Nitro

Then we have a very different view on how this list should be made. Give me Battier's consistently great defense, hustle, charges and intangibles over a guy who switches to lockdown mode only in certain situations. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Kobe is not as sound of a defender as Battier and is easily prone to over-reacting and playing below average off-ball defense (he turns his head on his man and attacks double teams way too often IMO, and I don't think I've ever seen him take a charge). Let me rephrase- When Kobe didn't have world class players around him, his defense suffered. Kobe was the most overrated defender in the league those few years (04-08). He got those nods based on his reputation from the 3-peat years of being a consistent lockdown defender. My point in bringing up Wade and LeBron being on the All-Defensive teams in that topic was to show they aren't "average" defenders like kingfish said. If I was that much of a hypocrite, one of those two would be in my top 5. Yes. Battier has 2 inches on Kobe and isn't as easily juked by pump and ball fakes, and won't get caught fouling Durant on that swing-through move where he draws fouls on the jumper. I think Artest is the perfect defender against Durant because of his physicality, though. Bingo. How we value defense and what makes a great defender is definitely different so this arguement is futile.

You're talking like Battier's some stiff. He has adequate enough quickness to guard swingmen, and even though he isn't Ron Artest physical, he's a guy that gets under your skin (much like teammate Chuck Hayes). Even though he doesn't have Kobe's speed or athleticism, he understands positioning and angles so well that it's very difficult to cleanly get by him. I'll just post this video since it's going to be a my word vs. your word thing (I would have picked the video where Kobe misses the shots with Battier defending him, but there weren't many clips in the video. This video shows just how difficult Battier makes things for a guy like Kobe, nothing more can be done defensively on most of those plays)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG3T2_ARZMM&feature=related That's just one scenario of the game. Over the course of the game, Battier does a lot more on the defensive end than Kobe does...he's consistent, one of the best in the league at contesting shots, great at taking charges, makes all the hustle plays, etc... Kobe makes too many defensive lapses over the course of the game to put him over Battier on my list. Basketball is a team game and I rank these defenders in that context. When Kobe has the help of a great defensive supporting cast, he flourishes. When he doesn't, his defense suffers. Same with Artest. Same with Battier. Same with EVERY great perimeter defender (and to a lesser degree interior defender). Put these guys on an island and have them play the best offensive players in the league one-on-one and they'll get roasted more often than not. Help defense is key. Great defenders do what they can individually (like Battier does), and properly funnel the players into the help defense. That's what makes a great defensive team, and I guess that's why I value Battier so high. Eh...they'd put Ariza on Westbrook and Battier on Durant. Comparing Battier to Artest is a lot more fair than comparing Battier to Kobe. If you take Kobe off the Lakers and enter, say, Joe Johnson, the Lakers probably wouldn't be putting Artest on Westbrook either.

To call two All-Defensive team players average is stupid, and that's my point. If you want me to use examples, check out LeBron shutting down Paul Pierce in the conference semi's, or Wade's 2.2SPG/1.3BPG in 08-09 and very good opponent counterpart stats on 82games.com. Wade and LeBron are very good defensive players. Neither are in my top 5, but they are way above average. 1) Let me rephrase- Bringing up Bosh's lankiness is pointless because KG was/is exactly the same. I was NOT implying Bosh is the defender KG is or was. 2) I wouldn't call it turning on a switch, but yes, Bosh will without a doubt be a better defensive player next season. There's 3 extremeley important things that a player who's not known for defense needs to become proficient in that area- A defensive minded coach (which Spoelstra is), a good defensive supporting cast (which he will have), and energy to exert on that end of the floor (which he will have now that he doesn't have to drop 24PPG). If you watched the 2008 Olympics, you will see when Bosh puts his mind to it, he's a quality defender. And now that he will actually get to play PF as opposed to C, things will be even better than what we're accustomed to from last year's Bosh. More specifically, Udonis Haslem, the dude that shut Dirk Nowitzki down and will be on the Heat this upcoming season. But nice try, though.

That goes for ANY perimeter defensive player. Kobe wasn't the same defender back in the mid-2000's, and the increased offensive load was only part of it. Artest wasn't as effective with the Kings as he was with the Pacers, Rockets and Lakers. It's because good offensive players that can take you off the dribble and shoot will beat a great individual defender more often than not. Help defense is key to any great perimeter defender, and it's why great defensive big men are more valuable (IMO). Secondly, even before last season Yao played in only a little more than half the games Battier played on the Rockets. Artest had virtually no impact on his defense as Battier was an elite defender dating back to his Memphis days through his first 2 years on the Rockets. Battier's defense fell off a bit last season because he had some injuries and the roster went from being defense-oriented to offense-oriented in the matter of about a year. That has to do with an entirely new roster and coach with an offensive philosophy. You're right, he does need help to have maximum effectiveness, but if we're make this list with the assumption everyone is healthy, Battier is virtually the exact same defender as a few seasons ago. First off, Battier is a FANTASTIC on-ball defender. Just because he doesn't necessarily rough you up like Artest doesn't mean he's not as good/better. Artest's strengths are his toughness, size and quick hands. However, even now he doesn't have the lateral speed that Battier has, doesn't have as good of positioning/footwork, gambles more than Battier and doesn't contest shots as well as Battier. Trust me, watching both on the Rockets last season, Battier's the better, more consistent on-ball defender. As for Kobe...eh. He doesn't put the effort in all the time, he's an average to poor help defender (always seems to over-commit to double teams and at times looks lost), and he over-reacts with his on-ball defense. However, when he chooses to lock someone down, he's damn good at it.

Billups isn't the same defender he was a few years ago. While he's still better than Nash in that regard, he's not an elite defender at the position anymore. Nash wins this by a mile and it isn't even close. Lightyears better as a passer/playmaker, a far more efficient scorer from all ranges, and I'd say he's the more clutch player as well... http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

Yep. Two players that made All-Defensive teams last season are average defenders. Right. So is/was KG. Your point? And he played great defense at the 2008 Olympics. Let's see him on a defense-oriented team where he's playing his natural position before calling him a pathetic defender. Ask Dirk.

I think it has more to do with him playing out of position a lot. Last season he played over triple the amount of time at SG as opposed to SF. At SF, he allowed 10% EFG worse shooting than at SG. In 2008-2009, he played each position half the time and had similar success defending SF's as opposed to SG. In 2007-2008, he played absolutely no SG and much like every season his opponent counterpart numbers at SF were stellar. I also think it's kinda hypocritical to leave Battier out of the top 5 when you have Artest and Kobe, who have both lost a step or two, in your top 3. Watching a LOT of Rockets games from 04-09 (I'm a T-Mac stan) I can tell you that Battier's a better defensive player than Ron, and certainly better than Kobe.

Eh go with Nets lol...

Rebounding for a PG is EXTREMELY valuable. When your PG is grabbing 7.4 boards per game like Kidd did in 04-05, that's a huge boost to the team. In fact, that season he LED THE NETS IN REBOUNDING! As you mentioned, it is also an awesome tool to have for transition oppertunities, which is one of the major reasons Kidd's Nets made the Finals twice. Even if the fastbreak doesn't earn him a bucket, it still puts a lot of pressure on the defense. I was just watching the 2002 NBA Finals game 3 on Monday and countless times he's grab the board, rush down the floor, and as the defense was finally starting to set he'd hit an open cutter on the baseline or for a 3 pointer. His rebounding opens up offense. He was also crap defensively with the Mavs as well. In his prime Kidd was absolutely an elite defender. Quick enough to guard explosive PG's, strong enough to guard post-up PG's like Chauncey Billups and Baron Davis. No...just no. If you are going to say Nash is LIGHT YEARS ahead in playmaking, you have to use the same excuse you used for Nash's defense...the system. If this were the summer of 2004 (summer he signed with Phoenix, was 30 years old), no one would say Nash is light years a better playmaker. In fact, most would say Jason Kidd's the better playmaker. Nash never even averaged 9.0APG on the Mavs. Kidd had Keith Van Horn, Kenyon Martin and Kerry Kittles to pass to during the back-to-back Finals appearances. That was, despite their fastbreaking style, a defense-oriented team. Nash has been on an all-offense team since 2004 with guys like Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Jason Richardson, Joe Johnson and plenty of others to pass to. Anyway, I'd pick Nash by a VERY small margin. They are about even as passers/playmakers, and while a prime Kidd was a much better defender, Nash is a much better scorer. Kidd simply has always had too many nights and long stretches where no shot he takes will go down. With Nash, if he has any room, it's going in.

They could be with all that talent, but they are too inconsistent. The thing that made the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics so great on that end of the floor was they came with the mentality to shut you down every single night. The Lakers do not. With the additions of Barnes, Blake and Ratliff (who, to be fair, hasn't played at least 60 games in the last 5 seasons), the bench's defense should get a lot better, which will be a major boost. But as long as Fisher is the starting PG, Kobe keeps turning the on/off switch and Bynum learns better rotations, I think they'll just be a great defensive team. Not all-time great.

BTW I was just looking it up and the 2007-2008 Celtics held teams to 41.9% shooting, not 38%.

SumtiNSpecial. Dabearfan is a Illuminati hater

That's for every perimeter defensive player, though. The great offensive players will almost always beat the great defensive player. Help defense is how you shutdown superstars, as the Boston Celtics have proven many times.

I got bored so I'll be first to post in this tourney.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This a verbal stickup so sit up and listen I’ll leave you [expletive]ed up like Real Deal’s vision Ha, I hope that doesn’t warrant a ban But I’ll be damned if I lose to a Warriors stan Who posts about Illuminati expecting vast disccusion When its tat’d on my arm, planning mass destruction You labeled as a writer, but my flow is even tighter Your raps are like bad head, ya nothing but a biter The Warriors swung hard yet they [expletive]in bunted I’m cyber hittin blunts, ya reputations growth has stunted Confidence spared you twice, a silly little price To enter up this slughter, I burn in holy water Cuz I’m a demon who’s treatin you like a lady “Ladies exit first!” ask Tracy McGrady I’m done with this [expletive], it’s already dead to me Gimme my +1, so begins my Legacy

Not to interrupt ya'll, but even though he's a half-step slower than a year or two ago, he's still the smartest perimeter defender in the league. Plays hard, knows how to play angles, make strong use of face-guarding, takes charges, etc... IMO the one year he was with Houston I thought he was clearly a better player than Artest.

First round has been posted in the Run Yo Mouth forum. I just used the order we signed up in, threw the names in a hat, and out came the result. As opposed to the last contest, I've made it so the higher seeds (#-wise) for first. If you are ranked #4 and are playing #5, #4 is expected to post first.

Rules 1) 16 lines max. 2) At least one of those lines must be about your opponent's favorite sports team (basketball, football, etc). 3) One line has to end with your opponent's display name on OTR. You can exclude numbers. For example, "Fish" can be used in this battle. 4) Cussing will be censored if you decide to use it. Don't bypass the censor with asterisks or other symbols. 5) If you say Dick Vitale's first name, please censor it yourself by typing [expletive]. In the manner it would be used in this contest, it should be filtered out. NOBODY ELSE POST IN THIS TOPIC UNTIL THE SECOND RAP IS ADDED. After both competitors are finished, members can place their vote. Please explain your vote. The lower seeds (#-wise) go first. Based on this match-up, Blazed49 will be asked to post his. You have two days to post.

Rules 1) 16 lines max. 2) At least one of those lines must be about your opponent's favorite sports team (basketball, football, etc). 3) One line has to end with your opponent's display name on OTR. You can exclude numbers. For example, "Fish" can be used in this battle. 4) Cussing will be censored if you decide to use it. Don't bypass the censor with asterisks or other symbols. 5) If you say Dick Vitale's first name, please censor it yourself by typing [expletive]. In the manner it would be used in this contest, it should be filtered out. NOBODY ELSE POST IN THIS TOPIC UNTIL THE SECOND RAP IS ADDED. After both competitors are finished, members can place their vote. Please explain your vote. The lower seed (@-wise) go first. Based on this match-up, Confidencewill be asked to post his. You have two days to post.

Rules 1) 16 lines max. 2) At least one of those lines must be about your opponent's favorite sports team (basketball, football, etc). 3) One line has to end with your opponent's display name on OTR. You can exclude numbers. For example, "Fish" can be used in this battle. 4) Cussing will be censored if you decide to use it. Don't bypass the censor with asterisks or other symbols. 5) If you say Dick Vitale's first name, please censor it yourself by typing [expletive]. In the manner it would be used in this contest, it should be filtered out. NOBODY ELSE POST IN THIS TOPIC UNTIL THE SECOND RAP IS ADDED. After both competitors are finished, members can place their vote. Please explain your vote. The lower seeds (#-wise) go first. Based on this match-up, Hawks Fly High will be asked to post his, followed by Swish. You have two days to post.

Rules 1) 16 lines max. 2) At least one of those lines must be about your opponent's favorite sports team (basketball, football, etc). 3) One line has to end with your opponent's display name on OTR. You can exclude numbers. For example, "Fish" can be used in this battle. 4) Cussing will be censored if you decide to use it. Don't bypass the censor with asterisks or other symbols. 5) If you say Dick Vitale's first name, please censor it yourself by typing [expletive]. In the manner it would be used in this contest, it should be filtered out. NOBODY ELSE POST IN THIS TOPIC UNTIL THE SECOND RAP IS ADDED. After both competitors are finished, members can place their vote. Please explain your vote. The lower seeds (#-wise) go first. Based on this match-up, Nitro will be asked to post his. You have two days to post.

Ehh...I don't know about a Martin/Melo pair. If this was T-Mac of '05-'07, then you might be right. But two guys that love to have the ball in their hands and are neither impressive playmakers is a recepie for disaster. Not to mention Yao isn't exactly Chris Webber or Bill Walton passing the ball. That's not even mentioning the biggest issue; Yao's foot. As for Melo preferring Houston, I'm inclined to paraphrase what CP3 said about possibly being traded to the Blazers awhile back...If you demand a trade and a certain team makes an offer, why would Melo choose a team that would require much of what makes them a pretty damn good team already be traded away? When he could be an unrestricted FA in just a year.

Bingo, which is why I didn't put him in my personal top 5. Last season he managed just 24.9MPG becuase of 4.0 foul per game. I was very big on Oden when he was coming out of Ohio State, and had it not been for the injuries I think he would have probably won DPOY this season. Howeverrrrr he's played just 82 games in 3 combined seasons. I just can't put him on the listen until he proves something. If he did a bang-up job on Yao in the 2009 playoffs, that would have been a great start to making his claim.

First off, J-Rich ain't the athlete JR is at the moment, but back in the day? J-Rich was a FREAK. Secondly, have elite skills are just a part of being a truly elite player. You got to have heart, proper attitude, discipline, maturity and ways you can effectively (and efficiently) maximize your skills. Why everyone questions JR is for all these reasons. And time is ticking away. A lot of those things don't change6-7 years into the league. Because of this guy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNmU1esUF4k

This is really, really tough... 1) Dwight Howard 2) Shane Battier 3) Ron Artest 4) Kevin Garnett (blah blag blah he's old...his defense is still the key to the Celtics' success) 5) Thabo Selfolosha

My favorite T-Mac video (I'm sorry youtube took the audi down...listen to Too Much by the Game while watching it) is this one... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGyyWdRsQ5o&feature=related He was my favorite player for many years. Watched every Rockets game for 2 years in Chinese because I wanted to see him play/ It's a damn shame he had a fragile body and a severe lack of motivation. You heard it here- T-Mac is arguably the only player in the league that is PROBABLY more talented than Kobe (I've seen Kobe bite at least 2 of T-Mac's moves, too). He was an unebelievably well-rounded scorer, amazing passer at his position, had better handles than other elite swingmen (like Kobe, LeBron, JJ, etc... )grabbed boards, played decent defense and the thing about him that's way underrated is that HE DID SHOW-UP and played very well in the playoffs; 28.5PPG/6.9RPG/6.2APG CAREER in post-season. It was difficult watching him last year.