Real Deal

LMAO

That's pretty much your argument, then...that they just aren't Iverson. That's been the case with all examples I give you. Certainly. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-46843712.html If you don't believe he said that, here's a more legit link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92537&page=1 I'll give you 10 more if you need them. How about right from the newspaper? http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=110&dat=20010911&id=kJUKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=50sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6492,1088265 Guess what? Jordan came back because he wanted to play, nothing more and nothing less, as I stated and you so swiftly dismissed.

Yeah, I've never had a real job, never lived on my own. You guys got me. I'm a poor SOB that still lives with his mother and father, never paid taxes in my life, never paid for anything because I've been using Medicaid, food stamps, welfare and social security my entire life. Same with my father, who obviously hasn't paid any sort of tax, ever, at 48 years old...since he supports the health care plan. Not sure how the [expletive] I've survived in this world to date. Pretty crazy.

Kobe ran the offense in a DYNASTY. So the younger Kobe was selfish enough to do that? Iverson is the only stat-stuffer in the league, then. Once again, good job singling him out and avoiding any given examples. Wow man, words cannot express how ridiculous your post are when they are taking pot-shots at Iverson. We've already had a member consider leaving because he thinks you're racist towards him, bashing AI because of the way he dresses and talks. I'm starting to wonder if he's right in thinking that. Get over it.

Haha, Duncan didn't have jack for teammates, just one of the greatest centers ever, then a top point guard, one of the best international players to play in the league, and one of the best defenders in the league during his career, along with the second best coach in the NBA over the last decade. Kobe was a big part of the dynasty, averaged 25.4 PPG through the three championships (28.5 PPG in the second one), with an average of 5.1 APG over the three, the high on the team each year. It's funny to me how people forget the impact he had, like all he did was throw the ball down low to Shaq. Not to mention he had defensive assignments of Iverson, Miller and Kidd in the Finals. And I would consider a combo of Parker and Ginobili more effective than Gasol and whoever else you want to stick in here (Odom, Fisher, Ariza, one of them). All the while, Bryant has set scoring records, three-point records, and if it wasn't for the weird-ass voting, he should have more than one MVP. It's probably a bit closer than what some will say, but it's still Kobe. Duncan is only close because he has one more MVP award, the same amount as Steve Nash.

Haha, no. You said that all champions need three or more stars. That's what I said you posted. Stop avoiding it. And I gave you duos that can. You're wrong again. Don't make up "non-assist passer" abilities. This is funny, too... Hahaha. Isn't that what all players do? So, in other words, Iverson gives up the ball if he knows it will result in a score? Well damn, sounds like he's not as selfish as you say, haha. Kobe dominates the ball as much as Iverson, and so does Wade and LeBron, so their PPG and APG must be inflated as well. Inflated by, uh...domination? Good call. I agree. Now if we can get Renaldo Balkman to dominate the ball more, we can see him averaging 30 PPG and seven assists.

Damn dude, I shouldn't have to sit there and re-define every post to you. You know exactly what I meant when I said that the Pistons shouldn't have trusted Stuckey. We've known him to be a legit two-guard since he was drafted, and people have compared him to Wade in that light. Believe what you want, though. It's your way of avoiding it, even if I had to elaborate...you're still avoiding it. And no, I can't compare ANYTHING to Iverson, because it hurts your argument. I can give you 40 players who went with non-contenders to end their careers, and you still do the same thing. You hate examples because you have nothing to say when you're proven wrong with them, other than you going, "Err, but they aren't Iverson." And what, you don't think Jordan wants to come back today? He stated in an interview not too long ago that it's just not the same, that he misses the game and can't stand being on the sidelines. In his HOF speech, he said there's always a chance he comes back, even at 50, and told everyone not to laugh. Joking or not, it's in his head. He wants it. Nothing to prove? Everyone has that desire to prove something, especially at an older age. If you truly don't think Jordan came back in 2001 because he had that desire to play basketball, you're dead wrong, and you should stop debating immediately. That's from 2001. He loves the game. He can't stop playing it. He's been in and out of Charlotte practices since landing a spot as an owner. You're wrong again.

Jordan would crush him, like he did in 2001, at age 37 or 38 (Russell was around 31), when Jordan dropped 44 on him. Few know Bryon Russell, so this is his way of gaining a bit of attention, thanks to MJ.

Dude, you aren't even making sense with anything you're saying now. Denver now has five stars on their roster (if you consider Odom a star) in Melo, Billups, Nene, Smith and Martin. How do you guys not win it all with five stars? I took down your declaration that teams needed three stars to win it all by providing you with teams that didn't need them...but you ran past it. You somehow twist the hell out of my post about Kobe being the "basic passer" and "ballhog" he is by saying that it's STILL different from Iverson, and you call Kobe a "more willing non-assist passer," which is a term never used in the history of the NBA, just to add a fourth dimension to the term "passing point guard" in hopes that it will support your wild theory on Iverson. You then say that you never said all offensive stats are misleading. How about letting me know which ones are? Because the ones I gave all have been used in my argument for Iverson, and none of those stats are misleading, at all. I'm not even trying anymore. This is the weirdest debate I've ever been in, because I get the feeling you know I'm right, but you hate it because you can't stand Iverson, mostly because of his partying and off-court attitude (which you already admitted to, so why are you debating on-court production with me?).

I made it very clear why. I said that Detroit shouldn't trust Stuckey at the point guard position. I don't know how else to put it. They shouldn't trust Stuckey running the point? They shouldn't trust him at the one? They shouldn't believe he can run the offense? How else does it need to be said? I'm pretty sure Jordan could've made more than the veteran's minimum he took in Washington for two years, also...and he actually wanted to come back to Chicago and play for them (but Krause screwed that up). Same with Mutombo, when he re-signed with Houston. Same with Hill, when he re-signed with the Suns. You get the picture. Some guys just want to play...amazing as that sounds. :o Iverson didn't choose Memphis over contenders. I'm pretty sure I already had to dig into that with you. Contenders had NO money left for him, and they also had no room on their rosters. And I'm glad Iverson isn't one of those guys, the ones that run to a contender to piggyback the superstars. What a chicken [expletive] way of winning a title, don't you think? Just do the work. If you aren't born to be a champion, don't rely on someone else to make you one. Kobe was blasted for "piggybacking" Shaq for three rings, even though he didn't. Do you really think Iverson wants to hear that BS from the media? You think he wants to be known for being a pansy, in full panic mode, running to a contender to get his ring before he's done? Please. In that Lakers/Nuggets game, the fourth quarter you're talking about is when Kobe took over and had his hand in every single basket scored but one (excluding free throws), and Iverson was getting doubled and passing the ball out. It was Iverson who had 49 points through three quarters and was the only reason Denver was within two after the third (amazing how nobody else did jack that game). It was Melo missing shots, finished 10-23 that game and going 4-9 in the fourth, getting swatted twice by Bynum and having Iverson assist on three of his four makes in the fourth. Iverson shot three times that quarter, and that's it...the one willing to pass out of doubles, while Melo was willing to drive the congested lane and get swatted. Just another example of you finding a reason to hate on him.

Who was the third star Denver had in 2008? Melo and Iverson were the only two 20+ PPG scorers. And Odom is a bench player. When did he become a star? My example was relating to the 2008 Nuggets, obviously. But, either way...every team needs three to get it done? Jordan and Pippen didn't need Rodman to win titles. They did it without him for three straight, 1991-93. Ever seen Shaq and Kobe play? Who was the third star from the Lakers' dynasty? Who was the third star when Hakeem and Drexler won their title? Who was the third star when Shaq and Wade won theirs in 2006? You're wrong again. Both are good scorers. They just don't do ANYTHING else on the court, at all. Nothing. But even then, I don't remember those two ever averaging 30 a game, either, like I noted. There's a big difference between a good scorer, and an excellent one. Moving on... Shaq stated that he made them when they counted, but that wasn't so true, and you know it. It also didn't help missing 10 free throws throughout the game, then making two in the fourth quarter, as if that's supposed to make up for it, after it was his teammates who had to do just that. He's still a bad free throw shooter, either way you twist it. Doesn't matter. Stop splitting hairs again. Right...so why doesn't Kobe average over six assists per game (which is his career high, by the way) if it's all about ball domination and having basic passing skills? Don't bother explaining that one. Bryant has the ball in his hands just as much as Iverson, if not more. Not necessarily, because 41% is still very high from beyond the arc. Plus, that's irrelevant to what I posted. There's nothing misleading about the stats. Both show you're an excellent shooter, yes? Great, great reply there. I'm now convinced.

I really can't think of another series more exciting than the Bulls and Celtics...and when I say that, I'm talking ever since I started watching basketball. The Suns and Lakers of 2006 was pretty crazy, though...lots of blood boiling, Game 4 game-winner, but this series was crazy. So many game-winners, overtimes, and unbelievable plays.

Yeah, but we went down that road before with the Sonics.

It's amazing what you can do for attention/money these days.

Shooters are pretty valuable, especially when they can give you 50 in a playoff game. If Boston wants to keep contending, they better bring him back.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs205.snc1/7222_136140971652_502396652_3028832_5200600_n.jpg http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs205.snc1/7222_136141736652_502396652_3028839_5886741_n.jpg http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs225.snc1/7222_136141751652_502396652_3028841_490374_n.jpg http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs205.snc1/7222_136142326652_502396652_3028844_5080127_n.jpg http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs205.snc1/7222_136140961652_502396652_3028830_8170034_n.jpg http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs205.snc1/7222_136140966652_502396652_3028831_5146916_n.jpg They aren't very, very large...but those are some of the better pictures from his career.

Dash Chosen One Sun Tzu Smitty The Next Knick Confidence Prodigy Fish7718 (maybe) Let's double the list. I'll put out an announcement all over the forums, so we can see how many really wanna do this.

Aaron brought up a great, great point about USPS. It's ran by the government, and look how many people us it. At the same time, UPS and FedEx are still available, despite USPS's existence.

Some probably think they'll be fine, like I do. If anything goes wrong, it'll be because of Randolph.

Probably saving the franchise just by this, if you want to know the truth. I truly think the Grizzlies are the first team to move if another one goes (counting the Nets already heading out)...maybe even with Iverson still there.

So you don't think Bryant could've racked up 60-win seasons with Kareem, Worthy, Coop, Scott and Green? No titles? I assume you now realize why I removed the MVP awards from the discussion, at least.

He stated that he didn't win anything without Pippen. Did you not hear it? You're the only one on this Earth that doesn't think Jordan is the best in the game. Bird, Magic, Barkley, Shaq, even Wilt has stated that Jordan is the greatest to touch a basketball. Coaches have stated it (from JVG all the way to Sloan and Daly). Everyone in attendance last night knew it. ESPN declares it without hesitation. MJ was simply making a joke as an excuse as to why he was averaging 37 PPG at one point. A good excuse, actually. It's amazing the length you'd go to bash Michael. His teammates, opposing coaches, his rivals, almost everyone I can think of that's somehow affiliated with the league...all of them would disagree with you when you say Jordan wasn't the greatest, and that he was overrated, especially when he was able to drop 40 points at 40 years old, in a newer era, and he's still taking guys out in practice back in Charlotte.

Right. Is this another instance where I have to basically give you a full lineup of 14 players, so you know I'm talking about a real NBA game? Here, I'll do that, since I have to walk you through it. Team 1: Allen Iverson, Dwight Howard, James Jones, Raja Bell, Chuck Hayes, Joey Dorsey, Fabricio Oberto, Shannon Brown, Michael Finley, Steve Novak, Beno Udrih, God Shammgod, Pavel Podkolzin, and Brian Scalabrine Team 2: Chauncey Billups, Dwight Howard, James Jones, Raja Bell, Chuck Hayes, Joey Dorsey, Fabricio Oberto, Shannon Brown, Michael Finley, Steve Novak, Beno Udrih, God Shammgod, Pavel Podkolzin, and Brian Scalabrine How are offensive stats misleading? If you score 30 PPG for your career, it means you're an excellent scorer, does it not? If you shoot 60% from the foul line, it means you suck at free throws. If you throw 12 assists per game, you must be an excellent passer and teammate. If someone hits 45% from three while taking at least 2-3 per game, that means they are a good three-point shooter. If a player turns the ball over an average of 5 times a game throughout a season, they may just be turnover prone? Jordan finished great, shot the ball great...and that's why he can put up 50% shooting. There are no stats for holding your man on the defensive end, other than their own stats...and that's not definitive, either, because it doesn't represent a player's man defense (as it accounts for team defense as well). But offensive stats are per player, and cannot be assumed they are anyone else's stats. When you score a bucket, it's your bucket. When you throw an assist, it's yours. However, when your man doesn't score, it may be because he just missed the shot, and you left him open...or it may have been your teammate defending him on a switch. If I need to go more in-depth with that explanation also, just let me know.

I shouldn't have to hold your hand and step you through every post. Looking in, benching Iverson and placing Stuckey in the starting five as a PG was stupid. At the same time, putting Hamilton on the bench for Stuckey was also dumb. If Brown was still coaching the team, Stuckey would be the sixth man. Detroit went 15-15 without Iverson in their starting five (removing the two wins they had with Billups). That's on pace to win 41 games, instead of 39. That's still pathetic for a team with all that talent. What's funny is that Iverson and Hamilton played in the starting five together just 24 games. That's it. Funny enough, for 13 of them, Stuckey was also in there, which was STUPID. For the other 11, McDyess wasn't. STUPID again. Not even once did the Pistons try a five of Iverson, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed and McDyess. That's why they lost 43 games. Yeah, Marbury did make $200 million...altogether. Do you think these guys are sticking it in the bank and not spending it? You say Iverson isn't that threat for a 40 anymore? He dropped 38 on Deron Williams just last December, with Detroit. He scored 25 or more 10 times. He scored 20 or more 20 times, shot 50% or better 14 times, threw seven or more assists 17 times. And all of this was in a limited offense that pulled him in and out of the game, with Hamilton, Prince, Sheed and Stuckey all wanting their shots as well. Do you need to be reminded that Iverson torched the Lakers for 51 in December 2007? Just over a year and a half ago? He had 25 games where he scored 30 or more that season. Memphis gave Iverson the one-year deal because there's a hefty free agent class coming up. Figured you forgot about that. What if Wade wants to team with Mayo? What if they can bring in Bosh? Giving Iverson the one-year deal allows them to have money for 2010, possibly working something out with Iverson (long-term) that won't cripple them, especially if they can entice him with a free agent all-star or superstar. How can you not see that? Why do you think teams were so afraid to offer Kidd a large contract? I don't know what Iverson you're watching, or why you think he has declined so quickly...but you're wrong.

So in the end, I think we agree for the most part...that Kobe is the better overall player (in regards to abilities, should I say?) and that Magic is the better leader. As for building a team around one or the other, that's probably for another topic. I would rather take the player that has proven to give me 30 points a night, exceptional defense...because the truth is, I just can't see Magic doing any more with a starting five including Odom, Kwame, Smush and Walton or Mihm.