Real Deal

Everyone else thinks it's a foul, also. I don't cloud my vision based on who I like and don't like. I call fouls on my own team when they happen. That was a foul on Wade, or else that shot was going in. Lucky for the Heat that Deron wasn't in there. They wouldn't have had a chance to even win it in that OT.

LOL, that was a foul. Jazz = awesome.

You're so smart!

Did you not read the line before that sentence? Weird, dude...lol.

Doing it all without Deron. Beautiful.

I never said Wilt was the best. I stated in this topic TWO TIMES (because you don't pay attention, which is why most want you gone from here) that Jordan was the GOAT, and that Kobe was the most skilled player. I said that, using your logic, or just simply using stats, Wilt trumps Jordan and everyone else. Read, or just don't bother replying, dude.

What I said had nothing to do with Kobe. I was wondering if you'd actually say something remotely negative about Jordan not shooting 50% or better in a post-season after 1991, but instead, you compare it to Kobe once again. I'm not surprised. Jordan is so perfect, lol. "Jordan didn't do THAT well in the last two or three Finals he played in..." "Yeah, but Kobe this, Kobe that..." Have you ever said anything bad about Jordan? Serious question.

They are taking Paul Millsap for granted.

MILLSAP!

And Jordan played in an era where about 35 other two-guards shot 50% or better from the floor in a season, so his efficiency was overrated back then. We can play that same game over and over again.

If I included Kobe's earlier seasons, he did it in over half of his playoff runs...correcting what you said earlier, when you said Bryant didn't. It's obvious who's making the comparisons. Is this to make Jordan look even better than he really was? LeBron's 35/9/7 on 51% FG is just as good as any of Jordan's playoff runs that went over one series, but I doubt anyone even cares to talk about that, especially since Jordan stopped shooting 50% or better in a post-season after 1991 (which, if this were Bryant, would definitely be something to note because efficiency means everything). Hey, we know, Jordan is the GOAT. He's the GOAT of all who could be considered the GOAT. He's a basketball god. I'm not sure what you're wanting to hear that you have yet to hear for years.

WHAT AN IDIOT.

I've never seen anything like that in my life.

LOL, I was correcting what you said. I don't need another dose of Jordan statistics. As I stated earlier, I don't hand out Wilt numbers. Shaq caught the ball in the post, worked out of it and passed to open players, and that's why he was one of the best passing centers in the game. Gasol does the same. It's the post triangle, five able-bodied passers with spacing at 12-15 feet for that very reason. Chicago ran the reverse triangle. Bryant only had two tries (12 games total, actually) to do what Jordan did. If I didn't like MJ so much, I would hate his guts for the way people throw his numbers around as if he was perfect, yet ignore a lot of his second three-peat, where his shooting hit the low 40s and he wasn't racking up the numbers he was in the late 80s in any major statistical category, despite winning three more rings and two more season MVPs. You expect Kobe Bryant to accomplish what Jordan did, and do it in just 12 games. That's the only comparison you have between the two when it comes to their roles and their direction on a team, and even then, Phil Jackson was forcing Bryant to give the ball up to Odom and Kwame down low (which failed miserably, and Kobe showed his displeasure over this many times, including Game 7 against the Suns in 2006). Even in the second dynasty, Jordan never had sole responsibility of facilitating the triangle offense like Bryant does, and unfortunately, facilitating in the triangle doesn't translate into assists when you're running the ball through the post and not looking for your own 50% of the time. As always, I'm done talking about Mike. There never seems to be a reason to talk about him if it doesn't involve Kobe anyway.

Might be a little inactive here and there...time to design that new skin and put out these banners.

Bryant did it 3 of 5 times with Shaq since 1999-2000, and 4 of 5 times post-Shaq. He's done that 7 of his last 10 post-seasons, dating back to that first championship season...

I'm not even sure why you stated I believe Kobe is the greatest. You even quoted my post where I said Jordan was before you stated that. Greatness includes accomplishments, on a team and individual level. The abilities of a player (skill level, overall play) doesn't take into factor how many NBA championships that player has, or how many MVP awards the media gave him. Those are two different things. Kobe is the most skilled, Jordan is the greatest. Throwing Bryant under the bus for not averaging 40 PPG in a playoff series is unfair due to having far less of an opportunity to score those baskets to begin with. Jordan's shot attempts tell the story. If Kobe was averaging 30+ FGA a series even once, let alone multiple times, you'd have reason to brag about Jordan's 40s when comparing the two players...but he never did that. It all goes back to the two different months that Kobe averaged 40+ PPG, something Jordan never did in his entire career. If Bryant could average that in a month's worth of shooting 30+ shots a game (and probably less, won't bother checking), I don't see how you can say he wouldn't have done that if given the green light to obliterate teams back in the first dynasty. Even against Phoenix in 2006 or 2007, who you consider a terrible defensive team (despite who they were sticking on Bryant)...had he decided he was going to average 40 against them, please...he could've. When he decided he wanted to outscore Dallas, he did...when he wanted to cremate the Raptors and come back down 20+ in that game, he did by dropping 81. There's nothing anyone can say that would make me believe Bryant couldn't have dropped a 40-point average against multiple teams in the playoffs. Jordan got to the line, but so did Bryant, and the one thing Kobe had that Jordan didn't for most of those series? Threes. Stick Shaq in there with Jordan...maybe Jordan doesn't retire, and he wins eight rings...cool. But, you don't see Jordan rolling out 40-point averages, either...not with a prime Shaq in the post, and not with Phil instructing Jordan to play through him.

At the end of the day, it's not fair to say, "Jordan averaged 40 PPG in a playoff series, Kobe never did" (and that wasn't you from the start, but that's what it became). It's like noting how Wilt averaged 50 in a season, and Jordan never touched it, how Oscar averaged a triple-double, how Kobe put up 81 in a game, even how Barkley doesn't have the amount of rings Gasol has. People argue that Magic is the greatest of all-time. I could show you guys how many bigger assists averages Magic has in all of his playoff series' also, and compare them to Jordan, but it wouldn't make much sense given the roles they had. Phil gives Kobe 30+ shots a night, every night, in the playoffs...and he eats it alive. If he can average 33-35 PPG on 23-25 shots, he can get 40, especially with O'Neal out of the paint and Kobe getting a few more opportunities to attack the rim. Has Jordan ever taken 40+ shots in a playoff game? He sure has. I know for a fact he did it against the Suns. It makes zero sense to throw statements out there that relate the two in that manner. Not much more to say, really. Unfortunately, I didn't bring Kobe into the debate, and I was hoping nobody else would...which is why I decided to stay out of the topic to see where it would go. My opinion, as always: Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game, Jordan is the greatest ever.

Kobe wasn't going to average 11 APG in a series, dude. What was he going to do, throw oops to O'Neal all game for an entire series? Again, the triangle ran by Phil was completely different for Kobe and the Lakers. I would hope Jordan could average big assists with who he had around him. LeBron averaged tons of assists with his shooters in Cleveland. Drive and kick. I saw Jordan do it as much as James did...and it was critical in him winning that championship against the Suns (ask Paxson, who is a shooter). Shaq's buckets were not assisted on very many times. It was because the post entry pass allowed the double, and Bryant's ability to draw doubles made that duo one of the greatest of all-time. It would've been remarkable if Bryant averaged anything near 10 assists per game in any month, any playoff series, or any season with Shaq. You watched Michael. You know that is all true. You also know Kobe Bryant wasn't going to drive into the lane with Shaq sleeping in the paint and demanding the ball, just to kick it out to Devean George and Derek Fisher. By the way, in that series against Boston, he averaged nearly 32 FGA per game...just another series he shot over 30 FGA per game in to get that 40+ average. Jordan was allowed to score as much as possible. He was never, ever asked to defer. Those 40's could've been accomplished by Bryant, no doubt about it, had Kobe even decided to attempt 30 shots in a series, let alone 32 and 33. I would love to see Jordan's shot attempts in those other series you posted.

The point was, you're still comparing the two despite both being in entirely different scenarios at different ages (+3 years on Bryant as well, due to the number of games he played). I just find it very, very hard to believe a prime Kobe wouldn't have dropped a 40+ PPG average on ANY team in the playoffs had he not played alongside Shaq, and that's all that this is about. If he could average 40 in a month TWICE in his career (maybe three times, don't remember), he could average 40 in a playoff series in his prime. Just because he didn't do it against the Suns in just two opportunities (a team that stuck both Raja and Marion on him as much as they possibly could) doesn't mean he couldn't do it without Shaq. Shot attempts? Jordan vs. Miami, 1992: 29.0 FGA per game Jordan vs. Phoenix, 1993: 33.2 FGA per game The stuff with LeBron and Wade, haha, you're doing it with them as well. Did Jordan average 40 PPG against any team in any series during the second dynasty? He didn't. Kobe has shot 50% or better in a series more than just once or twice. 35 PPG against the Kings in 2001, on just 23 FGA per game. He ran off 34 PPG on under 22 FGA against Denver in 2009, and over 34 PPG on 27 shots against the Magic in the Finals. The 33 PPG was on 26 FGA per game, against the Spurs, 2001. He averaged 32 PPG on 26 FGA per game against the Spurs in 2003, and 32 PPG against the Wolves (26 FGA) in 2003. Averaged 33 PPG on 26 FGA against the Suns in 2007, 34 PPG on 23 FGA last season's series. 32 PPG on 22 FGA against the Jazz last season, also. Kobe did not shoot over 27 shots in a single playoff game in 2004. Since getting Gasol, Kobe has shot 30+ FGA just five total games in the playoffs. In his first three championship playoff years, Bryant shot 30+ FGA in just four games total, and through his entire career with Shaq, just seven playoff games (1999-2004). Once in the 2006 Playoffs, twice in the 2007 Playoffs (12 total games). He shot over 24 shots just once against Phoenix in 2006, and over 26 FGA just twice against them in 2007. Unlike Jordan, Kobe has never, ever attempted 30 FGA per game in a series. Kobe didn't put up a 40 PPG playoff series average? Cool...it's no wonder why. He wasn't a ballhog.

Ah, yeah, I think I heard something about that error, actually. Some pictures won't load for other sites, banner wouldn't load on OTR once, etc...I've had it before. Firefox had it once a LONG time ago, when it first released. Not surprised to hear Chrome has the same issue.

In other words, just two series without Gasol. Boston and Detroit's defense (which would be two of the best among those in NBA history) doesn't excuse the poor shooting? So, Kobe just shoots poorly to begin with? Was it the pressure? I've watched enough Jordan to know that no team he EVER played defended him the way Detroit and Boston defended Bryant. None. For one, there was illegal defense in the league at that time, they just didn't call it when teams committed to doubles, and no Youtube video will prove otherwise. I can show anyone a Youtube video of Smush Parker dunking and scoring the ball at will, but it doesn't mean he was amazing for us. What you expect of Bryant is to get to the rim like Jordan did (and, ironically, you put up the numbers Jordan was producing before he turned 30). Bryant already logged almost three full seasons more games at age 30, and he was not driving to the rim in 2007-08. Yeah, he wasn't "shooting" a high FG% because he was shooting, and he was pulling up for jumpers with two guys in his face, taking the most difficult shots in the history of the game. Kobe, with Gasol, at 30 years or older (with 1,000+ games under his belt), is not going to drop 40+ PPG on 50% FG against teams like the Celtics or Magic in the NBA Finals. Jordan wouldn't have, either, especially when he reached that 1,000+ game mark in the 1997 NBA Playoffs, shooting under 43% in nine of his 19 playoff games that season. Dynasty Kobe, and a little beyond the dynasty...you give him Pippen and Grant, all of the shooters...you don't think Kobe has 4-7 game performances of 40+ PPG in the playoffs? Bryant averaged 40+ PPG in a month two or three times in his career (Jordan never did that, only Wilt and Baylor, and only Wilt and Kobe did it more than once). You really don't think Kobe could've done that in a playoff series, or more than one? The comparison isn't fair, at all.

Go to Chrome's wrench, then Options. Go to the Under the Hood tab, then hit the Content Settings button. Javascript has to be turned on, and check your exceptions to make sure OTR isn't listed.

Whether the players fit his style or not, they should listen. I don't recall any of them having the success Saunders has had (as a coach, of course).