[Completed] NBA's greatest shooting guard?

[Real Deal]

Be sure to bold your vote, then follow it up with an argument as to why you believe he is deserving of the vote.

[JWaLL]

Michael Jordan because he is the greatest player who ever played the game, and just happens to be a shooting guard. There is simply no argument except for the (very) few people who will probably pick Kobe.

[Poe]

Kobe Bryant. It's either him or Jordan, and I choose Kobe. Setting aside team achievement and season awards, Kobe is the better overall player. He has a wider arsenal of moves in the post and attacking the basket, a perfected jumpshot that still drops with broken fingers, and overall simply knows how to break down the defense. No matter what defense you play, whether it's manning up with a 6'8'' guy putting a big fat hand covering his eyes, zone defense with a 7'5'' center towering in the paint with a double team coming up and 2 more defenders ready to help, or even a box and 1. He will still find a way to score on you.

 

 

When comparing Jordan and Kobe, you are comparing two different eras. In Jordan's time, certain defenses weren't allowed, making things much easier for Jordan offensively in comparison to Kobe. Plus not to mention the technology and devices that allow defenders to look at every possession a certain player has played by a press of a button, and the handy statistics on player tendencies that organizations will give to their defenders to get a better chance at stopping the offense more efficiently. Not to take away Jordan's spectacular abilities, we all know he is at the very least one of the greatest of all time. But when comparing defenses to his time and ours, defenses are much superior these days, and continues to grow as the game gains popularity.

 

 

When comparing Jordan and Kobe's defensive abilities, you have to think of the times as well. As defenses grow, so do offenses, so it is very difficult to say who is clearly the supreme defender.

 

 

I'm not going to write a novel here, so I'm going to try to keep things relatively short. I'm going to end this by saying that you can't truly compare stats and numbers, since player roles and teammates affect stats (such as having Smush/Kwame on your team versus Pau/Bynum/Odom/Artest), and I personally don't believe championships are a true way to compare individual players, since they are TEAM awards. When comparing who's better, you have to look at their offensive and defensive arsenal, as well as consistency and other things like ability to perform under pressure, and see who is better that way.

[ChosenOne]

Kobe Bryant, before this year I would have said Jordan but now I have to go with Kobe.

[Guru]

MJ, for now. If Kobe wins one more ring the title is his imo.

[Real Deal]

Michael Jordan. I don't think he's a better overall player than Kobe, total offense and defense (I don't think anyone is in the history of the game), but I think that the six rings and the regular season and Finals MVP's are enough to boost him above Bryant in the rankings as a greater two-guard.

 

That could change before Kobe's career is over, but Jordan still has him if we're asking who is greater.

[The Regime]

MJ, for now. If Kobe wins one more ring the title is his imo.

 

Yup, I feel the same way. The comparison is just to close to call. Championships separates these two, and if Kobe can win a couple more I think he'll take over as the greatest shooting guard of all-time. For now I'll go with Michael Jordan, but my vote will probably change by the end of this season.

[Clutch]

feel the same way as you guys...jordan for now

[AboveLegit]

Michael Jordan, it's not even close IMO.

[Poe]

Michael Jordan. I don't think he's a better overall player than Kobe, total offense and defense (I don't think anyone is in the history of the game), but I think that the six rings and the regular season and Finals MVP's are enough to boost him above Bryant in the rankings as a greater two-guard.

 

That could change before Kobe's career is over, but Jordan still has him if we're asking who is greater.

That doesn't make sense to me. At all.

 

If Jordan never met Pippen or Jackson, he may have never gotten any of those rings, plus the other above solid players around him like Dennis Rodman and Ron Harper. Rings and championships are a team award, this isn't the PGA, and Finals MVPs are simply being the best player on that team. Regular season MVPs can also be a product of the competition around you, inflated numbers based on teammates and role (Allen Iverson for the defensive Sixers, LeBron for Cavs, etc), media bias, and also the level of your team (50+ win standard).

 

Simply put, team awards and maybe even regular season awards shouldn't factor when comparing individual players.

 

 

Maybe this will help paint the picture a bit better. Take player X and player Y, both of which are equal in talent and are both the best to ever play. Separate X and Y onto team A and team B. Team A has the best coach in the league, including a very well rounded team on both ends, while team B has a mediocre coach and a mediocre team. If player X winds up winning a few championships, but player Y doesn't win any due to a much worse team, does that make player X greater despite being equal in skill?

 

 

I dunno. Maybe it still makes sense for other people somehow, but amount of ability and level of "greatness" fall under the same line to me. Therefore, the best overall player IS the greatest player.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Michael Jordan, dont know why everyone is comparing career Jordan to PRIME Kobe, over the course of their careers Jordan has done almost everything, dude had 6 rings as 1st guy, while Kobe had 1 and 3 as 2nd guy.

[AboveLegit]

That doesn't make sense to me. At all.

 

If Jordan never met Pippen or Jackson, he may have never gotten any of those rings, plus the other above solid players around him like Dennis Rodman and Ron Harper. Rings and championships are a team award, this isn't the PGA, and Finals MVPs are simply being the best player on that team. Regular season MVPs can also be a product of the competition around you, inflated numbers based on teammates and role (Allen Iverson for the defensive Sixers, LeBron for Cavs, etc), media bias, and also the level of your team (50+ win standard).

 

Simply put, team awards and maybe even regular season awards shouldn't factor when comparing individual players.

 

 

Maybe this will help paint the picture a bit better. Take player X and player Y, both of which are equal in talent and are both the best to ever play. Separate X and Y onto team A and team B. Team A has the best coach in the league, including a very well rounded team on both ends, while team B has a mediocre coach and a mediocre team. If player X winds up winning a few championships, but player Y doesn't win any due to a much worse team, does that make player X greater despite being equal in skill?

 

 

I dunno. Maybe it still makes sense for other people somehow, but amount of ability and level of "greatness" fall under the same line to me. Therefore, the best overall player IS the greatest player.

Did you forget that MJ played in a league where hand checking was allowed and defenses had just as much freedom as offensive players do today? Jordan played in arguably the greatest era in basketball, and averaged a higher career PPG, accrued more points, and dominated the league far longer both statistically and in regards to the playoffs (6-0 in the Finals).

 

It's one thing to completely disregard what the Bulls did as a whole in the playoffs, but it's another thing to completely disregard what Jordan did in every Finals appearance.

[Poe]

Did you forget that MJ played in a league where hand checking was allowed and defenses had just as much freedom as offensive players do today? Jordan played in arguably the greatest era in basketball, and averaged a higher career PPG, accrued more points, and dominated the league far longer both statistically and in regards to the playoffs (6-0 in the Finals).

 

It's one thing to completely disregard what the Bulls did as a whole in the playoffs, but it's another thing to completely disregard what Jordan did in every Finals appearance.

Hand checking was allowed, but there's no way they had as much freedom as today. You can look up all the rules if you like http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html. There were a ton of them about help positioning, until now where you're just not allowed to stand in the paint for more than a few seconds.

 

And I'm not disregarding anything that Jordan did. If that's where you thought I was going with my argument, then you completely missed the point.

 

 

And by the way, the greatest era of basketball is now. The next era will be even greater than this one, and even greater in the one after as the popularity and number of people who play and work for the game continues to increase. As the level of competition, training, coaching, athleticism, and work ethic needed just to become a pro increases, it translates to the players and the overall game itself.

 

Take the best player of 50 years ago, like Wilt Chamberlain, and you transport his prime state to today, he might only be an average NBA center. Perhaps he'd develop if taken at a younger age due to his athleticism, but we're talking the end of his development as a player. Also, take a prime Kobe, transport him 50 years from now, if the popularity and the number of people who play the game is still high, he might be an average player then as well. That's how much better the game might be by then.

 

Anyway, I'm getting on a bit of tangent here. I'll just stop there before I start veering too far from the original topic.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Poe

[Real Deal]

That doesn't make sense to me. At all.

 

If Jordan never met Pippen or Jackson, he may have never gotten any of those rings, plus the other above solid players around him like Dennis Rodman and Ron Harper. Rings and championships are a team award, this isn't the PGA, and Finals MVPs are simply being the best player on that team. Regular season MVPs can also be a product of the competition around you, inflated numbers based on teammates and role (Allen Iverson for the defensive Sixers, LeBron for Cavs, etc), media bias, and also the level of your team (50+ win standard).

 

Simply put, team awards and maybe even regular season awards shouldn't factor when comparing individual players.

 

 

Maybe this will help paint the picture a bit better. Take player X and player Y, both of which are equal in talent and are both the best to ever play. Separate X and Y onto team A and team B. Team A has the best coach in the league, including a very well rounded team on both ends, while team B has a mediocre coach and a mediocre team. If player X winds up winning a few championships, but player Y doesn't win any due to a much worse team, does that make player X greater despite being equal in skill?

 

 

I dunno. Maybe it still makes sense for other people somehow, but amount of ability and level of "greatness" fall under the same line to me. Therefore, the best overall player IS the greatest player.

An athlete's greatness can be separated from his overall abilities.

 

If you want proof of this, pretend like Hakeem Olajuwon has six rings. Who's the greater center then, Shaq or Hakeem? Who is considered the greater center minus the storybook ending for Hakeem? Who is the better overall player?

[AboveLegit]

Hand checking was allowed, but there's no way they had as much freedom as today. You can look up all the rules if you like http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html. There were a ton of them about help positioning, until now where you're just not allowed to stand in the paint for more than a few seconds.

 

And I'm not disregarding anything that Jordan did. If that's where you thought I was going with my argument, then you completely missed the point.

 

 

And by the way, the greatest era of basketball is now. The next era will be even greater than this one, and even greater in the one after as the popularity and number of people who play and work for the game continues to increase. As the level of competition, training, coaching, athleticism, and work ethic needed just to become a pro increases, it translates to the players and the overall game itself.

 

Take the best player of 50 years ago, like Wilt Chamberlain, and you transport his prime state to today, he might only be an average NBA center. Perhaps he'd develop if taken at a younger age due to his athleticism, but where talking the end of his development as a player. Also, take a prime Kobe, transport him 50 years from now, if the popularity and the number of people who play the game is still high, he might be an average player then as well. That's how much better the game might be by then.

 

Anyway, I'm getting on a bit of tangent here. I'll just stop there before I start veering too far from the original topic.

How do you figure? Why is it that we don't see the dominant centers anymore like the league saw in the 80s and 90s? Why is it that we're seeing less and less focus on the defensive end, and are straying away from traditional basketball?

 

I fail to see any positive correlation from Jordans era to now... unless you consider flashy combo guards as one...

 

On offense Jordan has the edge, because before Scottie and Horace even got there he had a lot more responsibility for his team on offense and he managed to efficiently carry it, like what was said about his third season when he averaged over 37 ppg. The guy was shooting over 50% from the field still after his second retirement. He was just so much more efficient on offense.

 

While all that was happening, even before Scottie and Horace were there (two good to great defenders) he was still doing a great job on defense. He was still able to play just as good if not better than Kobe has played even with players to fall back on, even when he hasn't had to shoulder the load on offense, regardless of the defensive statistics, Jordan just plain flat out outplayed Kobe on defense. Even then, seeing Jordan get lit up was something very rare.

 

Also, Jordan did actually have to totally shoulder the load before Grand and Pippen got there. There's a poster or two here that seems to think that Pippen was there for Jordan's entire career when Pippen didn't come until Jordan's 4th season, and Pippen didn't even average 8 points per game that season, so the Pippen and Grant arguments that some people are using really can't be used when talking about the first 5 years of Jordan's career.

 

So Kobe shoots the three better than Jordan. So did Reggie Miller. The game is won by being able to score at the basket. Teams who get higher percentage shots win more often.

 

Jordan was better 18 feet and in and Kobe was better 18 feet and out... you win the game by being better 18 feet and in... unless you'd like to show me all the championship teams that beat superior inside scoring teams by shooting threes.

[Poe]

An athlete's greatness can be separated from his overall abilities.

 

If you want proof of this, pretend like Hakeem Olajuwon has six rings. Who's the greater center then, Shaq or Hakeem? Who is considered the greater center minus the storybook ending for Hakeem? Who is the better overall player?

I suppose most people would take Shaq over Hakeem, due to rings and Shaq's physical dominance as a center. I think I'll take Hakeem either way, though. Championships or no championships. For greatness and for ability, since they are the same thing. If I was to choose Shaq, it would be for the same reasons.

[Poe]

How do you figure? Why is it that we don't see the dominant centers anymore like the league saw in the 80s and 90s? Why is it that we're seeing less and less focus on the defensive end, and are straying away from traditional basketball?

 

I fail to see any positive correlation from Jordans era to now... unless you consider flashy combo guards as one...

 

I suppose you forgot the "defense wins championships" motto.

 

And I believe a big man's inability to dominate offensively in this era is because of the improvements on defense. Nowadays you have to have a good jumper to go along with your post game if you hope to score about 25 ppg like Dirk, but I'm not going to go too far into that. It's Kobe vs Jordan we're talking here.

 

And nice shot at Wade, btw.

 

On offense Jordan has the edge, because before Scottie and Horace even got there he had a lot more responsibility for his team on offense and he managed to efficiently carry it, like what was said about his third season when he averaged over 37 ppg. The guy was shooting over 50% from the field still after his second retirement. He was just so much more efficient on offense.

 

While all that was happening, even before Scottie and Horace were there (two good to great defenders) he was still doing a great job on defense. He was still able to play just as good if not better than Kobe has played even with players to fall back on, even when he hasn't had to shoulder the load on offense, regardless of the defensive statistics, Jordan just plain flat out outplayed Kobe on defense. Even then, seeing Jordan get lit up was something very rare.

 

Also, Jordan did actually have to totally shoulder the load before Grand and Pippen got there. There's a poster or two here that seems to think that Pippen was there for Jordan's entire career when Pippen didn't come until Jordan's 4th season, and Pippen didn't even average 8 points per game that season, so the Pippen and Grant arguments that some people are using really can't be used when talking about the first 5 years of Jordan's career.

 

That's a much better argument for saying Jordan is better than Kobe when speaking for individual abilities, but that actually helps mine even more about how championships are a team goal. What if Jordan never got Pippen or Grant, and had to carry his team the way he did throughout his entire career? I don't see any championships in those first 4 years.

 

So Kobe shoots the three better than Jordan. So did Reggie Miller. The game is won by being able to score at the basket. Teams who get higher percentage shots win more often.

 

Jordan was better 18 feet and in and Kobe was better 18 feet and out... you win the game by being better 18 feet and in... unless you'd like to show me all the championship teams that beat superior inside scoring teams by shooting threes.

Three-shooting is part of scoring ability. You need both an inside game and an outside game to be a complete scorer. Though Jordan could be better with inside scoring (though it may have also been easier to attack the basket in his era because restricted help defense), I just feel Kobe is superior when combining both inside and outside abilities.

[AboveLegit]

I suppose you forgot the "defense wins championships" motto.

 

And I believe a big man's inability to dominate offensively in this era is because of the improvements on defense. Nowadays you have to have a good jumper to go along with your post game if you hope to score about 25 ppg like Dirk, but I'm not going to go too far into that. It's Kobe vs Jordan we're talking here.

 

And nice shot at Wade, btw.

How many good post defenders are there now in this league? Please, think more objectively here, there might be a few players that I'd consider above average on defense right now, and no, that's not embellishing.

 

That's a much better argument for saying Jordan is better than Kobe when speaking for individual abilities, but that actually helps mine even more about how championships are a team goal. What if Jordan never got Pippen or Grant, and had to carry his team the way he did throughout his entire career? I don't see any championships in those first 4 years.

Ok, so if championships do not suffice for you, what does? So far, most of us have established the fact that Jordan is a better all around player, better leader, uses his intangibles more effectively, and currently has better statistics in almost every statistical category.

 

I don't see any argument favoring Kobe, I'm sorry.

 

Three-shooting is part of scoring ability. You need both an inside game and an outside game to be a complete scorer. Though Jordan could be better with inside scoring (though it may have also been easier to attack the basket in his era because restricted help defense), I just feel Kobe is superior when combining both inside and outside abilities.

 

If you look at their two most comparable season, Bryant's 2005-06 season where he scored 35.4 points per game over 80 games and Jordan's 1987-88 season where he scored 35 points per game over 82 games, there are some noticable differences. First thing to jump out is their field goal percentage, Bryant shot 45% for the entire season while Jordan shot 53.5%, that's 8.5 percent better. That season, he took three more shots per game than Jordan and made about one less. This is also with the three point shot being used fairly librally by Bryant, who attempted 518 three point shots to Jordan's 53. So while Jordan's three point percentage might be a good bit lower than Bryant's, he attempted over 465 more three pointers than Jordan did and only made 173 more than him. Bryant also attempted 173 more shots than Jordan did the entire season and made 91 less than Jordan. Bryant's a great volume scorer but he's not exaclty an efficient scorer, whereas Jordan was probably one of the more efficient scorers of all time. Being a great offensive player isn't necessarily how many points you put up, but how you put up those points. Jordan knew his limitations and went with what worked, Bryant on the other tries to do a little too much most of the time.

 

Jordan's was a much better penetrator and much better slasher, although Kobe is a very good slasher himself, Jordan was just that good at it. Also, later in his career, Jordan became a very good jump shooter. After that first retirement a lot more of his scoring came from jumpers, a lot of those fadeaways. He had the first really good fadeaway that I remember even seeing (note, not saying in any way that he was the first player to have a really good fadeaway, just the first I noticed). He was good enough that he was able to adapt to that game where he was shooting almost all jumpers and still shot around 50% from the field, which is beyond impressive. Kobe's clearly the best offensive player today, and the most versatile, I won't deny that (although if you give Kevin Garnett a 3 point shot he could be more versatile), but Jordan was a lot more versatile on offense than he's being given credit for in this thread.

 

Kobe v. Tayshaun Prince in the 04 Finals... in a situation where he went up against a defense that was probably closest to the 90 Pistons, Bryant shot 38% against a first year starter, and it was thought that Bryant's number of shots despite his low FG% was a key factor to taking LA from being in danger of losing that series closely, to a surefire loss.

 

How can you say Kobe would do X to Dumars and Rodman when he can't even do it to Tayshaun Prince?

[Real Deal]

For the record, you had to have missed the Finals if you think Prince defended Kobe that way. Hamilton and Prince both were on Bryant, every second he touched the ball 20+ feet from the rim. It left Devean George open, which was the main reason they did it.

 

They also doubled him just to DENY him the ball, which is something I've never seen in the middle of quarters before. Maybe at the end of games, but never, ever with six minutes to go in the first or second quarter.

[MainEv3nt]

That doesn't make sense to me. At all.

 

If Jordan never met Pippen or Jackson, he may have never gotten any of those rings, plus the other above solid players around him like Dennis Rodman and Ron Harper. Rings and championships are a team award, this isn't the PGA, and Finals MVPs are simply being the best player on that team. Regular season MVPs can also be a product of the competition around you, inflated numbers based on teammates and role (Allen Iverson for the defensive Sixers, LeBron for Cavs, etc), media bias, and also the level of your team (50+ win standard).

 

what if kobe never teamed with shaq an phil jackson, what if kobe stayed a hornet and never even became a laker, what if kobe never gotten pau gasol.

[Poe]

what if kobe never teamed with shaq an phil jackson, what if kobe stayed a hornet and never even became a laker, what if kobe never gotten pau gasol.

Umm... Exactly?

[deestillballin]

Michael Jordan because he is the greatest player who ever played the game, and just happens to be a shooting guard. There is simply no argument except for the (very) few people who will probably pick Kobe.

 

 

this.

 

plus 6 rings, 6 finals mvps. multiple all star selections, multiple all nba selections, he is the Tim Duncan of shooting guards, the best player of all time in this position

[Newman]

this.

 

plus 6 rings, 6 finals mvps. multiple all star selections, multiple all nba selections, he is the Tim Duncan of shooting guards, the best player of all time in this position

 

Exactly what I was thinking. His career achievements, along with his clutch moments, will forever be in the memories of every NBA fan who witnessed him in his prime.

[HornyWetPenguin]

MJ or Kobe...

 

but...

 

MJ.

[Real Deal]

Jordan takes it.