Nitro

I really think there is no chance after the way Davis has played the last 2 seasons (well, more specifically, post-seasons) that Doc will cut down his minutes to under 15MPG. It won't happen, not for a relatively unproductive 37y.o Shaq and injury-prone, 15 year veteran JO. Davis offers a very different look from the other bigs on the roster, and they will take advantage of it. Once Perkins comes back I can still see JO getting a little over 20MPG like Sheed got last year, but after that there aren't many minutes for Shaq. Doc is very good at player management and will likely find a way to make it work, but once Perkins comes back there is a logjam at the frontcourt positions. And with Shaq's history, if the team is sliding a bit and he's not getting his minutes or touches, he will create chemistry rifts.

I am far from a football expert, but that should without a doubt be a catch. He called the ball with two hands, hit his feet with control of the ball, then fell over and spiked the ball against the ground. I understand there are some crazy loopholes in the rulebook, but that was just an awful call.

And you really believe that'll last? Especially when Perkins comes back and Shaq could potentially be reduced to a third string C?

Shaq will probably start because his ego is far, far too large for the bench, and they don't need a mutiny against Doc like what supposedly happened in Cleveland. However, Jermaine should start. He fits the team's style much, much better with his defense. The Celtics will definitely take a hit next year defensively if Shaq gets major minutes. It will be REALLY interesting to see how Doc manages the C position when Perkins comes back relatively healthy.

Just a few... Jordan vs. Kobe Wilt vs. Shaq Duncan vs. Hakeem McGrady vs. Durant

I'll give Blazed 2 more days to post.

Ehh...I'd take Ron Harper over him. Short made the playoffs only 3x, 2 of them being first round knockouts. He also didn't do much other than score. Harper did a little of everything and played as an inregal part of how many championship teams? 4-5?

Phil Jacksn didn't create the triangle or its principles. Tex Winter did.

Michael Jordan. Amazing leaper, unmatched body control, and what made me put him over a guy like LeBron or even VC is his lightning quick first step.

Not my parents, but my roommate walked in on me jerking it. I was under the covers and literally JUST busted 5 seconds earlier. He didn't notice and I managed to get out of the covers without jizz everywhere, but needless to say I'll be sticking to bathroom sessions from now on.

Interesting. Gay Fish had more substance, but Straight Fish had the better flow. Overall, Gay Fish hit harder... 3-1

Haha...you go from AI to Noah...ok...

Magic Johnson. Simply put he revolutionized the PG position and there probably won't be another player like him in a very, very long time.

Off the top of my head... Ron Harper Career averages (15 seasons): 13.8PPG/4.3RPG/3.9APG/1.7SPG/44.6% shooting Best season (1989-1990): 22.8PPG/5.9RPG/5.3APG/2.3SPG/1.2BPG/47.3% shooting

You said... And in no way, shape or form was Duncan a better paser than KG. KG is the only big man I've ever seen average 6APG for a full season. He had multiple 5APG seasons. His passing is unmatched by any current big man. Also, there have been arguably a few better rebounders as well.

It's not like Duncan's a great FT shooter either, and Shaq's offensive game was not reliant on drawing fouls. It was reliant on dominating near the rim like arguably no one else in NBA history. He scored on higher volume and better efficiency than prime Duncan. He was the better scorer. Rings and overall offensive game doesn't make him a better scorer.

Haha...it goes with the territory of being a jumpshooter compared to low post player. But Duncan is not an extremely efficient post-scorer, and despite Dirk being a "miss 25% of the time" he only shoots about 3-4% worse than a prime Duncan, while shooting about 20% better from the FT line and being a much better clutch performer (both on last second shots and overall 4th quarter performance). I love Duncan, and he is one of the greatest post players in NBA history. But he couldn't score at the same volume Dirk can and isn't much more efficient. It's like saying Duncan is a better scorer than Kobe. He simply isn't. Umm...no. Prime Shaq averaged about 7PPG more than prime Duncan on much better FG%. Period. How about instead of posting a regular season scoring explosion, find me 1 game in Kobe's NBA Finals history in which he played better than Duncan did in either Game 1 or Game 6 of the 2003 Finals... Game 1: 32pts/20reb/6ast/7blk/3stl/11-17 shooting Game 6: 21pts/20reb/10ast/8blk/9-19 shooting

Eh...I'd shove Deng down Denver's throats along with a few others players (like Gibson) and see if they'd bite. Giving up Noah is a huge blow. He's certainly nowhere near the player Melo is, but at the same time having Boozer play the 5 and not having a strong defensive presence by his side (KT can be that in limited minutes) is a scary proposition. And in no way, shape or form is the Rose/Melo/Boozer trio better than Wade/LeBron/Bosh. And they won't fit together better than that trio would like the CP3/Melo/Amare trio would because Rose is not a great playmaking, pass-first PG. He's much more of a scorer. That'd be fine if Melo had LeBron's passing skills, but he doesn't.

Shaq was a better scorer. Dirk is a better scorer. But you could definitely make a case for him overall being better than Shaq. And definitely a much better overall player than Dirk.

Funny...just spent hours debating with Real Deal about who we'd rather take to build a franchise, prime Kobe (him) or prime Duncan (me), then you post this video. Thanks for sharing :glasses:

When I say prime I mean absolute peak seasons. He was still the best player in the game during the 2nd 3-peat, but he just wasn't the same player he was pre-retirement. He changed his playing style to accomodate his loss of athleticism, and as a result of the more jumpshot-oriented attack, he was less efficient and overall effective. When Wade hits 31 you'll see a similar trend. LeBron will probably be the same, but may start experiencing that slide a bit earlier since he has played far more minutes at 25yo than any player in modern NBA history. Also, not every player has that same 5 year window of prime basketball. I consider that window for TD to be from 2000-2003. For T-Mac it'd be 2002-2005. Dirk's had about a 6 year prime that keeps on growing. It really doesn't matter how long that prime was in this topic as long as it lasted a full season.

Internet bad-asses are hilarious...kinda.

Someone's not Livin' La Vida Nitro!

I used that as an example to show what another top 10 all-time wing player has done in terms of scoring explosions in the playoffs to show that Kobe's not exactly doing those exploits much at all in the post-season. More non-Jordan examples... Prime Kobe has 1 50pt game and 6 40pt games in 79 playoff games without Shaq. T-Mac has 4 40pt games in 38 career post-season games. Wade has 6 40pt games in 66 career post-season games. LeBron has 9 40pt games in 71 career post-season games. AI had 3 50pt games and 7 40pt games in 71 career post-season games. In other words, prime Kobe's number of major post-season scoring explosions are very ordinary compared to his peer IN THIS ERA. They are not unique. Comparing him to prime Jordan he gets blown out of the water in that regard. That really, really takes away from your arguement that his crazy scoring explosions are such a huge advantage against Duncan. Prime Duncan leading his team in nearly every major statistical category, anchoring an all-time defense and averaging 25/15/5/3 in the post-season is more impressive than Kobe's slight improvement over regular season stats and generally taking secondary defensive assignments, while not going off for those crazy dominant performances all that often (like MJ did, which is one of many reasons why the MJ-Hakeem debate is a lot different than the Kobe-Duncan debate). Then that's a pretty damn useless statement. My points earlier in this post show how Kobe without Shaq compares in terms of scoring outbursts to several of his current peers. Not very impressive. I was using stats from Kobe's peers to show that it's not unheard of to actually play efficient basketball against those teams for a full series. I could use hypotheticals and say, "Jordan would average 50% shooting against the 2008 Celtics, or would drop 40PPG against the 2009 Magic" but that's senseless. Instead I use tangible evidence from lesser talents who played better than Kobe did against those exact same teams. The fact that he was so inefficient with more help than those other players should speak volumes. Jordan was out of his prime. I'm talking absolute peak seasons. I call 2000-2003 Duncan's peak seasons. Jordan's best play was from '88-'93, and nothing much about his demenour or leadership qualities changed much from the first and second 3-peat. The only thing that changed was he lost a good deal of athleticism, couldn't finish around the rim as well, and as a result wasn't as efficient or effective. Kobe is a bit of a special case. He was not the same leader or polished offensive player in the 1st 3-peat that he was starting around 2006. There is NO WAY I'd want to build my franchise around the younger, more immature Kobe. His athleticism has declined in recent years, but his game is more polished and refined while staying just as efficient as he was when he had the extra boost from young legs. His overall peak in terms of having the mix of athleticism and skill was probably 2002-2007, but his effectiveness hasn't taken a hit as he's gotten older, while his leadership qualities have gotten a lot better. Also, his 2003-2004 and 2004-2005 seasons were very injury riddled which hurt his play. That's why I consider Kobe's prime to be '05-'10. Feel free to disagree, it's personal opinion. In case you forgot, Pippen actually did play in the post quite a bit. And regardless of if Kobe has to feed the post, Gasol takes a full 4 less shots per game than Pippen did at all points of his tenure during the championship years. Jordan in his last 2 Finals' appearances where he struggled still averaged more PPG than Kobe EVER has in 7 tries. Jordan's all-around stats in the Finals, not just scoring, blow Kobe's away. Assists, rebounds, steals, FG%, advanced stats like win-shares, offensive and defensive rating...they all trump Kobe's by a hefty margin. Also, to even hint that Kobe has EVER been restricted in terms of shot attempts is ludacrous. Since he started to hit his groove around 2002 he's ALWAYS had the greenlight to jack up 30+ FGA. Never said it's unheard of, but it's pretty common sense that when a player who relies heavily on driving to the basket loses a step or two, his FG% will plummet. For Kobe this was never the case because he was always primarily a jumpshooter since he really hit his groove, which is why with some extra work in the gym he's stayed at the same 45-46% shooting virtually his entire career (which has been an historically long one which is why Kobe is an unbelievable specimen). With Jordan, he went from being arguably the greatest slasher in NBA history to primarily a midrange player in the 2nd 3-peat. Still effective slashing, but not what he once was. And even after that transformation, he was still more efficient than Kobe ever has been...ever. Your point? Kobe's played in 7 Finals', Jordan 6. Jordan shot 43% or better 5x. Kobe only twice. Jordan never shot below 40% in any of those series'. Kobe did twice. I mean, it's pretty straight-forward. Missing an average of 3 more shots per games is a HUGE difference. If he missed 3 shots per game more that series the team would have lost as 3 of the Bulls' 4 wins were decided by 4pts or less. Once again, trying to rationalize rationalize rationalize history with unrational views. Stop. Please. Anyway, I'm done with this. It's getting tiring, off-topic and we're just gonna keep going in circles. But as always awesome to debate with you, B. It keeps my basketball knowledge sharp when I have to watch Team USA destroy Angola during the NBA off-season

On Front Street?!?