Real Deal

It can work against Gasol as well. The more players you have crashing the glass and grabbing boards, the less boards you'll pull. That's why Odom doesn't average double-digit boards. Put Gasol and Bosh under the rim together, with similar teammates, and I'm going to say that Gasol out-rebounds him. He boxes out better and has more length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAeEnhqS1rk

Oh my GOD...did anyone see that three from Teodosic that took out Spain? He shot it from Antarctica. :o Spain and Greece are both done. Crazy.

No point in me talking about it anymore, to be honest. Either way, best overall players in their primes (among current) would be Bryant, followed by Duncan, then Garnett and Kidd in the mix. Build around? Probably the bigs first (Shaq and Duncan), but it depends on the teammates. Give Kobe a defensive big (like Rodman), a Pippen, and a ton of shooters? I'm probably taking Bryant because, when it's all said and done, Bryant will be doing more for longer, and giving it his all for a full season and playoffs.

I do find it quite funny that you mention how bad the Suns were, defensively, yet they had Raja Bell and Shawn Marion defending Bryant. Phoenix was an average defensive team because of Nash and the frontcourt's lack of defense. Those Suns teams were ranked 16th and 13th on defense those two seasons, by the way...so I'm guessing the bottom 20 teams are terrible, defensively? No average? Bryant hasn't had to defend anyone on the biggest stage? I'm pretty sure he had to defend Iverson after Fisher was lit up for 48 in Game 1. Bryant held AI to 40% or less from the floor for the next two games, defended him half of the time in the fourth game, and Jackson left it up to Lue and Fisher in Game 5. It was Bryant that had to defend Miller most of the time in 2000, and he came out of the gates and held Reggie to 1-16 from the floor in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. When Bryant was assigned Rose for Game 2, he only played nine minutes...and Rose ended up dropping 30 on LA. He had Kittles, for the most part, against the Nets. Not a big deal. That's just the Finals. Offensively, he has done MUCH more than just the 50 he dropped on Phoenix. Remember his 48 points and 16 rebounds against the Kings to sweep the series in 2001, then the following game, Bryant dropped 45 points and 10 rebounds against the Spurs? He added 36 points, 9 rebounds and 8 assists two games later. He stacked 48 or 49 on Denver recently, had a monster fourth. Jordan came into the league, and to the Bulls, as the primary scoring option. Never, ever had a second option that ran up 22+ a game. Same with Tim Duncan, with the exception of 2009 and Parker (22 PPG) and his rookie season. If Bryant had a Dwight Howard, instead of a Shaq, you really think he wouldn't go on "crazy scoring outbursts" in the playoffs? The 2000-2007 Bryant would have more 50s, easily. Why would you bring that into the debate when you know Bryant and Duncan (and Jordan) didn't start on the same path from the beginning? Since Shaq's departure, Kobe has averaged 30+ in three consecutive playoff seasons, nearly four (29.2 PPG this year), and that's in five seasons. With Shaq? Just one time, out of eight. I don't know why you're still trying to make Tim Duncan out to be as good as Bryant on the offensive end, and that it's taking you to discredit Bryant's post-season performances to get it done, ignoring the other 1,000+ games he's played. Both in their primes, Bryant is more likely to dominate a single defender, and by dominate, it means 50 points. Will he do it as efficiently as Duncan? No, because Duncan is a big...but there's one thing to say about Tim that none of his supporters like to hear: for a seven-footer who has had an excellent post game and was never declared soft, he sure doesn't shoot like a true big from the floor. Hell, even Barkley shot better. Charles Barkley - 54.1% career FG, seven seasons shooting 55% or better Kevin McHale - 55.4% career FG, six seasons shooting 55% or better Tim Duncan - 50.8% career FG, zero seasons shooting 55% or better (just zero?) Might as well continue to nit-pick at everything, but I'll bounce from the regular season to the playoffs and cover every game. 2005 Finals MVP? Shouldn't have gotten it after the Pistons held him to under 42% shooting in the series, forced 37% FG on him in a deciding Game 7 (since Bryant's Game 7 was so bad, and Jordan shot 26% in Game 6 vs. Seattle). Throwing a bunch of stats together will make the members go, "Wow...that's crazy! Jordan shot 26% in the final game against Seattle? Whoa... he was held to under 42% FG in that entire series? He was held to under 43% in the 1998 Finals?" It's not hard to make a player look bad.

I never said anything about the Lakers/Suns series. I was using Bryant's regular season numbers, against 29 other teams, 82 games a year. Even without the averages, Kobe's massive numbers in games (81, 62 in three, four-consecutive 50's, nine consecutive 40's, 13 consecutive 35's, 2-3 months of averages of 40 PPG, etc)...they topple everything Duncan has ever put up, and it's a rabbit in a turtle race. You pointing out who Bryant had to defend (and using that to downplay his defense) would be like me looking at who was defending Duncan (using that to downplay his offense). It's similar. I'm 100% sure Duncan has never been asked to drop buckets against guys like Prince, Battier, Bell, Bowen, Jackson, Hinrich, Kidd, Artest, Posey, Wade, Sefolosha, Afflalo, Christie, Roy, Kirilenko, Pippen or Jordan. And it all comes back to this... And it's me saying that Kobe is far superior on the offensive end of the court, more than Duncan's superiority over Kobe on the defensive end. Can't really say where else to go from there.

Drexler wasn't on the 1994 team that won the title, and in 1995 (when Drexler was dealt to Houston), he was not on the all-star team. Put up good numbers, nonetheless, but he was no Kobe. And, Cassell wasn't playing at the end of games during that first championship season. Not as a rookie. All of that is beside the point, anyway, just one sentence of my post. In other words, he was the better shooter...lol. You can't tell me Kidd isn't on Nash's level as a passer. And, unfortunately for Nash, Jason Kidd is one of the best defensive players in the last 10-15 years, while Nash is one of the worst defensive players starting at the point in that time span. Kidd is the complete player. Nash is the shooter. It's a no-brainer, for me.

You can't give me Duncan's 27 PPG playoff run, the sample size he had against Predrag Drobnjak and Shaq. For one...Drobnjak? I could score 30 on him every game...but Shaq was so ignorant in that Spurs/Lakers series, he almost lost us leads I don't know how many times. He and Duncan played "good game, bad game" the entire series, while Bryant basically beat the Spurs by himself. Plus, despite what anyone claims, Shaq was a pathetic defensive player. Heard it enough from Phil Jackson, then had to watch it for years. Pick and roll, he was D-League bad, and his on-ball defense (especially against versatile centers) was ugly. Was the 24 PPG playoff run the year he dominated Dirk? If so, it was also the year Kevin Garnett locked him up, badly, after he kept helping off Duncan that first game of the series, and Robinson had to win it for San An. I'm not going to dive into a 4-12 game playoff run, though. I'm sure he averaged in the 20's when he won his titles, but when you tell me that Kobe has rarely had the most difficult swingman assignment, I can't help but say that Duncan didn't exactly play against any good defenders in the playoffs. Amare, Dirk, Shaq, Drobnjak, four that just come to mind. When he did, against Garnett, he didn't show me anything to drop my jaw about. If this is all about the big man and how you'd build around one over any guard, then I don't see the point of going any further with this. In other words, you would take Shaq over Jordan? Both Duncan and Shaq had a lot of help winning their rings. It's not just about being a seven-footer. Tell me who we put around these guys first, and then I'll decide. Using that logic, you should want to take Hakeem over all of the bigs AND guards, because the truth is, Hakeem had the least amount of help winning his titles.

First shot was a 16-footer. Second shot was a 17-footer. Third was 18 feet from the rim. Fourth was 18-19 feet. Fifth shot was 16-17 feet. You didn't point out a single three in that video, didn't point out a single 20+ foot jumper. The three is 23'9" away from the rim, dude. Rose hits all of those said shots at a MUCH higher FG% than Wade does, much higher than Melo. I gave you the numbers. You gave me five shots that all didn't match your description. This has to suck.

He was 3-11 from three in that Heat-Mavs series, which is what I thought we were talking about? But I guess we're talking about free throws, since he made 75 of them that series. Takes a lot of driving in (what Rose does) to get those calls. Well...okay.

Hockey assists, what he led the team in, that stuff doesn't come into play if we're comparing Kobe and Duncan. That's comparing him and his teammates, when you wanted to throw out Kobe's assists and how he led his team. You make it sound like Duncan was close to a prime Shaq on the offensive end of the court. I never said the offense wasn't ran through him, but that doesn't mean he's on the level of Shaq or Kobe, either (or Jordan, or other amazing offensive players of the last 20 years). Agree to disagree, I guess. I don't know why I would even have to say anything when it comes to their offensive production. Kobe by a mile. Defensively? Bryant locks down whoever he wants and is a mess for opposing teams as a help defender. Duncan is in the same boat. His impact as a big? Okay, he takes Kobe in that regard, but so does Shaq and many other big men. Do you think Shaq was a better defender than Bryant? Not a chance, but his big body changed shots, even when he was late getting back to the rim. If you say it's unfair to look at Kobe's assists numbers, why are we looking at rebounds and blocks for Duncan? Your argument for Duncan's dominance on the defensive end was his size and how he changed the way teams attacked San Antonio. Say the same for Dwight Howard? Only problem is, Dwight's on-ball defense isn't even as good as Gortat's, and we've seen players give Duncan trouble, consistently, in the past...and one of them is Amare Stoudemire.

No, I've excluded layups and dunks from those percentages I gave you. Those were all jumpers, including outside shots. And the same was said about Dwyane Wade, in 2006, when he won an NBA championship and shot .171 from three. I've yet to hear you tell me why that happened.

I am fine debating who is a better defender, because Duncan is amazing in the post...but come on dude. No way, no how, no chance that Duncan is a better offensive threat than Kobe, or a better offensive player, overall. Kobe has had both an offense ran through him AND he ran an offense. He was a second option AND facilitator that averaged 25-30 PPG, and then a primary option AND facilitator that averaged 30-35 PPG. Led the team in assists in almost every single season since the dynasty (except in 2004, Payton, and 2006, 35.4 PPG). The difference between Kobe and Duncan's offensive games...it's greater than the gap between their defense.

I think Bryant is on the same level as Duncan, defensively...but back on offense, Duncan isn't even in his realm, and that's what separates them.

Dude, lol...I gave you numbers on both Wade's threes AND his mid-range game. Rose puts up better numbers, and Wade shot .170 or so from three when he won his title. Rose is a better shooter, statistically. But now you're trying to say, "Okay, just 20-footers!" Seriously? So, to score in the fourth quarter, late in the game, you have to take 20-footers? No 18-footers? LeBron never drove the lane and scored buckets to defeat the 2007 Pistons? They were a pretty good defensive team. When this all started, you were telling us that Rose wasn't a 25 PPG scorer, and that he can't finish with the likes of Melo and Wade. You stated that, if he could average 25, he would prove you wrong. NOW you've narrowed it down to shooting 20-footers, and you're showing us Youtube vids to prove that Wade shoots them better than Rose, even though we've proven that Rose is a better shooter? I can find Youtube vids that show how good of a player Smush Parker is, too. Must be why he's still in the NBA.

Gasol is more skilled, and has proven he's a better defender (even at PF), and I'll need to see Bosh defend at the four in the NBA, not during international play, before I determine how much he has grown defensively. Post play, Gasol obliterates Bosh. Plus, Pau is a much better passer.

The 2008 USA team would CRUSH this 2010 team, easily. There's not a single guy on this 2010 team that can stop Kobe, Wade OR LeBron, and it would be an absolute mess. If we're going to talk about how they look against the teams they are playing, Spain almost took out this 2010 team...and Spain has been without Gasol, and they also had two injured players. Spain, with a full roster (including Pau) was so dominant in 2008, but they still fell to the US. Anyway...good blowout against Angola. It's expected.

Do you mean a five? C - Shaquille O'Neal PF - Tim Duncan SF - LeBron James (going to assume he's there right now) SG - Kobe Bryant PG - Jason Kidd

Game is on ESPN2 also.

You start here... You realized that he actually does shoot well from mid-range, so you say... Then you change it up and say... So are you asking for threes, or twos? There are plenty of guys who finish games well without being able to shoot the three-ball. Jordan was one of them for a good chunk of his career. Dwyane Wade shot .171 from downtown in 2006, the same season he became a champion leading his team. I just want you to know that Derrick Rose shoots .467 on jumpers alone. Carmelo last season? He finished at .410. Compare that to Billups at .491 and Kobe at .462, and even Wade at .393, and it's really hard to say that Rose doesn't shoot the ball well.

DUDE...lol, I thought about how pissed you were going to be right when Bird's shot fell. They were down what...15 or 16? It was a nice rally.

So many travels, so many NBA Jam dunks, and so many defensive lapses by whoever is playing it.

Yeah, and Tony Parker took advantage of the pathetic backcourt defense against Cleveland, also...but we know who led the team all season long, all playoffs long, and who was the engine despite not winning Finals MVP.

No. He doesn't possess the skills Bryant does. Sitting here and saying he can re-define his skills and get much better...I can say the same damn thing for any player in the league. Smith is a decent player that is decent doing a lot of things on the court, but not great in any of them. He's not among the smartest players in the league. He's not among the best shooters. He's not among the best defenders. He's not among the best passers. He's not among the best ball-handlers. He's not among the fastest players. Sitting here saying it's all in his brain? I don't buy that. He doesn't do ANYTHING great. He never did. Two different situations. Smith has never been on a "bad team" like Finley and Kevin Martin. He has had the opportunity to shoot 13-14 FGA per game (Gasol's average). He has been given the opportunity to be clutch, to start, to defend, to run the team, to do all of it as a second scoring option...and he did not play like the All-Star you want us to believe he is. Phil wanted Kidd and Marion in 1999 because Kidd was putting up 17/7/11 and was becoming one of the best players in the NBA, including defensively, and Marion was already showing how incredible of a defender he was going to be, along with the impressive first-year numbers. Phil was under the impression that he was going to get two superstar players for the price of one, and that Kobe was not a triangle player. He was wrong, and it had nothing to do with coaching him. Bryant even told Phil he was un-coachable. Funny part was, Kobe had "maturity problems" up until 2004, yet he was putting up 30/7/6 on 45% FG and flashing three championship rings, two of which he was co-leader for, running the triangle offense himself AND averaging 25-30 a game. Immature players (LeBron comes to mind, and the young Kobe) still show superstardom. JR Smith hasn't. He won't. No need to keep thinking otherwise.

Well, the idea brewing in Rudy's brain was that he could gain leverage by saying he was willing to sit for two seasons, then go back to Spain and ditch the league. He was hoping that would change Portland's mind about keeping him on the roster. Problem is, now there are 29 other teams who seem to be turned off by that, and rightfully so.