Real Deal

I'm just using your logic, Matt. We struggled against Orlando, also, and we still beat them in the Finals, 4-1. I believe any knowledgeable NBA fan will tell you that the playoffs are different from the regular season. That's why you see the Suns, Mavs and Kings all struggling to get that ring. So you truly think the Bobcats can beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals, huh? Really?

So, correcting your assumption earlier, he did in fact co-exist with other talented players just two seasons ago. The West has terrible teams? More than the East, right?

So are you telling me a 50-win Nuggets team in 2008 (with Iverson leading the way in scoring and shooting 45-46% from the field) was a worse team than the 48-win Sixers from 2003?

Every time I turn around to watch the game, Ben has gotten drilled. What's that, five tonight?

So the ONLY thing anyone is basing this on is four wins and Billups' leadership on the floor? Nobody considers Iverson "making his teammates better" statistically, how he put up better numbers and shooting percentages, how he did better against the Lakers (when Billups choked), and how Iverson didn't need Nene or Birdman? Well, okay...pretty funny to me. I'll bump this in April. That's why the poll is public.

Please. After losing Brown, who coached Iverson better than anyone to date, the Sixers had four coaches in three seasons. But you are forgetting about 2005, when the Sixers won 43 games, which is better than the 41 they won this year, or the 40 they won the year before, all without Iverson (can't even get above .500). Philly has sucked since Iverson and Brown. There's no way around it. Funny enough, that team didn't need Iggy, Miller, Young, and Dalembert to get their 48 wins in 2003, just Van Horn and Snow.

Get 'em, Stern.

I'm taking the best available player here, Courtney Lee. He plays defense, which would be ideal for Charlotte, he's able to shoot the ball or slash to the rim, and he's a two-guard, someone to replace an aging Raja Bell (or have him contributing off the bench).

By four wins, with Nene and Andersen included into the lineup (missing most all of 2008). But most of the important players' stats were down with Billups in the lineup. Check the first post. If quarterbacks are supposed to make their teammates better...why did Billups make them worse?

Seeing that Madden 08 ruined my first Playstation (overheated with the game in it), I'm a BELIEVER. Good luck, Fitz.

If Kobe won three rings with Shaq as the leading scorer, I don't see how he couldn't have won those three, or more, with Kareem, who was putting up numbers in the Finals similar to Shaq (see the 1980 Finals). In fact, here...

Ah, so that's why the Sixers were a 41-win or less team since Iverson left. Thanks for that explanation. So if he was quarterbacking the team, explain why everyone was doing worse with him as QB.

So a team of Kareem, Kobe, Worthy, Cooper, Scott and Green wouldn't have won championships? Is that what you want to tell me? Just curious.

Iverson (DEN) in 2008: 26.4 PPG (45.8% FG), 7.1 APG, 2.0 SPG, 3.0 TO/G, 3.0 RPG Billups (DEN) in 2009: 17.9 PPG (42.0% FG), 6.4 APG, 1.2 SPG, 2.2 TO/G, 3.0 RPG Statistically, you are wrong. Iverson contributed more to Denver. He shot better, scored more, threw more assists (despite missing Nene), had more steals, just as many rebounds as a larger Billups. So here's what you're saying: Allen Iverson's leadership is worse than Billups' leadership. And that's what caused the four extra wins? I think it has more to do with adding Nene's 14.6/7.8 on 60% FG, and Chris Andersen's 2.5 blocks and six rebounds in just 21 minutes of play. I know you're wrong, because Billups didn't produce enough to help this team as much as you're advertising. In fact... Carmelo Anthony, 2008: 25.7 PPG, 49% FG, 7.4 RPG, 3.4 APG Carmelo Anthony, 2009: 22.8 PPG, 44% FG, 6.8 RPG, 3.4 APG Melo had a worse season with Billups. Kenyon Martin shot a better percentage from the field with Iverson (54% versus 49%). JR Smith shot a better percentage from the field with Iverson (46% to 45%). Linas Kleiza shot a better percentage from the field with Iverson (47% to 45%). Now are you ready to admit that Nene's offensive production, and Chris Andersen's defensive production, helped this team more than anything else? Or are you going to stay in denial because of your hate for Allen Iverson? Giving you more... Again, Denver didn't improve that much, defensively, and there are in fact stats that show it. Defensive rank 2008: 10th 2009: 8th Points allowed per 100 possessions 2008: 106.3 2009: 106.8 (really?) 3PT% allowed 2008: 36.3% 2009: 36.6% FG% allowed 2008: 45.7% 2009: 44.0% Now here's where the bigs factor in again... Rebounds allowed 2008: 3722 2009: 3382 Massive improvement in keeping teams off the glass. That has nothing to do with Billups and his Iverson-matching three boards a game, but the fact that you got Nene back, along with Chris Andersen. I'm not sure what else you want to discuss. It's all right there. Nene and Chris Andersen were the biggest difference-makers. But finally, ask yourself this question: if the Melo and Iverson-led Nuggets had Nene and Chris Andersen in 2008, would they have won four more games (54 wins), or possibly better? I'm leaning towards a big yes. Additionally, if the Nuggets had avoided the Lakers in the first round last season, would they have advanced to the second round, or even the WCF? Possibly so. It wasn't the Iverson/Billups trade that made the biggest difference. It was getting Nene back, the presence of Chris Andersen, and losing an overrated defensive player in Marcus Camby. That's all she wrote. Vote and post your reasoning supporting, or disputing, the above post.

He's asking irrelevant questions from another topic, that's all. He's not asking who was more important to their Denver Nuggets team, because that would be a stupid thing for him to do to argue against statistics that provide glaring results against him.

Getting riled up because you have no respect anymore. Which is cool. I'm just a brat that doesn't try hard playing the sport I love. Good call. I'm done with you.

How the hell do two guys fall for the pump fake so many times during a game? Terrible.

2005 team: Magic (at 20-something), Odom, Kwame, Walton, Smush Who's going to be the leading scorer for this team, and how many wins are they going to get? You build around the more complete player. Is Magic more complete than Kobe? Magic's weaknesses: defense, three-point shooting, turnovers (averaged nearly four every single season) Kobe's weaknesses: leadership (early in his career) Hmm...

Calling me a brat? Think before you speak, you idiot. I said I wasn't able to because I wasn't that great of a defender. Man, you sure have fallen out of place around here. It's quite sad.

Haha, okay, you win! This is exactly what I had to tell you during the 2008 Playoffs, and also during the 2009 WCF. Go you.

People hate Iverson, just as they do Kobe Bryant. I don't know what else you'd expect asking people those questions. Go ask them who's better out of Kobe and Hakeem, or Malone, or Jerry West, or Jordan, or Magic, or Bird, LeBron, Wade, and you'll see a lot of guys hating Kobe just for the sake of hating him. It's what you're doing with Iverson, and it's getting sickening.

My coach told me to play better defense all the time. That doesn't mean I did. Maybe Billups should've told Melo to play better offense in the last four games of the series, or someone should've told Billups that same thing. There are many veteran vocal leaders in the NBA. Billups is one of them. So is Derek Fisher. So is Antawn Jamison. Good for them.

Anyone actually see Magic perform in the post-season? Because people like bringing up Kobe's mistakes... Yeah, great players have made mistakes. Michael was dominated by the Orlando Magic in 1995, first getting ripped by Nick Anderson to lose a playoff game, then throwing a terrible pass to Scottie (that sailed out of bounds) to lose the deciding game of that series, what Phil calls Jordan's worst moment ever. But Mr. Perfect, Magic Johnson, who was throwing nearly 4+ turnovers almost every season he played...he would NEVER make a mistake like those two. Not Magic, who shot 31% in Game 2 versus the Bulls in the 1991 Finals, then shot 33% in the deciding Game 5, as Scottie Pippen lit him up for 32 points, 13 rebounds and seven assists on 46% from the field. Are we talking about the same Magic who shot 39% and threw just seven assists per game in the first-round loss against Houston in 1981? According to you, he was already the clear-cut leader. Where was he then? What about the Magic that averaged just 11.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, and 8.0 assists against the Pistons in the 1989 NBA FInals? Far from his typical, amazing playoff numbers the previous season against Detroit in the Finals (21/6/13). How would you grade Magic's shooting in the 1983 NBA Finals, when Cheeks and Erving were all over him, forcing him to shoot 40% from the floor with an average of six turnovers per game, in an ugly sweep? Let's not overrate what Magic has done. He's lucky to have the teammates he did for his entire career.

Done playing your little games. I don't know who else is in on it, but it's over for you.

Funny, but he didn't have to do that.