Nitro

MJ returned to the Wizards because he was a big part of their management and he wanted to single-handedly bring the franchise back to prominance. The money was not the issue, as he accepted $1M in each of his 2 seasons with the Wizards. That's MJ's competitive spirit going out of control (and trust me, if there was any chance of his body being able to give the Bobcats 20-30MPG, he'd be back on the hardwood). And as badly as fans wanted his legacy to end with the shot over Russel, there is no one that didn't want to see him back in the NBA again. He got louder cheers at opponent arenas on every shot make than the hometown players got. I am not going to quote your entire post and dissect everything, so I'll sum it up... My point is that for LeBron to reach that unprecendented level of superstardom from a financial/marketing aspect, he has to win. Right now he is still viewed as a prodigy with the untapped potential to be a true legend. Because of this he has, for the most part, gotten a pass for not winning a championship(s). Now entering his 8th season he is starting to feel that pressure. He went from being the concensus best player in the NBA in April to a distant 2nd in May. Kobe went from being considered washed up/inferior to Kevin Durant in April to arguably GOAT in June. Really the only thing that changed in that time was a poor, weak-hearted performance against the Celtics by LeBron, and Kobe playing through various injuries and playing his [expletive] off en route to yet another championship. People have incredibly short-term memories, but my point is fans value championships and heart above everything else. And what the fan wants directly dictates a player's success in his life off the court. If LeBron doesn't win championships, then his financial success and fame off the court will come to a screeching halt once he declines/retires. And honestly, I really don't think LeBron is worrying about going bankrupt. He's a smart, sensible guy, and the reason for him wanting to be a billionaire is not to prevent bankruptcy. Rather it is status, as you mentioned. But how many retired athletes still in the spotlight DON'T have rings? The only one I can think of is Charles Barkley, but that's because of his personality and ability to be a legend on the mic. Otherwise, the athletes who are relevant from a marketing/financial aspect in retirement are there because they showed all-around dominance of their sport, which includes championships. Basically, if LeBron wants to reach the goal of being the most prolific athlete of all-time from an off the court standpoint, he needs to perform as the most prolific player of all-time on the court. There have been so many outstanding athletes that have dominated their sport from a production standpoint yet crucified because they didn't win (T-Mac, KG pre-Celtics, A-Rod pre-2009, etc...). T-Mac is so far out of the spotlight now and has 0 chance to redeem himself, which is a shame because he was a guy that was able to put up 32/6/6 in 2002-2003 and have the world at his fingertips. Had KG and A-Rod failed to get those championships, they would have always been viewed as elite talents that could never achieve the ultimate goal of winning a ring. They would have had "status" until retirement, when a new generation of possibly even greater talents came along to steal the spotlight. W What seperates elite players from elite players, both on and off the court, is winning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvxijHNWB4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm6BEk3ktAQ With all this talk about Kobe/MJ, I decided to go to youtube and look up my favorite Jordan mix, The Artistry of Michael Jordan Pt I by Hoopsencyclopedia. Little did I know, he made a 2nd one, equally as amazing, so I included it. By the way, Hoopsencyclopedia has dozens of videos of Jordan's greatest games, just his points/highlighs with the broadcast audio there. Evidently he started recording every Jordan game in VHS form once he realized he was watching something special. For the people who have only seen the highlights of his dunks and know very little of his all-around game, I strongly suggest taking a look. PS- I believe both videos have HQ options, so double click and open them up in the new tab, then watch the higher quality versions.

Once again, nitpicking one part of my post without addressing the actual substance. Now that we got that out of the way, please tell me the following- Do you honestly think that without all these crazy tactics to lure him that LeBron doesn't already know what it means to be a winner in NY? To play in front of the best crowd in the league? To play at the world's most famous arena? To play in front of celebrities? If he already knows those things, then what difference does having a committee and doing all these crazy things to lure him mean? He already knows every single team in the NBA and their fans want him, and the Knicks making every roster move in the last 2 years to land him without verbal committment is the ultimate flattery. That is why I have 0 belief that all these tricks the Knicks are playing to land him mean ANYTHING, and will make non difference in if he decides to go to NY or not.

STL10, a lot of the points you made in your post were solid, but my only problem is the assumption that in virtually every scenario Chris Bosh is going to follow him. Guys like Bosh, Amare...we just don't know what their intentions are during this FA. We know both want max money, but after that it's a very gray area. I really don't think anyone knows where LeBron is going until things start falling into place. For NY, NJ, Miami...more than half the teams' rosters aren't even in place yet, so it'd be stupid for LeBron to already know where he's going or where he should go (unless he's totally sold on the NY mystique, the Bulls roster, or staying in his hometown).

To quote just one line of my post and asking me if I'm Ms. Cleo without defending why all that crap WOULD help lure LeBron to NY is a contradiction in itself. I don't 100% know, neither do you, and to bypass all the actual points I made in my post to nitpick one line is stupid. Just like the Knicks hiring a committee to lure LeBron.

Eh, I agree to an extent with what he's saying. I agree with the fact that his skills have fallen off, especially from a creative standpoint. I also agree with his analysis of 'No Love' in the sense that a lot of the guest appearances on this album just don't mesh with Em. With that said, having struggled with addiction and crap, I relate a lot to the album. And even though his skills have fallen off from his older stuff, he's still got arguably the most talent in the game. I know most people like the funnier/lighter side of Em, but I love the more real/serious direction he went with Recovery.

If he wants to be a billionaire and marketing giant, New York. If he wants to win, we'll have to see how the draft and beginning of free agency begin. Gotta love NY fans, though. Freak the [expletive] out everytime someone thinks anything differently of LeBron going to NY. All the years of bombing in hopes of being able to lure the King, I understand why you guys are so touchy about it on the web, in the papers and everytime I listen to WFAN. An entire decade of being the worst run, most embarassing orginization in the league wiped clean over signing a league MVP. Understandable. And if they don't land him or Wade, it will be without a doubt the funniest thing every other NBA fan has ever seen.

You're right it was an expansion era when he was winning his titles, but the competition was still there. He beat the great '90's Knicks on multiple occasions, the back-to-back champion Pistons, tough Stockton/Malone-led Utah Jazz twice, Magic's [old] Lakers, Clyde's Blazers, Payton/Kemp's Sonics, league MVP Barkley's Suns...the league was a lot more diluted of talent in the early '00's than it was when Jordan was winning rings (not saying the 3-peat Lakers weren't good, they would have won championships regardless of the era they played in).

I know what you mean, but Jordan didn't exactly have an offensive cast that could light you up. Keep in mind, the 3pt line was still new, and besides Jordan only one other player (Paxson) averaged more than 1.1 3PA. Scottie was stil young, and after that it was Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright. Still undoubtedly better than what Kobe had in 05-06 (the year Kobe was robbed of MVP), but nontheless it wasn't anywhere near the talent people associate with the 6x champion Bulls. Yeah, between these two we could go on and on with the big games. I will say though that while both have had 4 60pt+ games, Jordan had 39 50pt+ games to Kobe's 25. Kind of a microcosm of debating who is the better scorer (Kobe more skilled/streaky, Jordan more consistent).

I liked most of your post, all personal opinion that I won't debate. Just one thing... Jordan averaged 33.6PPG on 3 less FGA in his first year in the triangle than Kobe did to get his 35PPG. Kobe also took 2 more FTA's per game, which is not only an ode to how difficult it was to get foul calls back in the late '80's/early '90's, but I consider it an extra shot attempt. So, it basically took Kobe 4 more shots to get 1.5PPG more. As for Kobe's 81pt game, it's the greatest scoring achievment in NBA history. WITH THAT SAID...when Jordan scored his 69pts, he did it on 7 less FGA, and he also threw in 18 rebounds, 6 assists and 4 steals. Just saying...

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/12590-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant/ Made the topic so we can keep away from flodding every topic about Kobe and his legacy. In there is my in-depth analysis of the debate, going beyond JUST numbers.

Since it was inevitable with Kobe winning his 5th ring, there's plenty of people once again comparing MJ to Kobe. So, to keep all the discussion in one topic, here it is. Here's my arguement... Accomplishments/Accolades: This area doesn't mean a whole lot to me as they are both 2 of the most accomplished players in the league. But, here's how it breaks down... Championships: Jordan-6, Kobe-5 MVP's: Jordan-5, Kobe-1 Finals MVP's: Jordan-6, Kobe-2 Defensive Player of the Year: Jordan-1, Kobe-0 Scoring Titles: Jordan-10, Kobe-2 All-NBA First Team: Jordan-10, Kobe-8 All-NBA First Team Defense: Jordan-9, Kobe-8 All-Star Game MVP's: Jordan-3, Kobe-3 It's unfair to put a ton of weight in this area, but regardless if Kobe wins more rings than MJ, I think it's safe to say that Jordan's individual accolades will never really be matched by anyone in the modern era. The Real Debate- X's and O's: This is where the real debate is. Seeing as how they are both so accomplished and have such similar personalities and characteristics that exemplify greatness, it all comes down to the X's and O's. Before I begin...I am comparing them based on the players they were in their absolute primes. I consider Jordan's prime to be '88-'93, and Kobe's to be '05-'10. With that said, here's how I break it down. Scoring: Obviously the strongest area of both player's games. The two greatest scorers in NBA history. I'll start off by saying Kobe is WITHOUT A DOUBT the most skilled scorer the league has ever seen. No one has ever had the truly complete package he has. Where Kobe truly elipses Jordan as a scorer is shooting...he's a much better 3pt shooter, slightly better shooter in the midrange game, a slightly better FT shooter and a slightly better left hand. Both players are about equal in terms of footwork, use of pump fakes, etc... Kobe has a few moves he uses on very rare occasions that Jordan didn't have, but they are also very low % shots. Nontheless, nice to have in the repetoire. Where Jordan has the big edge on Kobe is efficiency. As a general example aside from using season FG %, in 1991-1992, Jordan played 80 games and only had EIGHT games of shooting below 40%. In 2006-2007, the most comparable season Kobe had to Jordan's 91-92 campaign, he played 77 games and had TWENTY games of shooting below 40%. I know people will say that number is such because Kobe doesn't drive to the rim as much as MJ did, but let's take Dwyne Wade...in 2008-2009, where he averaged 30PPG on a terrific 49% shooting, he had 8 games of shooting below 40% 1.5 months into the season. There is something to be said for Jordan's amazing efficiency and consistency, and it goes beyond just him attacking the rim. Anyway, the reason Jordan was so efficient is a two-fold. A) Not only did he drive more than Kobe, but he was much quicker, stronger, had bigger hands (Phil Jackson mentions this a lot) and a higher vertical leap, allowing him to finish much better than Kobe at the rim. Jordan was an absolute freak athlete that really only LeBron James has come close to from a physical standpoint. B) Shot selection. Jordan was in no way, shape or form a better shooter than Kobe, but he also didn't take 5+ 3pt shots per game as Kobe does. Jordan kept his 3pt jacks to a minimum, taking 1-3 of them per game in that 5-year span. However, he wasn't a bad 3pt shooter, and in the two seasons in his prime that he took over 2 3PA, he shot 37% and 35%, respectively. Kobe has never shot 37% from 3, and taking 5+ a game really lowers his overall FG %. On top of the efficiency and fact that Jordan was a much better slasher, he also had a TERRIFIC midrange game, which is what seperates him from players like LeBron and Wade. He had incredible footwork, midrange jumper, fadeaway jumper, ability in the post, pump-fakes, ball-fakes...he was the complete package from inside the arc. Kobe arguably has more moves and a better jumper, but Jordan's driving ability made it harder for players to get in his jersey, allowing for some easier looks. My winner- Jordan. The advantage Jordan had in effiency and consistency simply outweighs Kobe's advantage in skill, at least IMO. Defense: Personally if there is an area that I don't think is much of a conversation, it's defense. Jordan and Kobe can both be considered lockdown defenders, but Jordan was the better of the two. He was more consistently great on defense, had greater lateral quickness, greater strength, and much quicker hands and ability to create TO's. Twice in the 5-year span I am comparing them in Jordan led the league in steals twice at nearly 3 a game, and he was the 1988 DPOY. Jordan is considered by many as the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history. Kobe is a great defensive player, but he just isn't Jordan. My winner- Jordan. Playmaking/Passing/Ballhandling: Another area that comes down to skill vs. effectiveness. Kobe is the more skilled ballhandler and about equally skilled of a passer. He can make virtually any pass on the court, and can certainly orchestrate an offense pretty well. However, Kobe is very TO prone, and being more of a shooter than Jordan it's more difficult to set his teammates up for open shots without collapsing the defense like Jordan did so well. Because of this, Jordan averaged 6APG+ 3x in that 5-year span, including an 8APG season. In that span, he averaged over 3TO's per game twice. Meanwhile, in the last 5 years Kobe hasn't had one season of over 5.5APG, and has eclipsed the 3TO mark 4 of the 5 seasons. My winner- Jordan. Jordan was CLEARLY the more productive player in this area, and give me that production over raw skill. Rebounding: Jordan never averaged below 6RPG in that 5-year span...Kobe has averaged over 6RPG only once the last 5 seasons. For you advanced stat nuts, if you want to go by TRB%, Kobe never was above a 9.0 while Jordan was never below a 9.5. Aside from pure stats, Jordan was stronger, quicker, had better hands and a higher vertical leap...not surprising he was a better rebounder. My Winner- Jordan. Clutch Play: This is where things get interesting. If I was to pick one to take the last shot of a ball-game, I'd take Kobe. Having more moves in his arsenal and being a better shooter from all ranges, there is no shot he can't hit. If you force him into a jumper or put him to the FT line, I trust him more than Jordan to hit the shot. With that said, clutch play has more to do with just hitting the final shot. I consider playing big in the entire post-season as being clutch. Here are there stats in the post-season: Jordan '88-'93: 34.2PPG, 6.8APG, 6.7RPG, 50.0% FG, 83.0% FT, 36.0% 3PT, 2.3SPG, 3.2 TO Kobe '05-'10: 29.9PPG, 5.5APG, 5.6RPG, 47.0% FG, 85.0% FT, 36.0% 3PT, 1.4SPG, 3.3 TO As you can see, Jordan was an absolute monster in the post-season. Not saying Kobe isn't because he is, but Jordan was a better post-season performer in his prime than Kobe is. Winner- Draw. Both have their perks and disadvantages. Two best clutch players in NBA history. Overall, I think my breakdown of the two's games shows who I think is truly the better player, at least when each was at their absolute best with similar supporting casts, same coach, etc... Jordan is the GOAT IMO, and as amazing as Kobe has been in his prime years, Jordan was simply better. Debate on...

Wilbon's an idiot. And was it bothering anyone else how much he was riding Magic Johnson's dick the entire series? It was disgusting.

The difference is LeBron is not a better scorer than Kobe like Jordan was, LeBron is nowhere NEAR the clutch player Jordan or Kobe were/are, and LeBron is NOT a better defender than Kobe like Jordan was. Jordan is considered by many as the greatest perimeter defender in NBA HISTORY, and really the only player that has been the very best in the league on both ends at the same time. To compare LeBron's defense to Jordan's is a mockery. Kobe and Jordan have such similar personalities and "greatness" characteristics that the arguement of Kobe vs. Jordan comes down to x's and o's. LeBron just doesn't have that, so there's a lot more complexities in comparing LeBron to them. And keep in mind, before LeBron did what he did in that Celtics series, I had him as the best player in the league. Now, it's really hard to defend him on that front. My bad, it was the next season he shot 45.6% shooting to go with 20PPG. I'd argue injuries and the rust of not playing in 3-4 years for his low shooting % that first season, but it is what it is. Nontheless, at 40 years old MJ was still a 20/6/4 on 45% shooting player in a league where zone defense was legal. To say Jordan's stats are so inflated because of zone defense is ridiculous.

Different league, different era. In Jordan's rookie season only 10 teams had .500 records or better. This season, 16 teams had .500 records or better. The Bulls still made the playoffs in both of Jordan's first few seasons, something Bron didn't experience 'till his third.

Please. Yes, zone defenses were illegal back in MJ's prime. However, hanchecks weren't, and defenses were far more physical. Jordan drove the lane far more than Kobe until the very end of his career, yet averaged only 7-8 FT's per game throughout the '90's. To compare, Dirk Nowitzki gets to the line that much. And scoring is only a fraction of my arguement for Jordan being better than Kobe. The assists, rebounding, TO's and defense are all on MJ's side as well. Also, when MJ came back at 40 years old after zone defense was legalized, he averaged 23PPG on 45% shooting. Oldest player to have a 50pt game. That was with Jordan not being able to finish a dunk at the All-Star game and having 0 help. What would he do if he was 25? Same thing he did when he was 25...35/5.9/5.5 on 54% shooting, Defensive Player of the Year. Completely agreed. Doesn't make him more effective, though.

I don't know, it's still too early to tell. And honestly, too many of us here weren't even born before Magic and Bird's best days were behind them, and even fewer of us ever got to see the likes of Wilt, Russell, West, Kareem, etc... Hell, a bunch of people here don't even remember the players MJ, Hakeem or even a young Shaq were. And people always have short-term memories...just 2 months ago a few people here (and elsewhere) were saying Durant is right there or even BETTER than Kobe. 2 months later Kobe's GOAT. Let the man play and when he's done, then start stacking him up with the all-time greats.

Really? It can be ripped apart in seconds? Make the topic, and I'll rip apart whatever arguement you make. And MJ couldn't do [expletive] without Horace Grant? What about Kobe never doing crap without Shaq (top 10 all-time) or Pau Gasol (arguably the best big in the game, something Grant never was remotely considered)? It's a stupid arguement because NO player has EVER done it alone, or without a somewhat balanced supporting cast.

It doesn't take a mind-reader to know that LeBron knows what to expect in NY from every perspective except on the basketball court. I'm sure all these crazy tactics to lure him are flattering, but if he wants to win, he'll go to a mid-large market that offers him the best shot to win. That could be NY, but with half the roster yet to be signed, that's impossible to know yet. If he values the "other" stuff like being a billionaire and all that more than winning, then NY is the clear favorite to land him. Neither of those scenarios change with all these flatteries. Also, considering the Knicks have made every decision in the last 2-3 years in effort to land LeBron, that should be flattering enough.

No one needs to tell LeBron that NY is the country's largest and most lucrative market. No one needs to tell LeBron that the fans are the best in the league. No one needs to tell LeBron the legend he could be if he won a few titles in NY. If he wants to be a billionaire and wants that added fame (which is already on such a disgusting level), then he already knows NY is the spot. He knows WHEREVER he goes he will be worshiped. If he cares about winning, then it'll all come down to who has the best combo of GM/coach/supporting cast of players with both a short and long term plan.

I'll happily argue that Kobe is NOT better than Jordan, and virtually every stat and accolade will defend that. Kobe's definately the most skilled player ever, but skill doesn't necessarily equal greatness or pure effectiveness. But make that topic, and I'll lay out my arguement. That is NOT to discredit Kobe AT ALL. He's arguably top 5 all-time already and he's still in his prime years coming off back-to-back championships. Comparing anyone of any sport to MJ is an accomplishment in itself, and IMO MJ is the greatest athlete that's ever lived. It's almost an impossible and unfair feat to say anyone is better than he was.

I know this, and it proves my point. 1) If LeBron's primary goal is to be the first NBA billionaire as a player, he will NEVER be considered the greatest player who has ever lived, or even the greatest player of his generation. 2) Status is attained by what you do in your sport, not how high your exposure is off the court or how much money you make. Jordan made $90,200,000 over his career on the court...LeBron had a $90M contract with Nike months before he ever stepped on an NBA court as an 18 year-old. When Jordan first retired he was considered the greatest ever and a marketing icon...and he was only taking in $4M a year. When he re-entered the game he was taking in a staggering $30M a year, but my point is that money and exposure don't mean more than winning and TRULY dominating a sport. 3) Why has Jordan made so much money since retiring? Why has his brand flourished even after his 40" vertical jump and 50pt games went away? There have been plenty of freak athletes who have put up ridiculous stats in NBA history, but what set Jordan apart and what has kept his brand going is the 6 rings and countless career accolades. His titles coupled with his talent made him a legend. Take the titles away, and he's just an upgraded Dr. J. Hell, most people under 20 years old don't even remember Jordan as a player, just some old highlights. But they DO remember the legacy, something Bron hasn't even began to touch and will never touch if he doesn't WIN. KG actually gave LeBron some of the best advice I've heard, saying, "You can't get your youth back." James is entering his 8th NBA season...that was just about the athletic prime for Kobe. For T-Mac, with all his potential and freakish ability, he only declined after his 8th season due to injuries. Garnett hit his highest point his 9th season and only declined after that. LeBron, a person whose offensive game is so dependant on athletic ability (as opposed to say Kobe, whose unmatched basketball skills negated the athletic decline), should be looking to win NOW. One bad injury and his career will never be the same. You can't just assume the guy will be averaging 30/8/8 for the next decade, it just won't happen. And it's not the fact that the Knicks won't have what it takes to compete as over half the roster still needs to be signed. I'm just saying that their ridiculous tactics to lure him are embarassing and won't help sway Bron's decision.

Even though he was 6-24, Kobe showed his greatness in Game 7. 15 rebounds, terrific defense, great energy, and in the 4th he did his job and helped close it out. Amazing series by him, truly vindicated himself from the 2008 series. Even though his shooting percentages were low and his TO's high, he still played terrific all-around ball and got his 29PPG without getting more than 3-4 easy looks at the rim the entire series. I've never seen anyone over the course of a series hit as many extremely tough shots as he did on such a consistent basis. Only Kobe could do what Kobe did this series.

Lakers deserved it indeed. Artest has never played a bigger game. He was unbelievable, truly gives this team the toughness, heart and defense this team has lacked the last few years. Even though that Finals MVP trophy is Kobe's, Artest deserves major props.

Lakers will shoot better in the 2nd half, Boston will rebound better. Going to come down to Kobe, he's gotta make quicker decision off the catch. This is looking too much like the 2004 Finals where Kobe bombed. I fully expect him to come thru.