Nitro

I still don't really believe that. SVG was under a lot of undeserved heat (pun completely intended) after their ECF game 7 loss to the Pistons, Riley supposedly was strongly considering coming back as coach, and once the team started to hit a rough patch in 05-06, Riley was back on the sidelines. But, be it as it may, I think it'd be a mistake to get rid of Spoelstra unless he really struggles this upcoming season,

Huh? What I made was a blanket statement, and going by average Iverson had 5 seasons of 4+ TO's compared to only two 7APG+ seasons where he didn't give the ball up 4x. You took it way too literally. In AI's entire career he only had 2 high-assist seasons where he didn't go over 4 TO's. And as I also stated in my previous post, in 7 of AI's seasons he notched more TO's than LeBron did in his career-worst. I'm not just using individual seasons like you are with AI. AI and being efficient handling the ball was an abberation. Meanwhile I know you'll flip that around and say Kobe's 4.1 TO's in 04-05 was an abberation, but he's only averaged more than 5.5APG twice in his career, and both times averaged 3.5 TO's per game or more...and yes, one of those seasons was in the Phil Jackson triangle with a chmpionship-caliber team built around him, so don't give me the 'his teammates were crap' or 'he was learning a new offense' arguements. And I can go through x's and o's with you like I did in my last post explaining why LeBron is the better playmaker, and I have throughout this topic. But really it all shows itself in the stats, which OVERWHELMINGLY favor LeBron in the playmaking area. Efficiency as an elite player should be transcedent regardless of a few differences. Both Kobe and Bron are wing players, both have been on very good and very bad teams, etc... The difference is that through the good and bad, LeBron's numbers as a playmaker have stayed steady and extremely efficient. NEVER inefficient. Kobe's numbers have remained relatively inefficient in that regard to the better passing wing-players in the league (T-Mac, Joe Johnson, and in the last few years D-Wade).

He did the same thing to SVG, and IMO it is plain wrong morally and ethically. Spoelstra is a VERY solid coach who payed his dues as an assistant to Riley, and has coached an over-achieving team two years in a row. This team is being built and growing with Spoelstra as the coach, and to keep that intact is important. Riley quit on the team twice when they went from contending to crap, and I'd hate to see him do it again, as great of a coach as he is.

Quote me where I said Iverson never had a season where he averaged 7APG and less than 4 TO's. First I said the only other players I could think of besides Kobe, at least in the last decade or so, to average over 4 TO's for a season was Wade, AI and Francis. Then I said, "In the seasons Iverson averaged 7APG he was averaging 4.5 TO's as well." I did not mean literally EVERY season, but I showed you 5 seasons of him averaging over 4 TO's per game as opposed to you showing me only 2 seasons where he averaged 7APG and less than 4 TO's. To use AI as an example of my logic being flawed is ridiculous because AI exceeded LeBron's career-high in TO's 7x, meanwhile for his career averaging only 6.2APG to LeBron's 7.0APG. First off, the fact that MJ had 3 seasons where his APG excceeded Kobe's career high (6.0APG), including his 8APG year, and his career high in TO's was only 3.6 kind of kills whatever arguement you're trying to make. In the seasons MJ averaged over 4.5APG (10 overall), he averaged 5.8APG to go with 2.9 TO's. Kobe has had 11 seasons of 4.5APG or more, averaging 5.2APG in those seasons to go with 3.1 TO's. And MJ was not the playmaker LeBron was either, so I really don't understand your point. Teams don't double LeBron as often on the perimeter because he can kill you with the pass. If you jam and trap Kobe, he doesn't have the court vision being 6'6'' to look over double teams like LeBron does, which is where a lot of his TO's come from. LeBron is just like how T-Mac was in that sense...T-Mac's assists and TO's were always marvelous for his position because he had the court vision and passing ability to make cross court passes over double teams to guys like Battier for the open 3. He has always had teammates who could knock down open shots? He was averaging over 7APG with only one player on his team hitting over 1 3PM per game, and that player shot below 35% from 3. The difference between AI and LeBron in terms of playmaking, since you can't seem to get off the AI thing, is that 1) LeBron is 6'8'' and even in the worst of jams can look over the defense and find an open shooter or slasher cross court, 2) LeBron plays off-ball extremely well, helping to set picks and help orchestrate the offense without having the ball in his hands. AI was ineffective without the basketball in his hands, 3) LeBron always has a purpose when he is making a move. AI made moves just to make moves, and his dancing would not only stagnate the offense but often cause himself TO's, and 4) LeBron's simply a more skilled passer than AI was. Much of the differences between AI and LeBron is why you can't double LeBron like you do Kobe. It's either he's going to the rim and finishing/dishing off, taking a contested jumper in an iso, or passing over the double team on the perimeter to hit the wide open player. Due to his amazing court vision and IQ to run an offense force defenses to pick their poison. Back in 06-07 or even 07-08 you could find some success with letting him take contested jumpers and cutting off driving lanes and smothering teammates. Now his jumper is good enough where he can kill you no matter which route to defend him you take.

Check the player comparisons forum in 20min and I'll reply to all of this. I won't in this thread because here I'm strictly talking about playmaking.

He was a pretty good playmaker, even in those seasons where he averaged 4+ TO's, but he was very inefficient on ALL fronts. And we are not comparing him to LeBron James, who has never had a season where he's averaged more than 3.5 TO's and is coming off a season where he averaged 8.6APG...territory only PG's come near. And why would you ask what AI I'm talking about when apparently "we all know he did that" regarding his 5 seasons where he was coughing the ball up at over 4x a game? Considering he's in what, his 13th or 14th season and has had only one season where he's eclipsed 6.0APG...in which he also averaged over 4 TO's per game...I beg to differ. And yes, turnovers are more than bad passes, but playmaking also involves more than simply the pass itself. It's the decision-making, court vision, ballhandling...LeBron doesn't do what he does simply because he is a good passer. He is amazing at orchestrating an offense, he does so as well as a PG does. He knows exactly where players will cut to or spot up from, he is as good a pick and roll passer I've ever seen, he knows where his teammates like the ball, he knows how to attract the defense and dish, he's great at it all. Kobe is a very skilled passer, but he just doesn't have all the tools of a great playmaker to make those decisions consistently over the course of a 48min game. Maybe for stretches, but not for an entire game, let alone season. And Kobe may need all those things just to eclipse 7APG...Bron was able to do that with virtually no shooters and Big Z and Drew Gooden as his 2nd and 3rd options. Now he has 3pt shooters and he's averaging nearly 9 a game. And less than 3.5 TO's.

This one: '96-'97: 7.5APG, 4.4 TO's. '00-'01: 5.5APG, 4.0 TO's '03-'04: 6.8APG, 4.4 TO's '04-'05: 7.9APG, 4.6 TO's '06-'07: 7.2APG, 4.1 TO's

I'm not slamming Kobe, but you can't argue the disparity in the stats and the fact that you can't find me another player in the last decade with a worse AST:TO ratio than Kobe had in 04-05, when he had the most responsibility he ever had as a playmaker. Not to mention even if you do excuse that fact, you're comparing him to a TRUE point-forward whose IMO as good of a passer as just about anyone in the league. In the seasons Iverson averaged 7APG he was averaging 4.5 TO's as well. And shooting a crappy percentage from the floor. Don't compare him to LeBron as a playmaker, that is a joke. Please read my posts...I said if you are going to average 4 TO's plus a game, you better not only be racking up the assists but also be getting to the rim. Players that slash slash slash are guys that are most prone to TO's. That is why Wade, Francis and AI are the only guys I can think of besides Kobe that have managed over 4 TO's per game. Francis and AI's inefficiencies KILLED their teams offensively most seasons. When Wade was high up in TO's he was also being extremely efficienct from the field because he was getting to the rim. The fact that Kobe wasn't slashing slashing slashing yet still managed over 4 TO's to go along with only 6APG and a 43% FG %....I mean, c'mon. Also, how are you going to use the fact that LeBron slashes so much AGAINST him? And how are you going to tell me that if Joe Johnson and T-Mac could put up 6APG+ with low TO's that Kobe can't do the same despite both of them being more perimeter oriented? Being primarily a jumpshooter should bolster efficiency, making the LeBron and Kobe AST:TO ratio even more alarming. And I am NOT using just the numbers to show LeBron is a better playmaker than Kobe. I said it before that LeBron's passes are crisper, he has better court vision due to his size, better tendencis as a passer because it is such a big part of his game...but all those things cannot be proven, and if I showed a highlight video showcasing those talents it would be shot down because it is just a highlight mix. Z was putting up big numbers? He was a solid 16/8 but was shooting below 47% from the field. Gooden's a solid player...but there's a reason Memphis and Orlando gave up on him in a 2-year stretch and why he's been on 8 different teams in his career. Make no mistake about they, they are no Caron Butler or Lamar Odom, and there is no question the other role players the Lakers had were more equipped to finish plays (especially from the 3pt line) than the Cavs had. And Cleveland didn't make the playoffs that season...and neither did LA. In the last 2 months of the season LeBron averaged 31/8/7 on 3% better shooting than Kobe averaged that season yet they went 11-16 in that stretch and missed the playoffs by a single game. And I can't stress this enough...that was only LeBron's second season. Kobe was a veteran by then. Oh c'mon now, if you want to bring 05-06 into it then I can say LeBron brought virtually that same 04-05 team to 48 wins and brought the defending Eastern Conference champs to 7 games in the 2nd round of the playoffs. I thought Kobe deserved MVP that year, but he was NOT a better playmaker which is really the only area I am discussing. And who there teammates are and what style of system they run...it DOESN'T MATTER. It's called making adjustments for the skae of your team, and Kobe's extremely inefficienct 04-05 campaign is inexcusable. Both he and LeBron had relatively poor teams (LeBron's even worse IMO), both had to make adjustments (LeBron being a young talent with increased responsibility and Kobe learning a new offense), and both were relied on heavily to make the proper plays for the teams. Despite being in different offenses, both had the ball the majority of the time and were expected to be the #1 scorer and playmaker of their teams. Kobe did not get the job done like he was supposed to. On purely playmaking, LeBron made a bigger impact with a higher efficiency. AI shouldn't even be in the discussion...he was inefficient as a playmaker/ballhandler the majority of his career, and an inefficient scorer the majority of his career. In no way, shape or form should he be mentioned in th same sentence as Kobe or LeBron.

As Yugo mentioned, he also averaged nearly 5APG more and shot lights out from the field. Very bad example. 04-05 was the year Kobe had the ball most in his hands and had more responsibility than ever to create for his teammates because he was playing without a triangle and then a make-shift triangle. As I said before, the reliability of their teammates that season is irrelevant because LeBron had a worse offensive supporting cast around him. You cannot find me a wing player that is elite that coughed the ball up over 4x while managing only 6APG and shooting that poorly from the field. It just won't happen. I don't know how you're going to bring up the fact that it was a brand new offense when Kobe was an 8th year NBA veteran, ignoring the fact that LeBron was a SECOND YEAR player who had the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, scored AS MUCH as Kobe yet was more efficient with the ball in terms of AST:TO and FG %. And yes, his TO numbers were better when he was put back in the triangle...when his assists went down to 4.5 a game and PPG up to 35.4.

If there's any room, I'd love to get in on this. Been writing some stuff lately so I'm itching to put my skills to the test.

See, my problem with your posts is your putting all this blame on his teammates as to why the numbers stack up the way they do...yet don't give the same consideration to LeBron. As I said in my post earlier, LeBron had a worse offensive team than Kobe did back in 2004-2005 (I don't like to use his numbers from after that because a) after 2004-2005 he became a one-man wrecking crew as a scorer, and b) the triangle offense that Phil put into place is a totally different animal and demands a much different style of play from Kobe than virtually any other style of offense). Kobe had shooters. LeBron did not. Kobe had players that allowed him to play off-ball, lessening his chances of TO's. LeBron did not. Kobe was a 9th or 10th year veteran. LeBron was a 2nd year player. I don't care what excuses you can make, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for a perimeter player to average 4 TO's with only 6APG. That is extremely poor efficiency, which really wouldn't be a problem if he was also scoring the ball with high efficiency, which he wasn't. At some point the importance of skill level diminishes when efficiency is that poor. And also, as JVG and Mark Jackson often point out during games, you have to know your teammates. Everyone knows Kwame Brown has stones for hands, as should Kobe...a bullet pass to Kwame should be out of the question. LeBron didn't exactly have the smartest or more skilled bunch earlier in his career but was smart enough with the ball to have a very high AST:TO ratio. As I said earlier as well, I don't considering playmaking purely passing. It includes decision-making, and as I've seen time and time again this year, Kobe will dribble himself into a double team and wait about 2 seconds too long to get the ball out of his hands, thus creating a TO. The game at GS about a month back pops into my mind. That is because Kobe's first reaction is always to score, and if he gets into trouble and tries to bail himself out, he's prone to causing a TO. And unlike LeBron's, he's not 6'8''-6'9'' with the ability to look over the defense and make the proper cross-court pass to an open shooter. That is a pass LeBron makes that I often see Kobe getting picked off on. Lastly, as for the Shaq comment...yes, Kobe did play with Shaq well. He fed the post better than anyone else on the team. Kobe was the team's primary facilitator. But in the triangle, the responsibilities on individual passers are far lessened because the offense moves through the post, thus not being the best showcase for overall playmaking ability. LeBron has been giving great feeds to Shaq in the post all year, giving him perfect bounce passes off the screen and roll, giving him that nice wrap around pass as well. But what LeBron has to do for his team that Kobe did not have to do is create for others in a far greater variety of ways. Constant pick and rolls, tough passes off penetration to the shooter, pin-point passes to guys like Varejao cutting to the basket...James makes plays for his teammates in virtually every offensive set there is. There are just too many passes LeBron makes on a consistent basis that more often than not would cause Kobe to cough up the ball.

My only comment... Going too far IMO. O'Neal is not a 2nd or even 3rd option player offensively anymore like he has been used the last 2 years, but the guy still has game left. He is still a solid scorer, solid rebounder and still a very good defensive player. It is hard to find good big men in this league, and if they can get him cheap I think it'd be a mistake to not keep him (assuming they get one of the key FA big men this summer to put alongside Wade).

Great game by Kobe, very efficient scoring the ball and got the job done in the 4th as usual. The Lakers do have to do a better job of not letting the Utah role players kill them in the rest of this series. You can deal with Williams, Boozer and even Millsap going off, but you can't let Miles and Mathews kill you as well. There is no excuse for this game to be a close as it was with the Lakers shooting 53% from the field.

Except for AI and Wade, I can't think of another player in the last 10 years or so that has averaged over 4 TO's per game (Edit: Steve Francis did it twice...suprise suprise...) And IMO Kobe is a top 10 player all-time and the most skilled player the game has ever seen. I am not denying his greatness or the fact that for the better part of the last decade he has been the game's best player. The issue is we are comparing him to another historic player with considerably better playmaking ability (which is the area we are discussing right now). Of course...but if you are an elite player and expected to be the primary scorer and playmaker on your team, you can't make excuses for poor efficiency. I already showed the examples of LeBron being efficient despite an EXTREMELY poor offensive team his first few NBA seasons, and as another example look at T-Mac back in 06-07 when Yao was injured for half the year. As being a VERY similar player to Kobe, T-Mac, with a very poor offensive cast around him, averaged 6.5APG with just 3 TO's. He was doubled as much as any player in the league. His 2nd option was RAFER ALSTON. And as good a playmaker as T-Mac was back when he was remotely healthy, even he is not the playmaker LeBron is.

I agree, but when you expect your star player to be the primary ballhandler/passer/scorer, you need efficiency. For players like Wade, the high TO's are fine because he's giving you 7APG and shooting a high % because he's driving to the rim all the time. For a player like Kobe, however, who does his damage outside on the perimeter, 4 TO's is unacceptable when he's only shooting 45-46% as well. That's why I call it playmaking, not strictly passing. Being a playmaker means a LOT more than just being skilled as a passer. As for the edited part of your post, look at my previous post regarding the quality of players in the 2004-2005 season we are referring to.

It's old and irrelevant? The 8.6APG with 3.3 TO's says otherwise.

In this arguement, using the talent Kobe had around him back in 2004-2005 to justify his poor numbers passing the ball is futile because look at the cast LeBron had around him in that same year (LeBron's 2nd season). Besides him, only one player on the team averaged more than 1 3PM a game (Jeff McInnis at under 35% shooting from 3...I bet most members here forgot McInnis ever even existed). Kobe had 4 other players hitting over 1 3PM, with 3 of them shooting over 38% from 3. Despite the style of some of those Lakers' role players, for Kobe to average 6APGwith a whopping 4.1 TO's per game for a player that is primarily a jumpshooter is inexcusable. You'd expect the 4 TO's to be something LeBron would average considering how much ballhandling he does and how he attacks the rim, but his highest TO number was his ROOKIE season with 3.5 per game. Since then he has averaged 7.2APG or higher 4 different years, averaging a very low 3.2 TO's. And as for Atkins handling the ball...if he was on a team with LeBron James, do you think he'd be doing anywhere near the amount of ballhandling/playmaking? The reason is because Kobe is not the playmaker LeBron is. You can't give him the ball 25ft from the basket straightaway every possession and expect him to make the correct play every time over the course of a game. His efficiency as a scorer will go down because he needs players to set the offense up and get him the ball in the mid-post position, his sweet spot. And as we've seen time and time again this year, he is TO prone when he is trying to force being a facilitator.

Bynum is a very, very large man. According to his own words he was still growing in his 2nd or 3rd season (I remember reading his blog, if I find it I'll supply the exact quote). Big men like Bynum are highly vulnerable to leg injuries, just look at Yao. If the Lakers are to go anywhere, Bynum needs to be healthy. Just look at the last 13 games of the regular season when he was out, then in contrast look at the impact he had in the series against the Thunder. The Bynum/Gasol factor is what makes the Lakers special, aside from Kobe. They could probably slip by the Jazz or even the Spurs/Suns without him, but they have NO chance of beating Cleveland or Orlando with him playing significantly injured or out completely.

Agree completely here, although... Disagree here. You can say what you want about his Drop The World and Forever verses, but neither of those songs were meant to be creative, in-depth songs with a specific story or plot. They were meant to be hit radio songs, and Eminem had by FAR and away the best verses on both of them. Look at Forever...all 4 verses were completely different and had little direction (especially Wayne's...God that was awful). As for Eminem and his battle rap style...he came up as a battle rapper, and succeeded as being one of the best battle rappers of all-time (just check out Infinite). Regarding his personal life and how he grew up, he's done all of that in song before. He's what, 35 or 36 now? Just a year ago returning after a 4-5 year hiatus. His direction and style of course is going to be different from when he first came onto the scene with a ton of innovative, creative material. Lastly, Not Afraid has a LOT of substance. Just because it's not some complex story or extremely creative (like Nas' Rewind or I Gave You Power) doesn't mean it is shallow. Coming from someone who has had issues with drugs and such, I found the song to have a lot of depth. And considering how many people have written him off, a lot of the stuff he's rapping about aside from the drugs is also interesting and has truth.

When did I say he was a better shooter than Kobe? And yes players do defend him to stop the drive, and he is doing what he is supposed to do...knocking down the 3 at a solid clip. To take away from him just because he is defended a certan way is ridiculous. And that's a BAD thing?!? Teams can't stop him off the dribble when he is going to the basket, it is very rare. And now unlike earlier in his career he can hit the midrange and 3pt shot at an efficient percentage when he does get cut off. First off, look at LeBron's stats from early in his career when the offensive talent around him was absolute CRAP...before Williams, before Jamison, before Shaq, before West, before Moon, before Parker. He was averaging 7APG+ in his SECOND season as a 6'8'' 250lbs FORWARD. And LeBron isn't a great passer? It isn't like he's simply drawing double teams and making the correct pass. The guy is an amazingly talented passer skill-wise. Every pass he makes is right on-point. He can make any kind of pass you wants; cross-court, bounce pass to the screener, behind the back pass, he can do it all. It is the single area that makes him SO special. Ok? Right now with Kobe's injuries he cannot get to the rim. He cannot get to the line. Even when he is hot with the jumper he can't shoot over 50% (like game 6 in OKC). Kobe is arguably the most skilled, talented scorer the league has ever seen, but right now LeBron is being a far more effective scorer. Even in his PRIME Kobe could never average over 8APG. He played out of the triangle one year and averaged 6APG but also notched over 4 TO's as well. He never was and never will be the playmaker LeBron is. Scoring the ball, I'd take a healthy, prime Kobe over LeBron. But Kobe is not healthy, and IMO he exited his prime a year or 2 ago. He has more moves than anyone else, can score from more places than anyone else, and he is as witty as anyone else...but he doesn't have the athleticism he had when he was scoring 35PPG or scoring 50+ in 4 straight games. And without that athleticism, his efficiency has dropped to a point where his skillset doesn't compare to LeBron's ever-improving VERY efficient offensive game.

Because he is arguably the best player the NBA has ever seen at getting to the rim and finishing. Despite being given room on the jumper, he still shot over 50% this year from the field and his 3pt % is solid. And unlike Kobe he's a much crisper, selfless paser making it even more difficult to defend. If LeBron isn't scoring big points, he's racking up 10+ assists, and even when he had a dud of a supporting cast it was much the same. As for Kobe being the greatest ever...we've gone through this enough. I will say though that Durant being a baby during MJ's true prime really affects his judgement in that regard. It's natural to look at your generation's stars in a much different, more biased light (especially when you have to play one of them head-to-head in your first ever playoff series).

Wow. Once again the Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown trade continues to pay off huge.

It isn't just Artest, especially tonight. It's an all-around team performance, the Lakers' size and length isn't giving him anything at the rim.

If it works and isn't being called by the officials, it's fair game. The winners do whatever it takes to win a ball game, and as long as it isn't being called, players should be doing it until the rules are changed (although in a professional ball-game where a jumpshot can be released in 0.4 of a second, it is a very, very difficult rule to enforce). If the jumpshooter doesn't like it? Then next time down the floor take the ball to the damn rim.

This song is unbelievable. Nas kills it, Damien does his thing and that's the best verse I've heard from Wayne in a long time. Great production and chorus. This album is gonna be AMAZING. As a huge Nas fan, I am so glad he's finally gonna have some great beats to spit over. That was my problem with all his albums since God's Son...crappy/akward production that just didn't fit his style. I know he likes to change thing up album-to-album, but I truly believe this is going to be his best work top-to-bottom since It Was Written.