Real Deal

Deja vu, every time...can't talk about Kobe without noting how inefficient he is. He averaged 35, BUT he didn't shoot 50% like Sherman Douglas or Mark Price did when they averaged 19-20 PPG, or the other 35-40 guards that did it in the 80's and 90's. Kobe put up 27 40+ point games in 2005-06, BUT that was in the regular season. Nash was much more efficient, and he is an excellent passer, so might as well consider Nash a top 20 player in NBA history. Efficiency is through the roof with Steve...six consecutive seasons of 50% shooting or better, 13 of his 14 seasons shooting over 40% from three, six of his last eight seasons shooting 90% or better from the free throw line. Not even God (Jordan) accomplished that. I'm already done talking about Kobe in the topic created just for him. Go figure.

The debate is the all-time rankings, because it includes personal and team accomplishments. Magic has the MVP's and was a superstar for all five of his rings (Kobe for four of his...can't consider Kobe a superstar in 2000, just an amazing all-star). But overall game? I don't think it's close. I don't see anyone touching Kobe or Jordan. People are going to be forced to add Steve Nash to discussions as far as greatest PG's of all-time go, as in top 6-7, because he has two MVP awards and is one of the best passers in the history of the game, not to mention probably in the top three best shooters of all-time at the point. But overall? He's a horrible defender. Will people remember that? Probably not. I still don't get the comparisons to slashing superstar guards and forwards, especially when they are in their 20's. At 22 or 23 years old, Bryant would've eaten those teams alive by slashing to the rim...but he wasn't given that opportunity to go into isolation every play, not in the triangle while Shaq is sitting down low. Bryant's "lack of efficiency" has been made up by his ability to draw doubles and triples more than anyone not named Shaq in the last 20-30 years (won't dip into Wilt or Kareem's era because I really have no idea). When he was without O'Neal, he didn't have much to work with...at all. You gave us that argument for McGrady, so you should accept it for Bryant. Kareem was far, far less efficient than Shaq...but I don't hear anyone talking about that. Shaq's lowest FG% in any season is 55.7%. Guess how many times Kareem shot lower than that? Eight times, and six of those eight were in the first nine years of his career, when he was putting up his best numbers.

Fesenko??? Oh no...bad idea.

Last season, Durant racked up 30 PPG and led the Thunder to 50 wins. How many other players have done that in the last 40 years (since 1970)? 30+ PPG, 50+ wins... Michael Jordan Kobe Bryant Kareem Abdul-Jabbar LeBron James Allen Iverson Dominique Wilkins Karl Malone Kevin Durant That's it. Pretty good company.

I agree. A ton of football fans I know say the same exact thing. The older fans (like my girlfriend's dad) says it's either Rice or Walter Payton.

The fifth ring capped it off. Magic won five, and most LA fans were waiting for Bryant's. Overall player, Bryant topples Magic. I don't see how that's even up for debate. Add the rings? It's even, and it's not like Magic wasn't playing with a Shaq of his own, plus an all-star or two, arguably had more help than Kobe ever did (Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, Green). I've had plenty of Lakers fans tell me that Magic is better than MJ, that he played "stellar defense" and could score 50 whenever he wanted, but he just wanted to be less selfish. Please. I love Magic, but none of that is true.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I didn't think he'd be at full health this season.

Whoa, Irvin over Moss? -_- Is that because of the rings? Otherwise, I don't see how...

Haha, I agree, I wasn't saying Kareem was more consistent. It's just that Kareem was still effective in his 20th season of playing, which is impressive. When Jordan headed to Washington, he scored 50 as a 40-year old player...but it was evident he wasn't the same, and was pretty inconsistent even netting 20-25 points per. In his 15th season, Malone was still putting up 26 PPG, with 10 boards and 4 assists, 51% FG...and that's pretty impressive as well, especially considering the fact he missed just six total games heading into that season, and never missed the playoffs (158 playoff games when his 15th season ended). Bryant already has more playoff games under his belt. Malone started declining (showing it through his stats) after playing 1,192 regular season games, 158 playoff games. Bryant is still going strong at 1,021 regular season games, 198 playoff games. Pretty close.

Where do you rank him at? I've read that many think he has pulled ahead of Jerry. What do you guys think?

Well, I would consider Kareem another, the way he was still balling after 20 years. He wasn't putting up the big 30/17 he was adding when he was young, but that was also when there were few legit seven-footers defending him.

I disagree...don't think the majority will ever put him over Jordan. He wins eight rings? Three were with Shaq, and that's someone Jordan never had (because, of course, Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman -- two greatest defenders of all-time -- are completely irrelevant).

He didn't average more assists the second season...he averaged less. And he took less shots because of Zach Randolph, and one less shot isn't significant enough to say, "Oh, wow, he's definitely less selfish this season." He wasn't selfish his rookie season. He produced nearly the same amount of numbers his sophomore year. What happened his rookie season? He was second in FGA, with 15.6. Gay took 16.0 FGA. Sophomore? Two guys (Gay and Randolph) took 16 FGA per game, which would logically drop Mayo's. If he shot 11 times a game and racked up six or seven assists, THEN you could make that argument, because that decline in his numbers is too dramatic to ignore.

Idea comes from Nitro's post about the Nets losing to the Spurs in the Finals. Post yours. Mine would have to be the 2008 Finals against Boston. Nothing hurt more than losing to the green, and getting absolutely obliterated by 39 in that Game 6. I considered the 2004 Finals loss to Detroit, and the 2006 loss to the Suns (we were up 3-1 that series and lost Game 6 because Odom couldn't grab a [expletive] rebound), but we had our hearts ripped from our chests in 2008.

From Imadul at TLN... http://thelakersnation.com/forums/index.php?/topic/43947-kobe-in-the-all-time-lakers-record-books/ Incredible.

So Iverson was selfish because of his shot attempts? OJ Mayo took 15.6 FGA per game his rookie season, and 14.4 his sophomore year. Just one attempt less. Assists? He threw more, just barely, his rookie year. He attempted almost the same exact amount of threes per game. How did he go from "ballhog" to "unselfish" by doing that?

Ron Harper was a better player than both Horry and Prince.

Kobe must be the greatest role player, or even the greatest Robin, I've ever seen in my entire 27 years of life, to average nearly 30 a night and running the offense. Who was the "Robin" or role player during the 2008 Boston run? Who was Batman? There is such thing as having two Batmans... Just annoys the [expletive] out of me, that's all. Best defender, nearly 30 a night, facilitating the offense...and he's put in the same category as Tony Parker and Pau Gasol? Anyway...when you think of a role player, you don't think of an all-star, or even a star player. Andre Iguodala is a star...borderline all-star. Technically, today, he's still Philly's franchise player. Toni Kukoc was a role player. Ron Harper, later in his career. Robert Horry. Derek Fisher. Jason Terry. Basically all sixth men candidates, most fourth or fifth starters on a team (depends on the team, of course), guys that have a defined role in the offense/defense, but not expected to exceed their roles and carry the team on their backs.

I could RUIN YOU if I went and changed the topic title to "The Perfect NBA Role Player." Muahahahahahaaaaa!

Weird... http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/LeBron-James-popularity-plunges-but-Kobe-Bryant-still-more-disliked-athlete-091410

Dude, I keep forgetting you're a Nets fan. Add it to your team rep! And, this gave you a worse feeling than the Lakers sweeping the Nets? I think I'd be happier just knowing I had a chance against either of them, than witnessing a sweep. I was absolutely relieved that the Lakers won a single game against the Pistons in 2004. Had they not, it would've sucked even worse.

Of course, the Lions are last...a 30-team gap between the two.

No thoughts, except that the Trench Counter formula is ignorant. For one, had the Patriots played the Bills and completely obliterated them in the air and on the field, held them to hardly any yards and made them look like a college team out there, they would be ranked #1 on the list...for demolishing one of the worst teams in football. Instead, the Pats are penalized because they let their foot off the gas after dropkicking the Bengals in the first half, 31-3, showing they are one of the elite teams in the league (as much as I hate them). Makes no sense to use the Trench Counter formulas in rankings, ever...especially after the first game of the season.

If he wasn't so inconsistent, Lamar Odom...but I don't know if I can really say that, because if he weren't inconsistent, he'd probably be an all-star. I'm going to say Grant Hill.

Gordon is an excellent defender, better than Mayo...but he doesn't have the skillset OJ does on the offensive end of the court. When Mayo lights that match, he's pretty dangerous. In Gordon's biggest scoring game (against OKC, which is one that I watched), he got to the line many, many times. Did a lot of attacking. Mayo's biggest scoring output was 40 (similar to Eric's 41), but he put in just 2-2 from the line, shot lights out that night, 68% with 17 FGs. In fact, in every 30+ point game of his career, Mayo has shot seven or less free throws. In all of Gordon's 30+ point games? He's never shot less than seven, and 12+ free throws in three of them. Hell, Mayo has shot 10 free throws in three games...in his entire two-year career. Never shot more than 10. Why is that significant? Mayo shoots around the same percentage in a two-year career. Once it's instilled in him that he needs to be THE franchise player, THE attacker and THE 20+ PPG scorer he should be, he'll rack up more free throw attempts and light up opponents from anywhere on the court, and when that happens, he'll surely surpass Gordon.