Teams With A Worse Future Than Toronto?

[Built Ford Tough]

Which teams, if any, have a worse future than the Toronto Raptors?

 

The Raptors have a very realistic chance of losing Chris Bosh in the summer which would leave them with a pitiful core of Bargnani/Turkoglu/Calderon/Jack. Not only is that a terrible core considering none of them are anything more than average players (at best)for their respective positions, but they would have a total of $31.66M (add in Reggie Evans and Marcus Banks salaries and you have 41.492M) tied up to the four of them next season, and that number would be doing nothing but increasing over the next 3 years. They would be one of the worst teams in the NBA which should lead to the Raptors getting some quality young players, but their hands would be tied financially which would limit their ability to make any other moves.

 

They are going to be the worse team in the playoffs this season, which means that they will be giving away the 15th pick in the draft this season, so they won't be able to add a cheap asset that way. They only have the MLE and LLE to use this summer as well.

 

Even if the Raptors re-sign Bosh in the summer they are going to be a fringe playoff team (unless DeRozan turns into a bonafide 2nd option on the wing, which I wouldn't count on) with around $50M invested into 5 players. They would need a major shakeup to become contenders for a top 4 seed in the East, let alone contenders for an NBA Championship.

 

It really is a shame that the Raptors future looks so terrible when you consider 4 years ago they were sitting with Chris Bosh, the 1st overall pick in the 2006 Draft and a significant amount of cap space.

 

I'm a pessimistic fan by nature (can you blame me considering my two favourite sports teams are the Toronto Raptors and Toronto Maple Leafs?), and with the way that the Raptors have spiraled down the standings since the All-Star break my pessimism has only gotten worse, but I think this is a pretty valid question.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Built Ford Tough

[kingfish]

Thats just their fault because of their horrible drafting. I think they need new scouts or a GM or something.

[BasX]

I'm fine with DeRozan. Kid is what 20, and was known to be a project. Weems has also been a nice surprise, along with Amir. Air is a FA so we'll see. The Jose and Hedo contracts kill us, but this is not the main issue. The one issue is, we won't win anything in the playoffs, so missing it is beneficial so we can get a better pick. However, that likely means no Chris Bosh. This will be an interesting off-season to say the least.

[JWaLL]

I don't see the Wizards turning themselves around for at least half a decade from now, so their future is just as bad or worse than the Raptors.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Bulletproof

[Built Ford Tough]

I don't see the Wizards turning themselves around for at least half a decade from now, so their future is just as bad or worse than the Raptors.

 

The Wizards don't have $40M tied into 3 no-defense, offensive oriented players in Bargnani, Turkoglu and Calderon (and Turkoglu, and Calderon to a lesser extent, bring next to nothing offensviely anymore either), 2 scrubs in Banks and Evans and an average/slightly above average point guard in Jack. They have enough cap room to offer a max contract this summer, I believe (correct me if I am wrong). I'm not saying that they are going to be signing a max free agent or anything, but it is never a bad thing to have cap flexibility.

 

They also are going to likely get a top 5 pick in this years draft, which has some very promising prospects like Wall, Turner, Cousins, Johnson, Monroe, Favours etc... in it while the Raptors traded away their first round pick this season (looking to be a lock for the 15th pick) in order to be able to sign Turkoglu.

 

The saddest thing is that the Raptors are just going to be finally getting out of the Bargnani/Turkoglu/Calderon/Jack contracts in 5 years.

 

I agree with you that the future doesn't look to promising for the Wizards, but I definitely think that they are in a better position than the Raptors. I'd rather suck for 4-5 years while stockpiling on young talent like the Thunder or Blazers did than be a bottom tier, first round exit/fringe playoff team like the Raptors would be (assuming they re-sign Bosh).

[BasX]

Simple Terms. Should BC be fired?

Edited March 27, 2010 by BasX

[Poe]

Who has a worse future than the Raptors? Well, that depends. It depends on the moves the Raptors can make this offseason from signing or trading players, and the development of their youth (DeRozan, Bargnani, Amir, Weems).

 

It also depends on how other teams fair off during the offseason. It depends on how successful teams like the Knicks, Nets, and Heat are during the offseason. The worst-case scenario for all of these teams is far worse than the Raptors losing Bosh, since they have almost their entire roster capable of walking off to another team, though the Nets would still have Harris and Lopez plus a potential 1st pick, and the Heat would still have Beasley.

 

Teams that are aging like the Celtics and the Spurs that don't have much youth to replace their old stars could also have difficult futures.

 

Teams that don't seem to have much of a clue where they are going with their franchise may have problems, like the T'Wolves, Wizards, Sixers, and Pistons.. unless they are fortunate enough to draft a true franchise player.

 

 

 

Really, as bad as things seem in Toronto, there could be worse. On a brighter note, only half the league gets in the playoffs each year, and at least the Raptors are in that upper half this year.

 

For this summer, who knows. Being that the worst-case scenerio happens that Bosh leaves, if the Raptors are able to get their hands on a center that can bring much-need interior defense, it's possible that they could make another playoff push.

 

I think Tyson Chandler is a free agent this summer. If the Raptors can grab him for cheap enough, that makes their line up: Jack - DeRozan - Turkoglu - Bargnani - Chandler. That's not bad at all. Develop DeRozan and Bargnani into true first and second options, maximize Turkoglu's abilities as a playmaker, trade Calderon for a more versatile sixth man, and the Raptors could make it.

[Legacy]

I see the Pistons having a worse future than Toronto.

[Built Ford Tough]

When responding to longer posts I like to seperate them into mutliple different quotes as I find it easier to respond and clearer for others to understand, so that is why in my response each different point of yours is put into their own quote.

 

Who has a worse future than the Raptors? Well, that depends. It depends on the moves the Raptors can make this offseason from signing or trading players, and the development of their youth (DeRozan, Bargnani, Amir, Weems).

 

In regards to the Raptors youth, the only player out of those 4 that you listed who actually looks to have the potential to be more than an average player is DeMar DeRozan, and that is far from a given as well. He has shown signs of being a solid player this season but he has a lot of holes in his game that he needs to work out. He is only 20 and is a rookie so obviously I still have faith in him.

 

Other than him though, I don't really think that the Raptors "youth" is going to get much better. They are still relatively young, but other than Weems, they have all been in the league for at least 4 years which is enough of a time to give you a pretty indication of what to expect from them for the future.

 

From watching Bargnani over the last 4 years I don't think that he has the heart, determination, drive or whatever you want to call it to actually become an impact player. He is a very gifted player as his combination of size, shooting touch and athleticism is very rare but considering the fact that he has been in the league for 4 years now and that is usually around the time when a big man reaches his developmental peak (at least in most cases in my opinion) and he has shown that he is going to be a 18-19 ppg/6-7 rpg big man. Obviously those aren't bad numbers scoring wise, but having a center only grabbing 7 boards a game while playing inconsistent man-to-man defense and terrible help defense is just a recipe for disaster as far as I am concerned. In my mind, Bargnani is a 6th man on a legit contending team and nothing more than that.

 

Johnson is what he is and that is a hustle/energy guy who will provide you with some rebounding, defense and a bit of offense mixed in every now and then. He doesn't really have any untapped offensive potential, at least from what I have seen, and I honestly don't think that he will get much better than he is, which isn't a knock on Johnson because he is a good player off of the bench and one of the few players on this team that plays with a backbone. These kinds of players are always going to have jobs in the NBA and no team is going to be successful without one, but then again, its not like these kinds of players are hard to find. Guys like Amir Johnson, while valuable to a team, are a dime a dozen kinds of players.

 

Sonny Weems is hard to really judge though, so I will just simply say that I can see him becoming a solid player in the future good for 10 points a night while playing solid defense, but I can also see him being another Joey Graham, which all Raptor fans know isn't exactly a compliment.

 

As for potential moves that the Raptors can make, I'm not even going to comment on that because if there is one thing that Bryan Colangelo is good at doing, it is making unexpected moves. However, the only problem is that Colangelo's ideology when building a team hasn't really accomplished anything. Sure the Raptors won the Atlantic Division his first season here, but that was more due to the East being absolutely pathetic than anything else. Outside of that the Raptors have been basically the exact same type of team (fringe playoff teams) just with different faces on it.

 

While I do have faith that Colangelo will be able to make some moves, I don't have very much faith that the moves he will make will be the right ones.

 

It also depends on how other teams fair off during the offseason. It depends on how successful teams like the Knicks, Nets, and Heat are during the offseason. The worst-case scenario for all of these teams is far worse than the Raptors losing Bosh, since they have almost their entire roster capable of walking off to another team, though the Nets would still have Harris and Lopez plus a potential 1st pick, and the Heat would still have Beasley.

 

But the thing is even if these teams strike out in free agency and don't do anything of significance, they are all still aren't in a terrible position in my opinion. Maybe the Knicks would be considering the moves that they have made that have involved draft picks, but worst case scenario for the Heat and Nets is them being two of the worst teams in the NBA. I honestly don't think that is a bad position to be in. Sucking for 4 years while stockpiling young assets is hardly something that should be looked down upon, at least in my opinion.

 

All would have cap flexibility and high draft picks while the Raptors would have $40M+ tied into a mediocore core that wouldn't be bad enough to land a top 3 pick, but wouldn't be nearly good enough to do anything of note either. In my opinion, the worst position to be in in professional sports is that of a fringe playoff team who either makes the playoffs and gets swept in the first round or just barely misses the playoffs each year which results in lesser draft picks. That is where I would see the Raptors if they resign Bosh.

 

If they lose Bosh then maybe this situation would change as they would probably be bad enough to land a top 3-5 pick.

 

Teams that are aging like the Celtics and the Spurs that don't have much youth to replace their old stars could also have difficult futures.

 

Would their futures really be any worse than the Raptors though? Once all of their aging stars retire they will have cap flexibility and will most likely be bottom tier teams which would result in them having a higher chance of landing a franchise player through the draft, which is where you build a contender.

 

Teams that don't seem to have much of a clue where they are going with their franchise may have problems, like the T'Wolves, Wizards, Sixers, and Pistons.. unless they are fortunate enough to draft a true franchise player.

 

The Pistons I agree with. They were the first team that popped into my mind when making this thread. They have terrible contracts in Gordon, Hamilton, Prince and Villanueva and their supposed "franchise player", Rodney Stuckey, is hardly anything to get excited about. I don't like the direction that franchise is headed at all.

 

The Sixers are another team that you could argue, but on the other hand, they could land a top 5 pick this season which could result in them getting a young stud which would go along way for them. Say they land Evan Turner or DeMarcus Cousins in the draft, I think that a core of Iguodala/Turner (or Cousins)/Holiday isn't all that terrible. Then again, their cap situation isn't exactly ideal which is a cause for concern.

 

Minnesota has a solid future, at least if they don't screw it up (like they usually do). They have Kevin Love and Jonny Flynn on the team already while having somebody like Rubio in a couple of years. They are going to likely land a top 3 pick this year which could easily end up being number one. Add somebody like John Wall (who makes the point guards on the team expendable) or Evan Turner and I think that they have a solid core heading forward. They also have Al Jefferson who they could move and gain something valuable back, as I am sure there are GMs around the league who value him fairly highly.

 

I already talked about the Wizards above so I won't discuss them any more.

 

With all of that said though, couldn't you say that the Raptors fall into this catagory of franchises who don't really have a direction? They don't really seem to have much of a plan either.

 

Really, as bad as things seem in Toronto, there could be worse. On a brighter note, only half the league gets in the playoffs each year, and at least the Raptors are in that upper half this year.

 

See, this is where our view points are drastically different. I think that the absolute worst position to be in in professional sports is currently where the Raptors are, which is a fringe playoff team without very much young talent and little to no cap flexibility. Making the playoffs is nice and all, but honestly, in the long run is making the playoffs and playing 4 extra games (5 at best for Toronto) any better than being a bottom 5 team and landing a legitimate building block in the draft?

 

The answer to that question is ultimately the base of this entire discussion. You're either on one side of the other as I don't really see any middle ground here.

 

For this summer, who knows. Being that the worst-case scenerio happens that Bosh leaves, if the Raptors are able to get their hands on a center that can bring much-need interior defense, it's possible that they could make another playoff push.

 

Honestly, unless Colangelo can pull a rabbit out of a hat and lands an All-Star caliber wing, or DeRozan develops into one, I'm at the point where I don't even know if losing Bosh is the worst-case scenario for the Raptors. Would they really be better off giving Bosh a max contract and comittng to a core of Bosh/Bargnani/Turkoglu/Calderon/Jack for the next 4 years? Considering the fact that we basically know what each player is going to give you night in and night out, and that has done nothing but lead the Raptors to a bottom seed playoff team, is it really worst-case scenario if Bosh leaves, assuming no changes are made to the core of the team?

 

And again, it goes back to what side of the spectrum you fall in. Do you think that making the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed and getting eliminated in the 1st round is a good thing, or do you think it is the worst position to be in?

 

I think Tyson Chandler is a free agent this summer. If the Raptors can grab him for cheap enough, that makes their line up: Jack - DeRozan - Turkoglu - Bargnani - Chandler. That's not bad at all. Develop DeRozan and Bargnani into true first and second options, maximize Turkoglu's abilities as a playmaker, trade Calderon for a more versatile sixth man, and the Raptors could make it.

 

Unless I am mistaken, Chandler is a free agent next season.

 

Even if he was and the Raptors signed him for the MLE, I don't think that your scenario here is really all that appealing. Even if Bargnani puts it all together and develops into a bonafide first option and same with DeRozan as a 2nd option, this hypothetical team has basically all of the same flaws that the current Raptors team. Chandler is a good defender but he wouldn't be able to make up for the ineptitude of Bargnani and Turkoglu defensively, and even if he could, Chandler is completely unreliable taking his injury history into consideration.

 

Best case scenario is this team being in the same position that the current Raptors team is, which is a fringe playoff team. I think that is pretty bad.

 

Its actually pretty sad that we are even having this discussion considering 4 years ago the Raptors were looking to be in great shape. They had a 22/10 All-Star power forward in Chris Bosh, the first overall pick in the 2006 NBA Draft, great cap flexibility and the excitement of having a GM like Bryan Colangelo coming to the team. Just goes to show how difficult it is to actually maximize your assets and build a team in pro sports.

[Flash]

Jeez, Riles really did a number on you guys with that Marion/JO deal getting us that first rounder. You guys better get your [expletive] together and keep that 8th seed.

 

I'd say the Pistons and Knicks have worse futures because I think NY strikes out this summer.

[BasX]

Jeez, Riles really did a number on you guys with that Marion/JO deal getting us that first rounder. You guys better get your [expletive] together and keep that 8th seed.

 

I'd say the Pistons and Knicks have worse futures because I think NY strikes out this summer.

You realize if we miss the playoffs, we get the pick back. If anything, we want to miss the playoffs.

[Flash]

You realize if we miss the playoffs, we get the pick back. If anything, we want to miss the playoffs.

 

Which is why I said get your [expletive] together and keep that 8th seed.

[BasX]

Which is why I said get your [expletive] together and keep that 8th seed.

No. I hope we don't. We better not.

[Poe]

When responding to longer posts I like to seperate them into mutliple different quotes as I find it easier to respond and clearer for others to understand, so that is why in my response each different point of yours is put into their own quote.

 

Separation FTW!

 

In regards to the Raptors youth, the only player out of those 4 that you listed who actually looks to have the potential to be more than an average player is DeMar DeRozan, and that is far from a given as well. He has shown signs of being a solid player this season but he has a lot of holes in his game that he needs to work out. He is only 20 and is a rookie so obviously I still have faith in him.

 

Other than him though, I don't really think that the Raptors "youth" is going to get much better. They are still relatively young, but other than Weems, they have all been in the league for at least 4 years which is enough of a time to give you a pretty indication of what to expect from them for the future.

 

- Like you said, DeRozan still has hope to become a big time asset. For his rookie year, per 36 minutes he's averaging 14 points and 5 boards, and considering the fact that he's the 5th option behind Bosh, Bargs, Turk, and Calderon, and maybe even Jack, he's doing more than a solid job. Also consider the fact that he's shooting a very solid 48%, and has yet to develop the 3 ball. Looking at his game-log, he appears to improve with each month. Once he puts the pieces together, you may have your next all star wing player right there in front of you.

 

- Bargnani was a first pick and can still potentially develop into a first option-type player, definitely much more than an 'average' player. He's still relatively young, and considering his length, athleticism, and shooting ability, his ceiling is still high. Unfortunately, achievement and potential are two different things. It all depends on his commitment. His rebounding numbers are very low in comparison to the minutes he plays and his positioning, and his defense is widely known to be among the worst in the NBA. Whether it's from lack of desire or ability, I'm not sure. If Bargs ever develops the work ethic to correct these weaknesses, he may become a 24 and 8 type of player as a first option. The fact that the potential is still there should leave some hope left on this team.

 

- Sonny and Amir won't become all stars, I think we all understood that from the beginning, but they can at least become solid back ups as pieces to create a deeper bench. Two guys that will bring energy and hustle, while having a decent enough skill set on the offensive end to hold their own. It's important to have a good bench to bring a spark as the starters begin to tire, and to keep minutes strong for all 48. Just look at the Bucks who managed to develop bench players like Ilyasova, Bell, and Ridnour. These guys have been a huge piece to the Bucks' success this year.

 

 

Sucking for 4 years while stockpiling young assets is hardly something that should be looked down upon, at least in my opinion.

 

Maybe from the perspective of an organization, I could see what you are saying. As a fan, I couldn't disagree more. 4 years is a long time. Heck, if the Heat were to do that, they won't be any good until I'm 22! I already had to deal with 1 year for a tank job (occasionally the starting line up got as bad as Quinn - Cook - Davis - Barron - Blount... it hurts just thinking about it, lol). I don't think I could deal with 4 straight years of that.

 

From an organization's standpoint, it depends how you handle it, and what players you manage to grab. Really, the results can range anywhere from the Thunder, who have great pieces to make a playoff run for years, to the Clippers, who make strong draft choices but haven't made much noise with them.

 

I think the best option is in between. A solid mix of veterans and young prospects. A good core with youth to eventually take their place. Kind of like what the Raptors have, actually.

 

 

If they lose Bosh then maybe this situation would change as they would probably be bad enough to land a top 3-5 pick.

 

I don't understand this at all, honestly.

 

First of all, Bosh is an established star. He's got a tremendous skill-set, a great work-ethic, and on top of that, he flat out wants to win. A 24 and 11 by average big man who is arguably the 2nd best power forward in the league right behind Dirk Nowitzki.

 

Second of all, the idea to intentionally rid the team of Bosh for the goal of a high draft pick is a huge risk. Your envisioned plan sounds like something along the lines of letting Bosh walk, tank the following year, and hope to land a big time draft pick to be your franchise player. What if this pick turns out to be a bust, or a player with less potential than Bosh's current value? Remember, Bargnani is a first pick, and who's better, him or Bosh?

 

Third, it sounds like you are looking to get rid of a franchise player for a potential franchise player. Are you saying that Bosh, the 2nd best PF in the league, isn't fit to be your franchise guy in the first place?

 

Last, there are other ways to tank than by getting rid of your best player. The Heat managed to do it, I'm sure the Raptors could if they wanted as well. Even then, tanking doesn't actually seem like the best option to me to begin with.

 

 

With all of that said though, couldn't you say that the Raptors fall into this catagory of franchises who don't really have a direction? They don't really seem to have much of a plan either.

 

Like I said above, the Raptors actually have a core. Bosh, Calderon, Turkoglu, and Jack are their vets and Bargnani, DeRozan, Weems, and Johnson is their youth. Sure, you can say the glass is half empty and look at all the holes in the line up, but with good coaching to maximize all these players abilities, it could turn into something successful.

 

Making the playoffs is nice and all, but honestly, in the long run is making the playoffs and playing 4 extra games (5 at best for Toronto) any better than being a bottom 5 team and landing a legitimate building block in the draft?

It completely depends on what the shape of your team is. If your team lacks a franchise player or a good core of players to build around, looking for a high draft pick would be the best option... if the team even has a choice, since they probably wouldn't be good enough to win too many games anyway.

 

I think if a team is good enough to make the playoffs, you go for it. Putting a team in playoff position gives a team a base to improve on heading into the next year. It not only builds chemistry and confidence within the team, but it also helps create an identity, and as the players start to understand it, that in itself can help eventually create a contender as pieces are brought in year by year.

 

 

Just look at the Hawks, for example. Year by year they've been a borderline playoff team. As they improved their youth (Williams, Smith, Horford), and mixed them with their veterans (Bibby, Johnson, Evans), and brought in a piece or two after each year (Crawford, Joe Smith). Over time, they built confidence as their playoff success grew. They developed an identity, strengthened it through each passing year, and gradually turned from a borderline playoff team into what's looking like a 50+ win team this year. Next year, if Joe Johnson stays, they may even become championship contenders, if they aren't already right now.

 

Honestly, unless Colangelo can pull a rabbit out of a hat and lands an All-Star caliber wing, or DeRozan develops into one, I'm at the point where I don't even know if losing Bosh is the worst-case scenario for the Raptors. Would they really be better off giving Bosh a max contract and comittng to a core of Bosh/Bargnani/Turkoglu/Calderon/Jack for the next 4 years? Considering the fact that we basically know what each player is going to give you night in and night out, and that has done nothing but lead the Raptors to a bottom seed playoff team, is it really worst-case scenario if Bosh leaves, assuming no changes are made to the core of the team?

 

And again, it goes back to what side of the spectrum you fall in. Do you think that making the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed and getting eliminated in the 1st round is a good thing, or do you think it is the worst position to be in?

 

It's best to fight for the highest position possible every year and develop an identity than to blow up the team whenever it doesn't have the utmost success.

 

 

As bad as things seem right now with the way the Raptors have played recently, the core isn't as bad as you make it seem, at least in my opinion.

 

What they have:

 

- If resigned, the Raptors have the second best power forward in the league in Chris Bosh, and simply a tremendous all around player. A guy you can't ask much more of for his position.

- One of the best offensive point guards in the league in Jose Calderon. A great shooter, passer, and all around decision maker on offense. His defense leaves much to be desired, though from what I've seen, he appears to give some effort.

- One of the best back up guards in the league in Jarret Jack who could probably start for many other teams. Though he's a couple steps behind Calderon in terms of passing and shooting, he's a better slasher and defender.

- A point-forward in Hedo Turkoglu that can create mismatches due to his size, ability to drive and shoot, and overall playmaking ability. He lacks defense, but if utilized properly on offense, his capabilities on that end would make up for it.

- A talented center in Andrea Bargnani who creates mismatches due to his athleticism and shooting ability. If he put more desire and energy into his defense, or possibly better coached if that is actually the real issue, he would be ideal as a franchise C.

- DeMar DeRozan, who is a promising athletic young wing with a decent skillset and seems to be improving over time. He has potential all star capabilities, and is also one of the better defensive players on the team who could eventually become relied to guard the best opposing perimeter player.

- A back up defensive big in Reggie Evens, who is widely known to be underrated among NBA players due to the intangibles he brings.

- A young wing and young power forward that can develop into solid back ups. Sonny Weems is a slasher and decent defender, and Amir Johnson rebounds well and brings energy defensively.

 

There are plenty of holes in it, of course, which is obviously why they aren't contenders thus far, but those can be fixed over time. For now, you have to embrace what you have and maximize the talent that you commit to.

 

Turkoglu is obviously a big question mark, and can either be a long-term problem, or a positive asset if he gave more commitment and the organization put more commitment into making the most out of Turk's abilities.

 

As for the rest of the guys, they really aren't bad pieces at all. Really, they are one of the best offensive teams in the league as-is, and maybe with the right tweaks this summer and the next, they could eventually become contenders. First thing is first, though. It is imperative to keep Bosh.

 

Unless I am mistaken, Chandler is a free agent next season.

 

My mistake. Scratch the idea.

[Built Ford Tough]

I'll ignore your first point about DeRozan simply because I completely agree with it. He has the potential to become an 18-5-5 (assuming he improves his handles as his ability to slash would open up opportunities for others around him) type of player, similar to Andre Iguodala. It is way too early to tell with him though. He is a gym rat from everything that I have heard/read and you can see the improvements in his game from the beginning of the season until now so I do have faith that he will become a good player in the future.

 

Also, I won't respond to the comments about Weems or Johnson because, once again, we agree on what they will become as we both basically said the same thing. Solid depth guys are their ceilings, which is necessary on any team in order to be successfull.

 

- Bargnani was a first pick and can still potentially develop into a first option-type player, definitely much more than an 'average' player. He's still relatively young, and considering his length, athleticism, and shooting ability, his ceiling is still high. Unfortunately, achievement and potential are two different things. It all depends on his commitment. His rebounding numbers are very low in comparison to the minutes he plays and his positioning, and his defense is widely known to be among the worst in the NBA. Whether it's from lack of desire or ability, I'm not sure. If Bargs ever develops the work ethic to correct these weaknesses, he may become a 24 and 8 type of player as a first option. The fact that the potential is still there should leave some hope left on this team.

 

Bargnani isn't really what I would consider to be young as a basketball player. Yeah he is only 25 (or maybe 24? I can't remember exactly) but when you consider the fact that he has been in the NBA for 4 years now while also playing professional basketball over in Italy for another 3 years before he came over to the NBA, I don't really think that it is realistic to expect much more from him thatn when he has shown so far. If he hasn't become a competent rebounder in 7 years of playing pro basketball I don't think that he will ever become one. If he still had the tendancy to start the game on the inside and gradually fade further and further away from the hoop as the game progresses, I don't think that will change either.

 

Also, Bargnani has openly admitted that he is lazy when it comes to rebounding and defense, which shows that he doesn't exactly have a great work ethic. There is no denying that the man is a very talented player and possess a unique combination of size, shooting ability and athleticism, but that doesn't really mean much when you have a poor work ethic to go with it. Derrick Coleman had all of these natural tools as well but he didn't have the work ethic to turn them into anything special which eventually led to him having some great seasons in the first 5 years of his career, but eventually into a 16-6 kind of player after that.

 

I would be absolutely shocked if Bargnani ever averaged anything close to 24 points a game. If he was on a poor team where he was force fed the basketball, I still think that he would only ever manage to score around 21-22 ppg and that would be on pretty lousy percentages. Bargnani needs a big man down low who draws attention away from him on the perimeter in order to be at his absolute best.

 

Maybe average was a bit of an understatment, but he wouldn't be any better than above average and I still stand by what I said in regards to him being a bench player on a legit contending team, unless he is paired with a big man like Tim Duncan who can dominate offensively while being able to anchor a team defensively.

 

Maybe from the perspective of an organization, I could see what you are saying. As a fan, I couldn't disagree more. 4 years is a long time. Heck, if the Heat were to do that, they won't be any good until I'm 22! I already had to deal with 1 year for a tank job (occasionally the starting line up got as bad as Quinn - Cook - Davis - Barron - Blount... it hurts just thinking about it, lol). I don't think I could deal with 4 straight years of that.

 

If those 4 years of crappiness led to the Raptors winning an NBA Championship, then I could easily deal with it.

 

I am just used to the mediocrity though. The Raptors have made it out of the 1st round one time in their franchise's history, and have had a combined 5 playoff berths (which isn't too bad considering they are currently in their 15th season). The Vancouver Grizzlies didn't even come close to sniffing the playoffs when they were in the league and my favourite NHL team, the Toronto Maple Leafs, haven't made the playoffs since the 2003-2004 season.

 

When you aren't a fan of teams like the Lakers you have to realize that you need to take the good with the bad and your window for winning a championship is slim. If sucking for 4 years is what ultimately leads to your favourite team winning that championship then so be it. At least, that is the way I look at it. The last 4 years for Seattle/Oklahoma City would've been hard to deal with, but the reward is being able to watch a team who looks like they could be contenders for the next decade. It is well worth it as far as I am concerned.

 

From an organization's standpoint, it depends how you handle it, and what players you manage to grab. Really, the results can range anywhere from the Thunder, who have great pieces to make a playoff run for years, to the Clippers, who make strong draft choices but haven't made much noise with them.

 

The Clippers struggles can be more attributed to the fact that they had a terrible owner who would rather save money then put out a winning team in my opinion. Yeah they have made some poor draft choices in the past, but the thing that has held them back is Sterling not willing to break the bank, and when he does break the bank he overpays players like Baron Davis.

 

Their future looks pretty good though if you ask me. A core of Blake Griffin - Eric Gordon - Chris Kaman - 2010 Lottery Pick while having substantial cap space in this years free agent class is definitely something to look forward to.

 

It all depends on how patient you are willing to be with the team that you follow though. I've never really experienced success as a sports fan (unless you consider my hometown Junior A. hockey team win a National Championship last year and Italy winning the World Cup in 06) so that could factor into my feelings as well. Tasting success could easily change my opinion and make me become less patient.

 

I think the best option is in between. A solid mix of veterans and young prospects. A good core with youth to eventually take their place. Kind of like what the Raptors have, actually.

 

The Raptors don't have a good core with a good mix of youth to eventually take their place though. Its not like Amir Johnson or Andrea Bargnani are capable of taking over for Chris Bosh if he were to leave this summer. Sure they can make up for some of his production, but neither of these two are what I would consider to be an integral core piece like Bosh is.

 

Outside of DeRozan they don't have any real potentially franchise building block youth. Even their veterans this year aren't exactly ideal. The Raptors young wing players (DeRozan, Weems and Belinelli) have Hedo Turkoglu and Antoine Wright to learn from. Not exactly what I would consider "solid" or 'ideal".

 

Calderon and Jack aren't bad though.

 

Again though, it goes back to the point of where you stand on the "whole first round exit vs. lottery team" debate. I don't thnk that being first round fodder is a good thing at all, and you think making the playoffs is valuable no matter what (which I can understand if you have a great young core).

 

I don't understand this at all, honestly.

 

First of all, Bosh is an established star. He's got a tremendous skill-set, a great work-ethic, and on top of that, he flat out wants to win. A 24 and 11 by average big man who is arguably the 2nd best power forward in the league right behind Dirk Nowitzki.

 

Second of all, the idea to intentionally rid the team of Bosh for the goal of a high draft pick is a huge risk. Your envisioned plan sounds like something along the lines of letting Bosh walk, tank the following year, and hope to land a big time draft pick to be your franchise player. What if this pick turns out to be a bust, or a player with less potential than Bosh's current value? Remember, Bargnani is a first pick, and who's better, him or Bosh?

 

Third, it sounds like you are looking to get rid of a franchise player for a potential franchise player. Are you saying that Bosh, the 2nd best PF in the league, isn't fit to be your franchise guy in the first place?

 

Last, there are other ways to tank than by getting rid of your best player. The Heat managed to do it, I'm sure the Raptors could if they wanted as well. Even then, tanking doesn't actually seem like the best option to me to begin with.

 

I'm not saying that I would just rather let Bosh walk and start from scratch. I would've loved for the Raptors to actually build the team around Bosh and not just throw a rag tag assortment of players around him. The problem is that they have done a horrible job of building around Bosh.

 

The one time that I think they did a good job of trying to build around him, the players that they managed to put around him were simply not as capable as they used to be. Jermaine O'Neal was unreliable and inconsistent due to his knee problems, Anthony Parker was not the very good defender that he was in his younger days, Jose Calderon was exposed as a full time starting point guard, Shawn Marion never really intended to stick around and even then he wasn't the same player he used to be (whether it was because of a decline or not fitting in the system) and Joey Graham, Jamario Moon and Jason Kapono were all too one dimensional/stupid.

 

Now Colangelo is just deciding to throw offensive minded players who don't have a clue what they are doing defensively around him, which is a terrible idea considering Bosh himself is an offensive minded player with average defense.

 

Again, its not like I want Bosh to leave, but when you consider that the Raptors will have $50M tied into a mediocore core, two of which are untradeable (Turkoglu because of his contract and Bargnani because Colangelo won't move him), and Calderon who won't land you anything significant anyways, I'm just saying that the Raptors might be better off losing Bosh and trying to start from scratch.

 

PS: The jury is still out on whether or not Bosh is actually fit to be a franchise player. It is very much up in the air whether or not Bosh is in fact fit to be a franchise player, or if he is just a really great 2nd option. Personally, I think that Bosh could be a franchise player if he is put into the correct situation, but unfortunately for Raptor fans, we may never see this situation occur in Toronto.

 

Like I said above, the Raptors actually have a core. Bosh, Calderon, Turkoglu, and Jack are their vets and Bargnani, DeRozan, Weems, and Johnson is their youth. Sure, you can say the glass is half empty and look at all the holes in the line up, but with good coaching to maximize all these players abilities, it could turn into something successful.

 

It depends on what your view of successful is. Is making the playoffs but advancing to the 2nd round at best each year a success? Or sooner or later does the playoff appearances lose their luster and it becomes a finals appearance or an NBA Championship that you determine as a success?

 

That core you described it certainly capable of making one of those scenarios a reality, but not the other one.

 

PS: This is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, but I always find it funny how when people talk about the Raptors they list Bargnani as youth and Bosh as a vet, but if you actually look at it they are basically the exact same age (Bosh is less than a year older than Bargnani if I'm not mistaken) and have the same amount of pro basketball experience (7 years for Bosh in the NBA compared to Bargnani's 4 NBA years and 3 in Italy).

 

Anyways, onto the rest of this.

 

I think if a team is good enough to make the playoffs, you go for it. Putting a team in playoff position gives a team a base to improve on heading into the next year. It not only builds chemistry and confidence within the team, but it also helps create an identity, and as the players start to understand it, that in itself can help eventually create a contender as pieces are brought in year by year.

 

The thing is though, where are these pieces going to come from? I don't disagree with any of your points in regards to chemistry, experience and confidence, but where are these pieces going to come from when you have limited trade resources (Banks and Evans' expiring contracts are really the only trade chips they have for next season), only the MLE and LLE to use in free agency for the forseeable future and no 1st round draft pick (for this year at least)?

 

Just look at the Hawks, for example. Year by year they've been a borderline playoff team. As they improved their youth (Williams, Smith, Horford), and mixed them with their veterans (Bibby, Johnson, Evans), and brought in a piece or two after each year (Crawford, Joe Smith). Over time, they built confidence as their playoff success grew. They developed an identity, strengthened it through each passing year, and gradually turned from a borderline playoff team into what's looking like a 50+ win team this year. Next year, if Joe Johnson stays, they may even become championship contenders, if they aren't already right now.

 

The Hawks weren't a borderline playoff team though. They missed the playoffs for 8 straight years and the most wins that they managed to get in those 8 years was in 2002-2003 with 35. They had 5 seasons of under 30 wins. They were landing good picks in the draft, which is where they built their core.

 

They drafted Al Horford 3rd overall, Marvin Williams 2nd overall, Josh Smith 17th overall, Sheldon Williams who they turned into Mike Bibby and Boris Diaw (granted he was 21st overall), who they turned into Joe Johnson via that sign and trade with Phoenix. They built a large part of their core through the draft and then added the necessary pieces to compliment them in guys like Bibby and Crawford. They were also fortunate enough to land a top 4 SG in the NBA through free agency, which is rare and not a possibility for the Raptors.

 

Now compare the way that the Hawks built their team (through the draft and with nice complimentary signings/trades, some which involved players that they had drafted) to the way that Toronto has built their team. The Raptors have Chris Bosh, Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan as the only players on the team that they drafted. The rest of the team was acquired through free agency or trades. Also, Toronto has been closer to the playoffs than the bottom of the standings for the 4 years, while Atlanta was closer to the bottom of the standings than the playoffs for the better part of 8 years.

 

I understand what you are trying to say, but the thing is, Atlanta has basically built their team, for the most part, the way that I am describing that I want the Raptors to build their team. They got a solid core through the draft, used their expendable pieces to acquire the necessary pieces that they need and gave the team time to mature together. The Raptors are trying to build their team through trades and free agency, which in a salary cap world hardly ever works.

 

It's best to fight for the highest position possible every year and develop an identity than to blow up the team whenever it doesn't have the utmost success.

 

But what about when that highest possible position is a 7th seed and first round playoff exit year after year? Would it be better to settle for this mediocrity year in and year out, or would it be better to blow it up and attempt to build a team whos highest possible position would be top 3 in the conference and an NBA Finals appearance?

 

Its not like this is a team who used to be a contender and has had an off year or something. This is a team who has been over the salary cap and has been the same general team (same philosophy, different personnel) for the last 4 seasons and they have 2 playoff appearances, and a combined 3 playoff wins to show for it.

 

- If resigned, the Raptors have the second best power forward in the league in Chris Bosh, and simply a tremendous all around player. A guy you can't ask much more of for his position.

- One of the best offensive point guards in the league in Jose Calderon. A great shooter, passer, and all around decision maker on offense. His defense leaves much to be desired, though from what I've seen, he appears to give some effort.

- One of the best back up guards in the league in Jarret Jack who could probably start for many other teams. Though he's a couple steps behind Calderon in terms of passing and shooting, he's a better slasher and defender.

- A point-forward in Hedo Turkoglu that can create mismatches due to his size, ability to drive and shoot, and overall playmaking ability. He lacks defense, but if utilized properly on offense, his capabilities on that end would make up for it.

- A talented center in Andrea Bargnani who creates mismatches due to his athleticism and shooting ability. If he put more desire and energy into his defense, or possibly better coached if that is actually the real issue, he would be ideal as a franchise C.

- DeMar DeRozan, who is a promising athletic young wing with a decent skillset and seems to be improving over time. He has potential all star capabilities, and is also one of the better defensive players on the team who could eventually become relied to guard the best opposing perimeter player.

- A back up defensive big in Reggie Evens, who is widely known to be underrated among NBA players due to the intangibles he brings.

- A young wing and young power forward that can develop into solid back ups. Sonny Weems is a slasher and decent defender, and Amir Johnson rebounds well and brings energy defensively.

 

- Chris Bosh is a tremendous player and there really isn't much more that you can ask from him other than for him to play aggressively every night and not settle for jumpers when the going gets tough. However, when you are paying a guy a max contract, which is what Bosh will get, I definitely think that you can ask for more from him night in and night out that he has given the Raptors, particularly on the defensive end. Then again, it is hard for him to make an impact defensively playing with Bargnani, who may have the worst help defense among starting centers in the NBA.

 

- Calderon hasn't even been that good offensively this season though (he has been good, but he hardly deserves the moniker of "one of the best defensive point guards" based on his play this year), and that makes him fairly useless on the floor because he is such a liability on the floor. Even though his numbers don't really reflect much of a difference between this year and last year, just ask any Raptor fan which version of Calderon they would rather have. On a different team I think that Calderon would thrive because of the fact that they would be able to make up for his limitations defensively, but when you are already the worst defensive team in the league, it is really hard to have the worst defensive point guard in the league as your starter, and it is even harder to be paying him $9-10M over the next 4 years, unless he is an elite offensive talent, whcih Calderon is not.

 

- Don't disagree with anything you said about Jack. I actually think that he could be a valuable piece heading forward and is one of the players that I would like Toronto to hold onto. In fact, this season he has actually been the better shooter than Calderon has. The only thing that Calderon has on him is being a better passer really.

 

- Lets be real with Turkoglu, do you honestly believe any of what you typed about him? I think it is pretty clear that he is no longer worried about making an impact on the floor or exploiting any mismatches that he may create. He got his pay day and now he is going to coast on it for the next 5 years in which he will probably retire and head back to Turkey. When talking about a teams future, a player like Hedo Turkoglu (this version of Turkoglu at least) is a stain on that team, regardless of what anybody else has to say.

 

- Bargnani will never be a franchise center. He is talented and brings a lot to the table offensively, but he will never be a franchise center. Like I said above, I think that if he paired up with the right power forward/center he could be a valuable piece, but if the Raptors continue their insistence on having a Bosh/Bargnani frontcourt, neither of them will bring everything that they can to the table. Offensively maybe, but not in terms of all around players because one will be forced into situations that he isn't capable of doing (like Bosh anchoring a defense).

 

- Agree with you the DeRozan, Johnson and Weems points.

 

- Reggie Evans actually sucks in ever catagory other than rebounding, hustle, cheerleading and having a great beard. He can't shoot free throws, thinks he is an offensive threat and is a bad defensive player. His most appealing quality to the Raptors is his expiring contract next season. I still love him though.

 

There are plenty of holes in it, of course, which is obviously why they aren't contenders thus far, but those can be fixed over time. For now, you have to embrace what you have and maximize the talent that you commit to.

 

Turkoglu is obviously a big question mark, and can either be a long-term problem, or a positive asset if he gave more commitment and the organization put more commitment into making the most out of Turk's abilities.

 

As for the rest of the guys, they really aren't bad pieces at all. Really, they are one of the best offensive teams in the league as-is, and maybe with the right tweaks this summer and the next, they could eventually become contenders. First thing is first, though. It is imperative to keep Bosh.

 

The biggest hole that this team has is the lack of a true second option, All-Star caliber player on the wings. The problem with this is that unless DeRozan develops into this player (which is possible, but not a given) the Raptors have little ways to acquire this player. They are either going to have to luck into one in the draft or hope that a team is desperate enough to dump a long term contract onto the Raptors in exchange for cap relief in the form of Evans and Banks' contracts along with another asset.

 

Another problem is that they need to completely change the culture of the team, which is extremely difficult to do.

 

I'm not worried about them finding the complimentary pieces that they would need because Colangelo, despite all of his flaws, is very good at finding these kinds of players.

 

The rest of the players on the Raptors aren't bad pieces, but aside from Bosh, DeRozan and Jack (Bargnani and Calderon on a different team) none of them are what I would consider to be real good pieces either. Johnson and Weems, and even Wright, are solid pieces as well, but they are the kind that are easy to replace.

 

You build with your core 3 and surround those players with the necessary talent to compliment them. The problem for Toronto is that the only player who as of right now can be considered as a legit core player is Chris Bosh, who might not even be with the team next year.

[Real Deal]

Increased the quote embedding count. Sorry about that.