Poe

But Melo isn't going to the Nets. He doesn't want to. The Nuggets are trying to convince him to go to New Jersey because the Nets have better trading chips, but Melo insists on going directly to New York. Melo is leaving Billups to play with Amar'e and a much younger team with a brighter future, like I stated earlier.

PER has it's flaws since there are plenty of things players do on the basketball court that aren't given a statistic (like screens, floor spacing, correct positioning, basketball IQ, drawing doubles, shot difficulty, anything off the ball, etc), though putting players with similar minutes together, it usually has a fairly correct ordering. It's the best statistical measurement I know of to compare players directly with their all around games. I was showing a comparison that doesn't involve bias, which I hope you understood that I made that clear from the beginning. Glad you are rooting for a worse team. I should do the same and hope the Mavericks make it back... your point? That's much different. While you are meshing stars together without any real chemistry and collective gameplan, the Heat have their role players to do the little things and are in a defensively disciplined system. But again, that teamwork thing is the only hope you can hold onto as an opposing fan. Even though the trio all took paycuts to play with one another and are willing to make the sacrifices... well, I guess there's always a sudden injury that can hold things back, or maybe LeBron can't resist the temptation to dance despite Spo's pole up his [expletive] and causes chemistry to collapse, or maybe a crazy mob of Cavs fans kidnap LeBron.. you never know! All jokes aside, this is starting to pull away from this being strictly about Kobe and Shaq versus LeBron, Wade, and Bosh. This.. debate... is over.

Melo isn't staying in Denver and wants to go to New York, for reasons outside of basketball from what I've heard. The question isn't whether the Nets or the Nuggets are the better team, but it's between the Nets and the Knicks. But to get it out of the way, who's the better team, the Nets or the Nuggets? The Nuggets are obviously a better win now team coming off a better record, but since their core is surrounded by players that are heading past their prime, the Nets have a better looking future, and so do the Knicks. The Nuggets have an average age of about 28 years old, including a 33 year old Billups, a 32 year old Martin, a 30 year old Harrington, a 32 year old Andersen, and a 28 year old Nene. The Nets have an average age of 25, including Lopez, Williams, Outlaw, Farmar, and Morrow being under the age of 26. The average age on the Knicks is 24.6, with not a single player on the team being over the age of 27 other than Roger Mason. Carmelo Anthony is 26. The biggest question though is, who has the better future? The Nets or the Knicks? If Melo gets traded to the Nets (which DOES require his approval in order for it to go down), his best three players in his supporting cast are Brook Lopez, Troy Murphy, and Travis Outlaw, with Troy likely to not be in the team's future plans. On the Knicks, his best three players are Amar'e Stoudemire, Danilo Gallinari, and Raymond Felton (all of which would not be included in a deal for Melo if I'm correct). Both teams may have cap room with Murphy coming off the books for the Nets and Curry for the Knicks, so both will be in a roughly equal position to sign talent in the future. As far as talent already on the team goes, New York has a better core to surround Melo with a post presence, a shooter, and a facilitator, while the Nets have a post presence, but Murphy is not quite the quality of a shooter as Gallo, and the rest of the team is filled with athletes and not proven basketball players. And lastly, the coaching? Both D'Antoni and Johnson have had a winning past, yet neither have a ring. D'Antoni plays run n gun and Avery plays defense. Melo doesn't like to play defense according to Snake, so I think he's more inclined to want to win in an offensive system rather than be forced into a more disciplined system. Plus, going to the Knicks brings him directly to his desired destination, while going to the Nets he has a two year wait. I'd say in Melo's case, New York is the much more attractive option.

He's approving it to the Nets organization, not the Nuggets. The Nets don't want to give up Harris and Favors only for Melo to leave when his contract expires. They have to know for sure if Melo will sign that extension.

Did you read my post? The Heat trio hasn't been put into practice, and because the duo has doesn't make them automatically better. For reference, look at my hypothetical about the bouncing basketballs. Let's try it: Shaq - 30.7 Kobe - 28.0 Average PER - 15.0 (replacement player) vs McGrady - 30.3 Martin - 21.0 Brooks - 16.0 Didn't work, LA duo wins by about 7.4. I'm usually a part of the minority opinion, as you've seen in the death penalty thread, and the WTC Wade comment thread, and others. I just happen to be a Heat fan arguing for a Heat trio. Continue to disregard me for homerism like the rest if you want. That's his and your best hope against them. Hold onto it as tight as you want.

I'm done replying to you, but I'll say this much. I don't have a bias for anything based on my relationship with it or the person. I don't think that way and never have. I've defended LeBron against a towel boy back when he was still a Cavalier. And if you knew me, I didn't like LeBron at the time because of his immaturity (which I still think he's immature... well, you'd know that if you read my posts). Everyone in the thread was angry against LeBron for mistreating a towel boy, and I was the only one who defended him, and pointed out that LeBron didn't actually see the towel boy. I'll search for the thread and edit this post with the link if I can find it. I remember RD locked the topic and probably deleted it too. Edit: I can't find it anywhere. It's probably deleted. Oh well. But anyway, there are plenty of instances where I've defended players I hate, and opposed players I like... players on my favorite team. You may see me do it a few times this season. I look at things from a pure objective standpoint, not a biased manner. But of course, because the players I'm arguing for happen to be on my favorite team, my post is automatically disregarded for homerism. And of course, since you never read my posts, I'll correct the misinterpretations again. I fully admitted that what Wade said was wrong. However, I was arguing against it being wrong for Wade to say it. Big difference, but nobody got it, and most people were essentially agreeing with me in their arguments without realizing it. But that's the past.

Sorry, I wrote Erick Snow instead of Larry Hughes. My mistake. Still an amazing feat from LeBron. Only elite scorers such as Iverson and LeBron could have a system work with them being featured. In their primes, Iverson was elite. LeBron is a better player than AI, however. Put Kobe in the same situation and he probably would have been able to lead a defensive team deep into the playoffs in the right situation. That's because Kobe is elite as well. He probably would come close to the ring as well, if he doesn't run into a Duncan/Manu/Parker or a Kobe/Shaq. So it's because of the ring count that makes Shaq and Kobe better? That doesn't make much sense, since Kobe and Shaq actually got to play with each other, and then Kobe had another legitimate championship team years later. Wade only had a legitimate second option one time and won a ring with it, and LeBron's best second option was Mo Williams. Pair LeBron with Shaq and I'm sure they would have won a ton of rings as well. Pair LeBron with Kobe, same thing. Pair LeBron with Wade.... AND Bosh? I'll let that sink in... You're comparing something that's happened to something that is about to happen. Just because we've seen one doesn't make it automatically better. So, for example.... we take two basketballs and we are going to measure how high each of them bounce. We decided to drop one, and it bounces high, yet we don't bounce the other. Do we automatically assume that one is better because we've seen it but not the other? Or how about we take the time to measure the amount of air is in both balls, then make an educated guess? In the trio vs the duo's case, we've seen how one played out but not the other. For now, all we have for comparison is their production statistically. I've already proven just how much better the trio is to the duo. Until you have a valid argument against it, the trio easily wins.

You can say that about any poster that actually takes the time to support their argument if you wish, as much as I can call any one-sentence post a brainless remark that isn't worth acknowledging. Sorry if taking the time to actually create an argument and supporting it with facts and reason isn't supercool to you, but rather skimming through the other person's post and pinpointing a small part to mock. [expletive], that's a second sentence... better stop before this guy's head explodes from all the reading I'm making him do on a discussion board.

Maturity issues hurt his value league wide. Any real money spent on him would be considered a risk.

I'm not, but you'd already know that if you actually read my posts. But since all you read and write are one sentence responses... damn, I guess I should stop typing now. I've written too much for you.

I figured. The Heat already have Joel Anthony.

Terrific news. He's great at developing young players, and the Suns have plenty of them. I also like the way he's taken D'Antoni's offensive blueprint a step further by adding defensive discipline.

Bosh won't play center much, though it's possible that he'll be asked to do so to open more playing time for Udonis. We'll see who defends the centers when both are on the court. Bosh is taller, more athletic, and has a longer wingspan though UD weighs more. Again, we'll see. Edit: Come to think of it, perhaps we might see Bosh get some playing time at the 3 against bigger SFs like Marvin Williams. At some point during a game, we could see a line up like: Wade - Miller - Bosh - Haslem - Ilgauskas. Just throwing it out there as a possibility.

Why not? I really don't understand. LeBron is a two time MVP and Wade has a finals MVP. Both players have had seasons with 30+ PER, something that even Magic and Pippen have never done. Fine, I'll put it on your terms so you can understand. LeBron led a team of Erick Snow, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas into the NBA Finals, which got beat by a much superior team including Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili. Don't forget the kind of effort and outstanding performances it took for LeBron to get his team there, like scoring his team's final 25 points or so against the Pistons. He's also a part of a number of other accomplishments, like being one of 5 rookies or so to average 20 - 5 - 5. Other than leading a team into a championship, Wade led the Heat to the 5th seed in 08-09 where the second best scorer averaged 13 ppg... off the bench. He should have won MVP that year. Also IIRC, he's the only player 6'4'' or under to have over 100 blocks in a season. I'm sure there are plenty of other records Wade has set that I can't think of at the moment. It's funny how much you guys are attempting to underrate these players, and I'm astonished that I have to remind you how good they actually are. They are superstars, just like Kobe and Shaq. They are offensive nightmares where defensive gameplans are made to slow down these players, just like Kobe and Shaq. They are arguably the best to ever play their position, just like Kobe and Shaq. So really, comparing Wade and LeBron to Kobe and Shaq is roughly even. Perhaps the Lakers have an advantage since I do believe Kobe is the best to ever play. What you're forgetting is that you are giving one side Chris Bosh, who led a team including TJ Ford, Anthony Parker, Joey Graham, and Rasho Nesterovic to the third seed in 06-07. That changes the game, and gives the Heat duo a third legitimate star, which gives them a clear advantage. So again, it's not even close. But feel free to throw more attempts at an argument against it. Edit: Here, maybe this will put off the emotions and bias for the Lakers and against the Heat. Say I removed Kobe and replaced him with Wade. Wade/Shaq vs Kobe/LeBron/Bosh Not even close right? Or how about: Kobe/LeBron vs Shaq/Wade/Bosh ..or how about: Wade/LeBron vs Kobe/Shaq/Bosh I can keep going. The latter always wins.

The West is still better overall. The Kings and the Warriors would be guaranteed to make the playoffs if they were in the East, since the bottom seeded teams in that conference are likely to be the Bobcats, Knicks, Pacers, or perhaps the Nets. All of these teams have a good chance to be the 7th or 8th seed, but the Warriors and the Kings are better than all of them. But since they are in the West, it's still questionable since they would have to compete with the Lakers, Blazers, Mavericks, Spurs, Jazz, Thunder, Rockets, and even the Suns and the Nuggets... that's 9 teams that have a good chance at the playoffs, and that's not including the Kings and Warriors.

How?

I don't like this trade for Denver. It's never a good option to trade your best player, but since they have no other choice, I suppose they are going to have to go with it. Hopefully for them, Derrick Favors turns out to be the real deal. If this trade goes down, the Nuggets won't be a bad team, but I can't see them being a playoff team out West. I can see a starting line up of: Billups - Smith - Kirilenko - Harrington - Nene. Smith and Harrington would start because this team needs scorers. They are going to have to hope that Smith finally puts his head on straight this year. As for the Nets, this is a great deal. It gives them a proven franchise player to pair with Lopez. They may not have the pieces to make the playoffs yet (as far as I can tell), but it definitely gives them something to build on. Once they acquire a third star, they may become a real threat in the East.

Me neither. How do people vote 2 elite players over 2 elites AND a perennial all star is beyond me. It just shows how much people are in denial about this Heat team.

How good of a coach is Keith Smart? I don't know much about the guy. Is he good enough to potentially lead the Warriors to the playoffs, or is it best they look for a different coach?

There are some things I like and don't like about this. First off, players should be allowed to show emotion on the court. Someone please show me a reason why they can't. ...so that's something I don't agree with. What I do agree with though is that there shouldn't be a constant verbal and body language war between players and refs. This takes away from it being a game against two teams but almost like a side match between players and refs. Thing is, this doesn't only apply to players. Refs aren't perfect angels or robots, sometimes they react unjust towards players as well. These new tech rules gives refs the freedom to say what they want to players and the players can't do anything about it. What should be done is NOT to increase technical foul calls. There is a reason behind all these criticisms towards refs. Instead of fining people for stating their opinions against refs, how about the NBA actually improves their reffing. Either by adjusting rules to make reffing easier, or by incorporating technology to make reffing more efficient... whatever it takes to make reffing better. If the reffing was perfect, there would be nothing for players to complain about. So Stern, please stop trying to make yourself and your precious refs untouchable and actually listen to the criticism against them.

Who is to say how much credibility I have over anyone else on these forums? None of us are professional analysts, at least as far as I know. That's not what I was pointing at. Everyone is so focused on Kobe and Shaq's achievements that they forget that Wade and LeBron are at nearly the same level individually. Interior presence isn't restricted to a single position, you do know this, right? Blocks are the only measurement out there for interior defense that I know of, and the trio averages nearly the same as the duo. Damn, I wish I had that crystal ball of yours. It would be really helpful, as well as that credibility card.

How does Kobe and Shaq win in perimeter D when they have 1 great perimeter defender in Kobe, and the Heat have 2 in Wade and LeBron? And how does the Lakers win in the interior so badly when Kobe and Shaq's combined blocks per game are about 4.0, while the LeBron, Wade, and Bosh trio combine for about 3.8? I love how everyone is talking about Kobe and Shaq and saying what great players they are, then talking about LeBron and Wade as if they are just okay players. I'm going to repeat myself: Kobe is arguably the best SG to ever play, and Shaq is arguably the best C. ALSO, LeBron is arguably the best SF to ever play, and Wade is arguably the best combo guard... Again, WHAT'S YOUR POINT? Alright, obviously my Heat homer glasses are blinding me, so let's compare some non-biased PER statistics from their peak years: LeBron James: 31.7 Dwyane Wade: 30.4 Chris Bosh: 25.0 Versus Shaquille O'Neal: 30.6 Kobe Bryant: 28.0 Glen Rice: 19.7 Well, what do you know? I added in Glen Rice, and the Heat Trio STILL wins by 8.8. Put them head to head, you have to treat both sides the same. Put an average PER player against Shaq, then you have to put an average PER player against Bosh. Both players will destroy the opposition. Not to mention LeBron outmatches Rice by a large margin. Take away Rice, and it's even worse. You have both LeBron AND Bosh being guarded by average players, while Kobe is being guarded by Wade leaving Shaq as the only player guarded by an average opponent. Shaq would have to outwork his opponent by the production of both a superstar and a perennial all star in order for the duo to be EVEN. Again, it's not even close. You have three players that require double teams versus two. You're comparing two elite players with two elite players, which is roughly even and perhaps the Laker duo is better, but once you add one duo a perennial all star... I don't see the question.

No, I was being sarcastic. He said Shaq couldn't be guarded and Wade and LeBron could, even though they both average roughly the same points and even the same true shooting percentage. They both scored just as efficiently as the other (LeBron's TS% is 60.4, and Shaq in his prime was 60.1, though Wade is more significantly lower at 57.7). I don't think I've made a prediction yet, so you have nothing to quote. Find a quote where I said that LeBron is anywhere lower than the 2nd best player in the NBA. I said it when he was in a Cavs uniform and I still say it now. All I ever knocked against LeBron was his immaturity. He acts like a kid, and as much as I think his choice to leave Cleveland shouldn't be judged so harshly, I still think he's immature. Also, I haven't been on this site "for a few years". I've barely been here for over one and a half (started in the 2009 playoffs, and I'm posting now when the 2010-11 season is just beginning).

And I've never seen people try to underrate a team so much my whole life. Unless there are major chemistry and jelling issues (which is unlikely since they took paycuts to play with one another), or if one or two of these players get a sudden major dropoff in their game, this could be the greatest trio the NBA has ever seen.

Yea, Shaq alone is a tough assignment and can score on anyone one on one. So are Wade, LeBron, and even Bosh (though less so than the rest). And you're comparing this to.... what exactly? I'm looking at these players individually. Of course I'll also say that the trio would beat the duo with even teammates.