Real Deal

He retired for a season and a half. His second retirement, he was already suffering from the destroyed index finger (just like Bryant's), hurting knees, and he didn't look like the MJ we saw in his first three championship runs. It was obvious he was declining, and even less efficient...had a LOT of trouble shooting the ball in the Finals as well, despite the Jazz rarely double-teaming him (which led to Bryon Russell thinking he was better than MJ, his quote). I don't really consider his stint with Washington when I discuss a topic like this. Maybe when Bryant is all said and done. Jordan would've had eight rings, though (not falling for the hype about Houston, but that was meant for another topic), although, if we play that game, we can talk about Kobe and Shaq having more if they got along, and if Phil arrived in 1996, instead of 1999.

Paul Pierce. He's going to be known as one of the greatest Celtics of all-time, while people will look at Ray 20 years down the road and see a few teams and threes, and they'll relate to him as the catch-and-shoot player. An all-star, of course, but a glorified Reggie Miller of sorts. Slightly underrated, to be honest.

The best defensive teams in the history of the game were from 1999-2010. 2003-04 Spurs 1997-98 Spurs 2003-04 Rockets 2003-04 Pistons 2003-04 Wolves 1999-00 Lakers 2000-01 Knicks 2007-08 Celtics 2000-01 Spurs 2002-03 Kings 1971-72 Bucks The 71-72 Bucks were the only team outside of that era to hold their opponents to .420 FG or less. Zone defense is more effective than hand-checking. Hell, players still get away with hand-checking today. Players were getting too aggressive, and fouls were still being called. Zone is effective both with or without the aggressive play. You set up a zone, and if a team wants, they keep Kobe out of the paint all game long, no matter what. Granted, other players will get theirs, but if the team really wants Kobe to shoot and never drive, it's done. What Jordan did was amazing, but it's overrated. Aside from the Jordan Rules (from the Pistons, and later the Knicks), he didn't face much from a team standpoint, and the Jordan Rules were put aside because Mike would just pass to one of MANY shooters, such as Kerr, Paxson, Kukoc, Armstrong, Hodges, and even Pippen, and teams were forced to stick one player on him. It's too bad Kobe wasn't an 80s or 90s superstar.

I don't look at efficiency because players were far more efficient back then...meaning, guards. It's amazing...30-40 different guards, 15+ PPG, shot over 50% from the floor in Jordan's era. You don't see that today. Just the other day, Kobe stated that if he had a chance to change the game, he would remove the zone defenses. Jordan did face zones here and there, but the doubles were forced to commit to the player, so he didn't see them as often because, to be legal defense, teams HAD to leave one guy open. Made the game easier, no matter what anyone says...it's a no-brainer. The greatest defensive teams have played superstars like that, with a modified zone, and it goes from the 2008 Celtics to the 2004 Pistons, a couple of the Spurs teams, etc. Also, defensive specialists have been getting much, much more playing time in Bryant's era. Bowen, Afflalo, T-Allen, Battier, Bell, Matthews, Batum, Varejao, D-Jones, Chalmers (who starts over a better offensive player in Arroyo), Ariza, Sefolosha, even Artest...and the list goes on...most of the perimeter defenders do nothing but spot-up and play defense. Back in the 80s and 90s, basketball was more team-oriented. The idea was to stop the team. When Detroit and New York decided to use the Jordan Rules, they still couldn't get the job done for that very reason...the physical defense, double teams, and constant switching of defenders did three things: it drew more fouls, left Jordan's teammates open (still no zones) and had a negative effect on their offensive production. Jordan was more efficient, and he has a higher average (in a season and career), more points. Bryant has more ways to score the ball, more range, and the higher point total in a game. It's hard to convince me that Kobe couldn't have averaged 37 PPG (or better) if Phil wasn't around that season, AND if he had more shots at it (he was with Shaq from 1996-2004). Jackson sat Kobe out of the fourth in his 62-point game against Dallas. He sat Kobe for a quarter when he dropped 57 and 56 against Memphis and Washington. Bryant could've had three 70-point games, not including his 81. People that didn't watch LA every game have no idea how Jackson tried to put the ball in Odom's hands, hoping he could facilitate, then to rely on Kobe in isolations later on. It was crazy. Bryant had a 42-point first half one time. In the 81-point game, he dropped 55 in the second half. So don't bother giving me just the numbers. Wilt scored like he was playing on a seven-foot rim. Him and Kareem rebounded like they were on one. Shaq never averaged 30 PPG in his career, mainly because he was next to Bryant, and in an offense implemented by Phil. Bryant is the more versatile scorer, and has faced more traffic than any player not named Shaq. He's so versatile and has so many options, he's still doing it despite the TONS of miles already logged, a longer duration of prime than Mike and any player I can think of in the last 20-30 years (even Malone, argue Kareem), and it's all because of the number of ways he can score the ball. Jordan is the GOAT. Kobe is the better scorer.

LeBron took full advantage of our bigs in the 4th. I saw it coming...even stated it about two minutes before he started. Gasol is such a pansy. Duncan looked like he was sleeping on a dunk of his (really weird). I loved how the East started stacking players around Bryant in the 4th, too. They had a guy on him (usually it was Johnson) and had one of their other four close enough to collapse, or they would bring the double (hell, they doubled him a few times just because he was bringing the ball up the floor, lol). Durant fed off of it, and he actually dropped in some big buckets, and that's how we ended up winning. Kobe drops that 37 in an ASG, just five away from Wilt, and I believe he's what...3rd or 4th on the ASG single-game scoring list? Equally impressive would be the 14 boards, 10 being o-boards (WTF), and the really good defense he played all night, the dunk on LeBron, ripping Wade twice, playing like it's a playoff game. Beast. Clear-cut MVP.

I seriously can't believe OSU lost that game. I figured it would be close, but still...

I wasn't comparing those two, but again, you wouldn't want to talk about DeRozan's 50 from last year's contest. And I could care less if I'm changing anyone's mind. It's simple logic. There are some on OTR that realize it as well, and obviously, so did the judges...ironically, all of them being dunk legends. Sorry.

Baron Davis screwed the pass up 3-4 times. The first and second attempt, Blake was going for a different dunk...but okay. And Griffin's dunk looked far better. DeRozan took the windmill to the center? He barely did the windmill. You don't drop a guy 10 points like that. A 40 would be ridiculous. DeRozan didn't even deserve a 50 for it last season, because Iggy would've made it look five times better. I knew people would be sour about it, though. People are pissed he's in the all-star game, they are pissed he's dunking on their guys, and they are pissed because he won the dunk contest. You guys are going to be pissed off for a long time.

I think it would be a historical NBA moment if he decided to demand a trade to the Cavaliers.

Kobe, Howard, CP3 vs. Melo, Amare, D-Will in the NBA Finals? -_-

The funny part is, if you ask someone why Nate and Spud couldn't do it, and they were actually willing to answer the question (instead of avoiding it), they would say something like this... "Because Nate and Spud are too short, and don't have the wingspan to finish the dunk." Then, if you ask why Ibaka's dunk was so impressive, they say... "Because Ibaka is too tall and long to be able to dunk like that." It's funny, really. And you can tell how much he benefits from his height and length in this video below, when he does the FT line dunk to win the contest in Europe... http://acbtv.acb.com/video/843-lacb-20082009-vuelos_imposibles_en_el_concurso_de_mates The fact that nobody can avoid is that the shorter you are, and the more you weigh, the harder it is to dunk. You're taller, and you don't weigh as much? You can jump out of the building. Simple as that.

If he was 285 pounds, they'd be able to explain it...but with him weighing just 235, no...they can't.

http://i54.tinypic.com/eb5tmp.jpg

http://www.nba.com/lakers/photos/109298086_10.jpg http://www.nba.com/lakers/photos/109297288_10.jpg PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN!

Man, I felt so bad for Iggy. He looks just like LeBron. I feel bad for that, too.

Go to 3:05. DeRozan gets a 50 for the same exact dunk, with a less impressive windmill.

So the Knicks will look like this... C - Amare Stoudemire | Ronny Turiaf PF - Shawne Williams | Anthony Randolph SF - Carmelo Anthony | Bill Walker SG - Landry Fields | Tony Douglas PG - Chauncey Billups | Anthony Carter ??? Worst bench in the history of basketball, and a starting PF that should never start a game, and that's really a SF?

KD screwed up. He wasn't even jumping to shoot those shots, almost like he was afraid that time was going to expire. Terrible stuff from him. I did NOT want Pierce to win. Ray, I really don't mind...but Pierce? No way. Wow, didn't know that...and I don't remember him winning it. The damn analysts lied (TNT guys), too...but it's my fault for believing them.

You're the one that was wanting to discuss creativity, which led to what I said, mocking you about it. Actually, Blake's windmill was a little different, and better (more defined). You can look at the video if you want, or not. Free throw line dunks are done all of the time, not just in the NBA. He should've gotten a higher score on it, definitely, but not a 50. If he doesn't get a 50, he doesn't advance. But, okay.

HE GOT A 49 ON HIS SECOND DUNK. Did you want him to get a 70? And his first dunk has been done before. You didn't like Griffin's second dunk? DeMar got a 50 by doing the same exact dunk last year. Did you not want to watch that vid? Don't worry, I know why you're doing this. Or Samuel Dalembert, who is a point guard... If Ibaka was a 6-10, 285-pound Andrew Bynum clone, he wouldn't be able to do the dunk. Instead, he's 6-10 and rail thin at 235 pounds. Kobe weighed in at 235 pounds a couple of times in his career, post-Shaq days. It's not much weight at all for a 6-10 PF. You ignored what I said about Nate, because if you answered it, you'd be wrong about what you said. You might as well just ignore the rest, also. It's logic. The length of a player is an advantage when grabbing rebounds and defending players, and even contesting shots. It's an advantage in a dunk if you don't weight the same as Shaq or Yao. How is that so difficult to understand? What player dunked on a 12-foot rim in the dunk contest? Dwight Howard, who is a center. Do I really need to keep going with this? My job here is done. You can [expletive] about it to someone else.

Do I need to quote my post for you? Here, re-read it. Not creative. Many have done it. IF we're just talking about creativity, Ibaka's dunk was weak. And, again, longer wingspans, with less weight, will make it an easier dunk. Want proof? Nate Robinson has a higher vertical than Serge Ibaka. Can Nate dunk from the free throw line? By the way, Samuel Dalembert has done it. Can't find it on YouTube, but it used to be on there. The only thing I found was a dunk one step inside, and he gets this EASILY, with a foul. He wasn't in the NBA when he did it, though...but he was the same frame and an inch taller than Ibaka when he did it. Also...Serge is 235 pounds. It's not a lot of weight to take off with. LeBron is a good 260 (25 pounds heavier), and he nearly got it. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-LeBron-James-dunks-from-free-throw-line-?urn=nba-121604 Don't overrate the dunk.

Oh, this is going to be awesome. Want to see DeRozan's dunk from last year? Go to 3:05 and look at DeMar's dunk from last year. It's a 50, and it's the same exact dunk Griffin did...and Griffin's was a nicer windmill. He gets all 10's from the judges? Why didn't Blake get that? :laughing: And Jordan was behind the line, Pippen was a half an inch behind it. I have the Jordan dunk on my Ultimate Jordan DVD's. Same exact spot that Serge jumped from. Sorry. LOL, and he got two of the three highest scores in the contest for those dunks...BOTH in the first round. Get it through your skull dude, I shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over again. He lost, his fault, get over it and move on.

And he got a 50 for it. He should've done it in the second round. He got a 49 for his second dunk, even though Kobe has done a version of it in-game (without the bounce, of course). Had he dropped it in backwards, without turning to the rim, he would've deserved the 49 (similar to the dunk that J-Rich performed, but he actually went under the legs and did a one-handed reverse, a dunk that blows DeMar's out of the water). If it's all about creativity, Ibaka's FT line dunk was pretty weak. The one dunk that had the most value to it (in terms of it needing to be HUGE to secure the win)...it was McGee's worst dunk, and the worst dunk of the contest.

It's too bad you aren't understanding what it means to do a real 360, and starting it after your jump...but okay. So 8 out of every 10 guys in the league can do it? LOL, please. If it's so easy, why is he the first to do it in an NBA dunk contest? You'd think others would do it. Jumping over a car is difficult. It's NOT like jumping over a person, because you have to make sure your toes clear. You line up a person and jump over him with your legs spread out. You can't do that with a car. And the height of the car isn't even the bigger factor. When you combine it with the width AND the catch (which was low), it's a very good dunk. This isn't NBA Live's dunk contest, and nobody in their right mind will attempt to clear a car from the roof, unless they are on the Flight Team and practice dunks every day of their lives. People can be pissed off all they want. Griffin won, and he deserved it because McGee screwed up his 4th dunk, badly. DeRozan's first dunk wasn't that special. Ibaka did something that has been done over and over again, and I believe even Pippen jumped with his toe behind the line (not just Jordan). EDIT: Pippen was barely inside of it. Hard to tell, but Jordan gets it here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REt6HbdCT6c There are other vids from the 85 dunk contest that show it better (one that was from a Jordan DVD), but I can't find it right now. And no, I'm not a Blake stan. I actually like him, one of my favorite players right now...but his dunk contest doesn't touch Vince's, and I absolutely can't stand Carter. I thought Kobe's wasn't that great. I don't mind telling someone how it is, no matter what player we're talking about...but tonight, it was obvious that McGee screwed up. Tell me that McGee gets into the final round and does the Jordan mock and the double-dunk to try and beat Blake? I probably give it to him as long as he didn't take forever with that double-dunk. Also, when Dwight did the mini-hoop dunk, they never stopped the clock to "reload" it. The clock should've never been stopped for Ibaka, and McGee's three-ball dunk shouldn't have counted because he used the rim for assistance, if we're going to judge them this seriously.

They should've gotten the same score on it, and DeRozan should've gotten a 48 for his second dunk (that wasn't a 50). I can run through Jordan's two dunk contests and give you a handful of dunks that were better than DeMar's second dunk, and I can also show you a few that were better from J-Rich and Desmond Mason. Technically, DeRozan should've been in the finals, because McGee's three-ball dunk should've been a "no-dunk" due to hanging on the rim (they mentioned the rules on that a few years back)...sort of like if Blake had decided to jump off the car, they wouldn't have let him because it's assistance. However, that's just how it is. I think the other three are lucky that Griffin didn't make his first two dunks on the first try, because both would've went down in history as top 5-6 dunks in the contest, especially the first one.