Real Deal

Because I didn't get to see the full game, it's time for me to go to the box... 1ST QTR: 2-3 FGA (and 2 FTA) 2ND QTR: 1-2 FGA 3RD QTR: 1-1 FGA (and 4 FTA) 4TH QTR: 1-3 FGA Funny that the box score says he went 4-7 though, and just 2-2 from the FT line... http://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/boxscore/NBA_20101222_DET@TOR But I ripped the numbers directly from the play-by-play, and he was 5-9, six total free throws attempted... http://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/playbyplay/NBA_20101222_DET@TOR

Iggy seriously choked to end this game. I don't think I saw much out of him, at all, in that fourth quarter, and the Sixers needed him on both sides of the ball to be able to maintain that small lead they had.

A little surprised, but it makes you wonder what that type of reliance will do for this team (or not do for this team) in the post-season.

LOL, that's just it. I watched the game. A +/- statistic doesn't tell you any of that for that particular player, only that particular five-man unit. You can "adjust" it all you want, but here's the thing: adjusted +/- is based on the raw +/- stats of the other players and opponents, which are STILL inaccurate because, when they are used to adjust for others, they aren't adjusted themselves. You have to start somewhere. The statistic is inaccurate, big time. An assist is a two-way street: you have to throw it, and your teammate has to convert it. THIS statistic is a five-way stop. You, and your four teammates, have to convert and make stops for you to actually get a good +/- in a game, a run of games, and throughout the season. ...and that's irrelevant, because Walton is playing mostly in garbage time, and so is that five-man unit. Gasol plays a lot of his minutes against second units and in garbage time. Bryant comes back into games when the best players (of the opposition) are in. A five-man unit that isn't challenged will obviously look better than the starting five that was the core that won the NBA championship, but you're willing to say that the leading five-man would be better (more valuable) than the Lakers' starters? And no, this isn't similar to PPG or any other individual statistic. Bryant scores his 25-26 PPG by shooting the ball. Some of his points are assisted on, but not by four other players at once, like this statistic is. Here's the topic title: Kobe is the 19th least valuable player in the NBA Here's my question: if this statistic determines value, why wasn't Chris Andersen a top MVP candidate based on being the sixth-most valuable last season? Funny thing...when I was working at a refinery a few years back, I had three other co-workers, and they were pathetic. We got little done in a day, and to be honest, it was all because of them. However, and I don't mean to brag...I worked my ass off and was very efficient. If there was a raw +/- statistic for me, it would be ugly because of my co-workers...and there would be no way of adjusting it to provide a more accurate number because, quite frankly, there's no way of knowing my production (or body of work) in the first place. If this site wants a true +/- statistic, it should somehow adjust it based on points scored, and nothing more. But, even then, it's inaccurate because it doesn't consider the teammates' inability to create for themselves, or create for Bryant, or Bryant's shooting percentages with each and every player in the lineup (a good example of this is when you see Gasol getting better +/- stats despite shooting poorly). Give me a statistic that "ranks" the players, and it better consider everything. Otherwise, it's just as useless as me ranking them by turnovers per game and calling the top half of those guys the most valuable. You would argue how ignorant that is, to the death (I would hope), and so would everyone else. Bryant runs the offense AND is the primary scoring option. The defensive attention he draws gives Gasol easier looks (which the stat doesn't account for, either). His roaming on defense allows Gasol to help on Fisher's man, who always gets to the rim. That statistic won't show that value, either. When teams screen the Lakers to death (switching Bryant over to defend the point guard position, or the three), and the bigger player takes Fisher into the post and scores on him over and over again (ex. Phoenix all of those years they played us), it hurts Bryant even more. I'm not looking for an "end-all" conclusive statistic that ranks the players, because there isn't one...but this particular stat sure the hell isn't it, and it doesn't even come close. You guys can keep discussing it, whatever...doesn't make any sense for me to waste my time on this.

Just saw that Griffin dunk...whoa.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, haha. A trio of Amare, Melo and Felton would be pretty nasty.

I think Young could've held back on that three he took, near the end of the game (can't remember how many seconds were left on the clock), but Washington just blew this game.

Problem is, one person doesn't cut, or increase, the lead. Hayes, Scola, Budinger, Battier and Ish in the game at once could be a disaster. Are you telling me you can get an idea of how good Scola is based on how that five-man unit plays? Maybe Scola is being defended by Garnett, and no matter what he does on offense, the other four are being obliterated by Boston's starting five at the other end of the floor, and Scola's +/- statistic suffers for it.

Looks like Trevor Ariza needs to go back to a contender and spot-up for the rest of his career.

LMAO at the Calderon comments. I laughed at that last post, Sean. Calderon's worst game of the season (that I've seen, at least). Tank job in full effect, or is Detroit suddenly a playoff team? :o And, oh yeah...T-MAC! Best I've seen him over the last couple of years, lol.

I'm going to be honest: I'm pretty sure that I could get a layup in this game. It seems like the paint is open 75% of the time, and when someone even steps a toe into it, they are steps away from an open layup or dunk, completely uncontested.

Ha. I wonder which player would talk back to him first. I'd say Kwame, but I think he's scared to death of Mike. And, about Brown coaching a bad team...not that big of a surprise. He wants to coach any group of guys that respects him and his defensive mentality. I think Charlotte's season was done the day they lost Felton.

Because the values don't reflect the player accurately in the first place, I don't see how it's even adjusted. Doesn't make much sense. The site would be better off producing the +/- values of the five-man units, then writing a small disclaimer telling the world that even those are inaccurate because the particular five don't always play the best five from the opposing team. Well, it doesn't look like it right now. Adjusted, he's apparently the worst on the team. He scored 45% of the team's points, and he locked his man up. A true +/- statistic would show that he, alone, was a +/- of around 25-30, as adjusted by him scoring 41 and not allowing more than 10-11 points total. If Bryant throws 10 passes to Ron Artest, and he goes 1-10 from the floor AND the Lakers blow a 15-point lead because Derrick Caracter plays horrible defense against a surging Amare down low, guess who gets the blame for it in the +/- statistic? Haha, that's right, Kobe does, and no "adjustment" changes that. Producing arguments isn't about fishing for disagreements, it's about believing in what you are arguing. Kelly Dwyer posts articles that he knows, for a fact, that people will have problems with. Journalism is about drawing attention, but there are many ways of doing that. People read your articles and links...but, usually, it's difficult to disagree with anything you say in your team analysis, so there's really nothing to argue. That's the good thing. But, I really don't believe you are sold on Kobe being the 19th least most valuable in the NBA. All I want to read is you agreeing that Kobe is possibly the least valuable Laker on the team. That's all. And, well, that Chris Andersen was an MVP candidate last year, even top 10. If you can do either (or both) of those, I'll start taking the statistic more seriously (only in this discussion). I'm very surprised, because Luke Walton is a horrific player...and Steve Blake isn't performing well on the defensive end, and still having trouble back on offense. Deviation error? Larger sample size? Just take last year's leading five-man unit, if you want to laugh... C - Jermaine O'Neal PF - Udonis Haslem SF - Dorell Wright SG - Daequan Cook PG - Carlos Arroyo Want to know Boston's best five-man unit last season (as big of a sample size as you can get)? According to the accurate basketballvalue.com... C - Shelden Williams PF - Rasheed Wallace SF - Marquis Daniels SG - Ray Allen PG - Eddie House For the sake of not actually digging the hole and sticking that site in its own grave, I'll stop there.

It would be interesting to see Jordan coach the team...

No, it doesn't adjust to teammates. That's the problem. It relies HEAVILY on who Bryant (for instance) is in the game with. If Phil Jackson plays Bryant with a four of Ratliff, Caracter, Ebanks, and Blake most of the time, you're going to see his +/- stats suffer significantly because that five would be pathetic on the court together. If it could talk, the statistic for Bryant says, "Hey, this is how Kobe Bryant's five-man units do on the court together." http://www.nba.com/games/20101212/LALNJN/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore Bryant dominated in this game, Gasol was horrific on offense and was getting abused by Brook Lopez and Kris Humphries down low. Gasol still gets the better +/- statistic. http://www.nba.com/games/20101128/INDLAL/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore Kobe went absolutely nuts in this game, dropped 41 and locked up everyone he defended, yet he doesn't get a higher +/- statistic than Odom, Brown, Caracter, or Blake? Those four, together, put up 22 points...almost half of Bryant's 41, yet the +/- statistics favor those guys? And, why would the numbers eventually even out and show Kobe's true value at the end of the season? The sample size, small or large, shouldn't be showing him as the worst player on the team right now. There's no legitimate reason, none at all, to think that. That 2009-10 list is horrible. Let me put it this way: your topic title says that Kobe is the 19th least most valuable player in the NBA. Nothing more. Using the 2009-10 stats (and keep in mind that these are more normal, correct?), is it safe to create a topic saying that Chris Andersen was the sixth most valuable player in the league, above Deron Williams, Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Bosh and Tim Duncan? I really don't think there's any more for me to say about it. I might as well go rank players based on their turnovers per game. By the way...based on this amazing site, the best Lakers unit is... C - Pau Gasol PF - Luke Walton SF - Matt Barnes SG - Shannon Brown PG - Steve Blake And not only that hell of a gem, but that particular five-man unit is ranked 11th in the NBA. Arguably the best team in the league, the Spurs, doesn't have a unit placed in that list until 34th. http://basketballvalue.com/topunits.php?year=2010-2011&sortnumber=17&sortorder=DESC It's almost laughable how bad it is. The host seriously needs to shut the site down.

Three home losses... vs. Suns vs. Pacers vs. Bucks All below .500 in the standings, and none of those games came off a back-to-back (on either side of it). LOL. Sad.

Haha, I loved seeing this tonight...the three best players for the Lakers against the Bucks (Kobe, Gasol and Odom) had the three worst +/- statistics. Kobe: -22 Gasol: -21 Odom: -18 The best was from Luke Walton, one of just two players who contributed with a positive +/- statistic (+3), despite his 1-3 shooting and basically nothing else. Devin Ebanks gave us a +2, zeros all the way across his statsheet (yes, no joke), and just 1:29 playing time. Kind of similar to Shannon Brown's +13 in that Philly game, where he shot 0-4 and contributed just one single assist and one foul (nothing else) in 12 minutes. Third on the team in +/- for that game. I'm not even sure why this statistic even exists, to be honest.

Kobe was ejected late in the game, and then he refused to speak to the media after it was over. Haha, not surprised.

If this is correct, it means that Kobe Bryant is playing incredibly bad, as in, Adam Morrison bad. And if Gasol has been terrific, his ten-game span of an average of 42% shooting was ignored, not to mention his pathetic defense and lackluster late-game production. PER (another useless stat) says that Bryant is the best player on the Lakers, followed by Gasol, Odom and Brown. More realistic, sad to say. If Bryant is anywhere near the worst player on the squad (even anything less than third best), Pau Gasol is a superstar and a top three player in the NBA.

Add in the missed layups, and I think both teams score 170.

Watched this game after I noticed the Lakers were playing like a D-League team. Nobody else tuned in? Ellis took over, and the Kings just couldn't run a play to save their lives. That overtime was just ugly.

Yeah, I remember when he outplayed LeBron James, also. Craziest thing I've ever seen. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200704180CLE.html

I will never, ever understand Phil Jackson's rotations...but I've learned not to question them, so it's whatever.

As stated many times before, the +/- statistic takes into account all players on the court with said player. Worst statistic out there. Best players on each team, according to the +/- statistic... Atlanta - Bibby (Johnson second worst) Boston - Garnett (Rondo, Allen bottom four) Charlotte - Wallace (S-Jax worst) Chicago - Rose (Asik third best, over Boozer) Cleveland - Varejao (Mo, Hickson bottom three) Dallas - Dirk Denver - Nene (Afflalo bottom two) Detroit - Stuckey (Prince, Rip bottom four) Golden State - Curry (Monta 4th, Lee 5th) Houston - Scola (Martin, Hill bottom four) Indiana - Dunleavy (McRoberts and Hansbrough over Granger, Collison last) LA Clippers - Aminu (Smith over Griffin, Gordon 7th) LA Lakers - Gasol (Kobe last) Memphis - nobody, because the site forgot they had a team Miami - Bosh (LeBron 4th, Wade 7th) Milwaukee - Dooling Minnesota - Tolliver (Beasley 5th, Darko second to last) New Jersey - Lopez New Orleans - CP3 (Jason "Boss" Smith 3rd) New York - Fields (Amare 6th, Felton last) Oklahoma City - Sefolosha (yes, over Westbrook and Durant) Orlando - Carter (Bass 2nd, Howard 3rd, Nelson bottom three) Philly - Holiday (Iggy 5th, Brand 7th) Phoenix - Nash (J-Rich last) Portland - Aldridge (Matthews and Batum bottom two) Sacramento - Head (Evans 5th, Landry and Cousins last) San Antonio - Ginobili (Parker 4th, Duncan 5th, Jefferson 6th) Toronto - Johnson (DeRozan bottom four, Bargnani last, Kleiza 2nd) Utah - Miles (Deron 3rd, Kirilenko 6th, Jefferson last) Washington - Booker (Wall worst) Worst thing I've ever seen.