paxson, who won the 1993 Finals series with a three that Jordan kicked out to him), monster defenders in Pippen (one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time) and Rodman (THE greatest defensive player of all-time, among all positions)...it was a team built to perfection, surrounded by a player that, after he started hitting from long range here and there, really had no weaknesses to his game. Scottie could've taken a team to the Finals. I would bet $500 if I could. He had a big chance, but came up short...and if he had that one other person, to take the load off of him on defense, he could've done it. He carried Grant, Kukoc, Armstrong and Kerr to a 55-win season and a 4-3 loss to the same Knicks team that went on to lose to the Rockets, in the Finals, in seven games. They were 6th in the NBA in defense, top half of the league in scoring. In fact, they were ranked higher, defensively, than they were in 1990-91 and 1992-93, and Pippen's defensive rating was stellar, the best of his career, and better than any defensive rating Jordan ever had.

As I was saying earlier, the Magic would be one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA without him. With him, they have been able to creep up on 60 wins over the last few years. In fact, Howard is the best defensive player since Dennis Rodman...and the only reason why Rodman wasn't a superstar is because he was horrible with the ball, and you couldn't build a team around him. Orlando has built a Finals team around Howard. His defense does far more than given credit for.

Yeah, but it's just the numbers. People wouldn't dare compare Tim Duncan's numbers to Barkley's or Malone's, but we know he's the greatest PF to ever play the game because he was as complete as you can get for a big man.

The Chicago Horace Grant was as good as Gasol...he put up double-doubles (around 15/10) and shot over 50% for the first ten seasons of his career, and was nearly putting buckets in at 60% one season, think it was the year they played Portland. Didn't play defense, though (neither does Pau).

Growing up and watching my two favorite players play since 1989. At the end of the day, it's all personal opinion, because you can't stick numbers behind anything and prove a point like that. By the numbers, Tracy McGrady was a more dominant offensive player than O'Neal (who never averaged 30). Jordan got to the rim easier. He was an athletic nut, one of the most athletic players in the history of the game. He was far stronger than he looked, and he also had huge hands. Mid-range, uncontested, who knows...but contested? It's Kobe. Long range? Kobe. Post games are close. Jordan had a more dominant fadeaway, while Kobe had better footwork. Jordan has Kobe in slashing to the rim, dunking, finishing at the rim, rebounding and defense (and it's close, when Kobe actually has to lock someone down). Kobe takes Jordan in mid-range, long-range, passing, footwork, and longevity. Post game is a toss-up. Kobe breaks doubles better, shoots over them FAR better. Jordan is better with contact, and was faster for a while. If Kobe would actually put more effort into his defense, AND if Phil wouldn't ask him to roam every single game (mainly to help Fisher and our bigs), he would be the better overall player. I still could make the argument for him right now, and tomorrow, I'll say Jordan is. Next Thursday, I'll tell you Kobe. Factor in the awards and accomplishments, Jordan is the GOAT. Remove them, and things change a bit. Once it comes down to watching two guys dominate their opponents, you get a better feel for their games. Looking at stats, I don't know how well Jordan played certain defenders, or defensive strategies, or how well he played when his teammates were absolutely horrible, or if he played worse when they were involved, etc. No way of telling by stats...just by watching.

As much as I hate Gasol this year, Pau would eat his lunch...and Griffin is a double-double monster that passes far, far better than Bosh does. Sadly, even LaMarcus Aldridge is putting up big numbers, and actually winning games with an injured roster, in a tougher conference. I'm not going to say he's overrated, but there's no way he's arguably the second best PF in the NBA. Not a chance. EDIT: Can't leave out Garnett, who is on a team with three other all-stars and is putting up better rebounding numbers, a higher percentage shooting, and is 5,000 times the defender.

I'm not sure if he's really overrated. This summer, he was...but mainly by ESPN and a bunch of homers. Bosh's FG% has dropped slightly because he's trying to adjust to being this player he's really not used to playing as. It's understandable, and I won't slam him for that, even though I can't stand the pipe neck. And, it's his second-highest FG% since 2006, and higher than his career average. Does 19/8 get you into the ASG? It probably shouldn't, unless you're an excellent defender (Garnett, Horford), but the East doesn't have much more to choose from. Boozer should've been in there instead, but who knows...

There's no point in comparing the numbers. Jordan didn't have O'Neal averaging 25-30 PPG by his side, nor did he have Phil Jackson up until 1989 (it's obvious that Phil limited him, just like Jax did Bryant). The triangle promotes passing. Jordan wasn't always asked to facilitate, but Kobe has since the very first day he took the starting role...asked to facilitate AND take the most shots since the 2000-01 season, all while feeding Shaq as well. It's worthless comparing the two in that manner.

I'm changing my pick to Tim Duncan, because I don't think he was an all-star this season, and definitely not a starter. He's got a career low in points, rebounds and nearly field goal percentage (second worst), and even shot attempts, and free throw attempts.

Jordan is with him. Bryant has missed 11,358 shots in his career. Jordan missed 12,345. Sadly, Jordan reached that number in 14 seasons (combining the two partial seasons he played, or else it would be 15).

Deron Williams. He's not the best PG in the NBA. EDIT: Changing my pick to Tim Duncan. See why in a few posts.

Before I start explaining anything...do not abuse this privilege. You guys have been fine without it for six years, and I won't hesitate to go back to the word filter. I just want to give you guys some breathing room, and most of you are older teens or adults to begin with. So, please, don't jump into a topic and post a word 50 times, over and over, just because I'm doing this. Also, I'm asking that we still keep the post quality high. Our quality has been very good. Dropping the filter can have a negative effect, but I trust that we'll be fine. http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/18178-drop-the-word-censor Most wanted it done, so hopefully, this is going to be a good idea. Activity can pick up, members who left in the past because of the filter (no idea why anyone would do that) can change their mind, and we can make it work. There are two words in the ban filter...one is a racial slur, one is usually related to homosexuals. Those won't be posted because they'll be used to personally attack members, and I'm not going to lay that out on the table for everyone to grab. It won't really be a trial period, but I'll pay close attention to our post quality, and I'll make the best decision for the site when it's all said and done. OTR houses some of the best basketball posters out there, and we've sacrificed our activity to eliminate all of our trolls (most forums welcome trolls, to promote the baiting and activity, and the outcome is the site losing their best members). Everyone here seems mature enough to handle it, so I suppose I should say thanks for that as well. I wouldn't run a site if it contained a bunch of adolescent teens that spent their time trashing other sites, their own community, and posting worthless posts.

Barkley was actually joking. He was one of my favorite players back in the late 80s and 90s, and I watched him all the time. Aside from the fighting and him spitting on a fan, he didn't do anything stupid like that on the court (and if he did, it was once). Jordan brand? Huh? MJ would "woop" Kobe one-on-one? Do you have proof? A second-year Kobe didn't have too much trouble with him in the 1997 ASG, an MVP year for Jordan. Their first real regular season meeting (Kobe playing more than 13 minutes, and they actually defended each other, Kobe did pretty damn good, and Jordan was still a Bull. 12/17/1997 Kobe - 33 PTS (12-20 FG, 60%), 3 REB, 2 AST, 0 TO Jordan - 36 PTS (12-22 FG, 55%), 5 REB, 4 AST, 4 TO Their second meeting, Jordan scored more and did better, but he also shot just 42% against Bryant (who shot 44% against MJ), and Jordan put him in foul trouble. Again, this is a second-year Bryant against Jordan, who was in an MVP season (and on his way to his sixth ring). But, okay. You know what's even more hilarious? Jordan complained about contact just as much. He just wasn't as animated. He would cuss at the ref, stare him down, and constantly talk to him on the floor. I'm sure you'd know this, since you watched Jordan throughout the 80s and 90s...right?

Weird. So size does matter? That means Ibaka's dunk wasn't that impressive? Guess that also means Nate deserved to win every year, as did Spud. Or, maybe it's just a reason to try and turn DeRozan into something he's not: a dunk contest winner. But oh yeah, it's definitely rigged. Everything is when it doesn't go someone's way. Blake was more powerful (by miles), had more ups, had the more impressive windmill vs. DeRozan's 2010 dunk, and did three other dunks that have never been seen in an NBA dunk contest before (VC's elbow, but with the throw, more difficult). Combine all of that, and you have a winner. Can't change the past by whining about it. Check this image out: http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/184334_10150094029750924_194822060923_6461617_2674233_n.jpg I laughed at this one: http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/185775_10150093683755924_194822060923_6458107_3814425_n.jpg