Who is better?

[ChosenOne]

Who is better when they are both on top of their games?

 

Kevin Martin:

PPG 20.5

RPG 3.6

APG 2.4

SPG 1.0

BPG 0.1

FG% 0.414

FT% 0.877

3P% 0.333

MPG 35.5

 

Monta Ellis:

PPG 25.3

RPG 4.0

APG 5.3

SPG 2.2

BPG 0.4

FG% 0.446

FT% 0.759

3P% 0.332

MPG 41.3

Edited April 15, 2010 by ChosenOne

[Legacy]

Monta

[Check my Stats]

Monta is way more skilled and athletic, I think Martin is really overrated a lot of the time, he is a chucker. I think Monta, if utilized correctly, can be a useful player in just about any system, it is obvious he thrives in a Golden State type of open court system, but he is really talented and is a 20 point player no matter where he plays.

 

People say Monta is a product of a [expletive]ty team and system, but he is shooting 45% on taking that many shots which is very respectable, I think he is a great player and Martin is just solid.

[Make It Naaaashty]

Monta for sure. Just as Steve said Monta is way more athletic and if used correctly can be very dangerous.

[ChosenOne]

Monta

 

lol my bad

 

Also a thing to note is that Ellis has taken over double the shots Ellis has.

[Real Deal]

While I think Monta should've been an all-star (because you shouldn't be able to average 25/4/5 and NOT get in), I think he may be not so much of a product of the system, but of the poor team he's playing for. Ellis does quite a bit for the Warriors, but his role on the team is sometimes so large, it hurts the teammates around him.

 

It's a big reason why I think the Warriors would be better off dealing him to a team that will dish out a big, so Golden State can allow Curry to run the team.

 

With that said, Ellis is a better offensive player, and he's also a better defender, than Kevin Martin. I would explain, but I don't think anyone really needs to. Just watch the two play.

[Poe]

Gunna go with Martin. I haven't watched either of the two play very much, but judging by statistics alone, K-Mart is the winner, but only slightly.

 

 

For one, Martin is clearly the better scorer statistically. Ellis has a pretty bad True Shooting percentage of nearly 52%, while K-Mart has a respectable 59% TS%. Per 36 minutes this year, Ellis averages 22 points in 19 shot attempts, while K-Mart averages 21 points in 15 shot attempts.

 

As for everything else, Ellis is the better passer and a better ball hawk averaging 4.6 assists (3.3 TOs) and 1.9 steals, while K-Mart averages 2.4 assists (2 TOs) and 1 steal. I don't know if the steal numbers make Ellis the better defender, since Martin brings more length. Overall, though, K-Mart is slightly better with a PER of 17.0, and Ellis has 16.7.

[Real Deal]

Gunna go with Martin. I haven't watched either of the two play very much, but judging by statistics alone, K-Mart is the winner, but only slightly.

 

 

For one, Martin is clearly the better scorer statistically. Ellis has a pretty bad True Shooting percentage of nearly 52%, while K-Mart has a respectable 59% TS%. Per 36 minutes this year, Ellis averages 22 points in 19 shot attempts, while K-Mart averages 21 points in 15 shot attempts.

 

As for everything else, Ellis is the better passer and a better ball hawk averaging 4.6 assists (3.3 TOs) and 1.9 steals, while K-Mart averages 2.4 assists (2 TOs) and 1 steal. I don't know if the steal numbers make Ellis the better defender, since Martin brings more length. Overall, though, K-Mart is slightly better with a PER of 17.0, and Ellis has 16.7.

Why would any of those numbers (especially PER and TS%) determine that Kevin Martin is the better player?

 

Here...

 

Rodrigue Beaubois

PER: 18.59

TS%: .617

 

Jamal Crawford

PER: 18.50

TS%: .573

 

What does that mean?

[Poe]

It takes Martin less shots to score the same number of points, and Ellis' numbers are inflated by the minutes he plays and the system he plays for. Martin is a more efficient scorer, and Ellis is a better playmaker though more turnover prone, and arguably a better defender, though Martin has more length. These are all things I am able to determine by the numbers.

 

 

The numbers you are pulling up show that Rod is a great shooter (which he is), and Jamal is a good shooter... which he is. PER is a bit more unfair when determining two players that play a significantly different amount of minutes and role like these two, whereas Ellis and Martin are both first scoring options on their teams, play a high number of minutes, and score about the same number of points when given the same playing time.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Poe

[Real Deal]

It takes Martin less shots to score the same number of points, and Ellis' numbers are inflated by the minutes he plays and the system he plays for. Martin is a more efficient scorer, and Ellis is a better playmaker though more turnover prone, and arguably a better defender, though Martin has more length. These are all things I am able to determine by the numbers.

 

 

The numbers you are pulling up show that Rod is a great shooter (which he is), and Jamal is a good shooter... which he is. PER is a bit more unfair when determining two players that play a significantly different amount of minutes and role like these two, whereas Ellis and Martin are both first scoring options on their teams, play a high number of minutes, and shoot about the same number of shots when given the same playing time.

That's all fine, but you're not considering other factors, like how many teams swarm Monta Ellis when he has the ball. Ellis sees many, many more doubles than Martin. It's not even close.

 

Ellis has more turnovers because he handles the ball much, much more.

 

I'm sure I can find two players with a difference in PER that you probably would question, similar minutes and roles...but I think you know that.

 

By all the stats you can give me, Kobe Bryant isn't even a top five player in the NBA, and Wade has probably blown him out all season long, even pre-injury, using your statistics...but we know better than to make a judgment based on that.

 

By the way...

 

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/forum/26-5-miami-heat-team-forum

[Poe]

That's all fine, but you're not considering other factors, like how many teams swarm Monta Ellis when he has the ball. Ellis sees many, many more doubles than Martin. It's not even close.

 

Ellis has more turnovers because he handles the ball much, much more.

 

That's probably true. I haven't watched either much this year, and I said in my original post that I was basing it off of stats. It's not always best to solely use stats to evaluate a player, but it at least gives me an idea on the different areas of their game.

 

But still, however defenses play Monta and Martin, Martin scores a similar number of points a minute, and more efficiently.

 

 

By the way...

 

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/forum/26-5-miami-heat-team-forum

Great job, man!

 

 

...kind of an odd place to tell me about this, though

[Real Deal]

Yeah dude, I don't know why I gave you the forum link. You were bound to see it anyway. I've been up all night, controlling low blood sugars, so I think I'm asleep right now.

[NomarFachix]

I've been up all night, controlling low blood sugars

 

I was too!

[Spanish_Chocholate_35]

Both are overrated, I choose MONTA