Kevin Durant on Kobe: "He's probably the best ever."

[BeeZee]

LOS ANGELES -- Kevin Durant couldn't believe what he was hearing every time he turned on the TV or radio or what he was reading every time he picked up the paper or went on the Internet.

 

Kobe Bryant was getting old, he was past his prime; he was finally breaking down.

 

"I don't understand why people say he's lost a step," Durant said outside the Thunder locker room before Game 5 on Tuesday night. "He's the greatest player in the game. There are only a couple guys who can turn it on and off like him and get 15 in a row and also get 10 assists and get their guys involved. He's probably the best ever. You can't say that he's lost a step. He's the same Kobe from a while back, maybe he's not dunking on a lot of guys like he was back in '01, '02 but he's still the same Kobe."

 

As Durant talked to his teammates on the bus ride over to Staples Center, he told them there were two kinds of Kobe Bryant they were going to encounter Tuesday and both could be equally deadly in a do-or-die game as Game 5 was being billed.

 

"You never know what Kobe is going to do," Durant said. "He can turn it on and off so easily. You got to be ready for him to hit 10 in a row. A guy like that can get hot at any time. [in Game 4] I thought he was going to [go off], but he kind of deferred to his teammates and tried to get everybody involved. It's better when he tries to get everyone involved, that's Kobe Bryant. Once he gets 12 or 13 points in the first quarter that's the Black Mamba. We want him to be Kobe Bryant not Black Mamba. Our toughest job is stopping the Black Mamba."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5142029

[Check my Stats]

My only knock on Kobe is he is content offensively launching jumpers (yes this is before his string of injuries this year guys) compared to getting to the rack.... also he only plays the defense he is capable of half the time. He is a great player but he is not better than LeBron James anymore.

[BlueDevil]

i unfortunately have to agree with the above.

BUT

i still truly believe that Kobe can hit any shot within half court

i wouldnt say the same about LeBron

and I saw LeBrons half court shot, so please dont post that

[YugoRocketsFan]

i unfortunately have to agree with the above.

BUT

i still truly believe that Kobe can hit any shot within half court

i wouldnt say the same about LeBron

and I saw LeBrons half court shot, so please dont post that

 

LeBron is shooting a higher percentage than Kobe outside the free throw line, ktnxbye.

 

He also isnt the best ever, having 1 championship as the leader doesnt make him the best.

[Real Deal]

Bryant played with arguably the most dominant center of all-time and scored just as much as he did in two of those championship runs. Just because a Finals MVP wasn't awarded to him doesn't make him Robin. We discuss this crap all the time. Tony Parker didn't lead the Spurs in 2007, Tim Duncan led that team...but he didn't win the Finals MVP.

 

Bryant has ran the triangle offense AND was a primary option along with Shaq. He was also the lockdown defensive player on the team. His role was far, far, far greater than that of Scottie Pippen's, even greater than Shaq's, and until any of you find me a "Robin" that has scored almost 30 PPG and ran the offense, AND defended the best player, from a championship team, you have absolutely nothing.

 

Don't even bother looking.

 

Kobe is the best overall player to ever play the game, arguably second behind Michael. Greatness, which includes the number of championships? He's not there yet...but overall play, offense and defense, skillsets, etc...he's there. To say he isn't shows your animosity towards what he has done in his career, and what he has done to your team.

[Lemon]

LeBron is shooting a higher percentage than Kobe outside the free throw line, ktnxbye.

 

He also isnt the best ever, having 1 championship as the leader doesnt make him the best.

 

Teams give Lebron space to take the midrange.

[Real Deal]

Teams give Lebron space to take the midrange.

Which is absolutely frustrating, by the way. It would be fantastic to see a team double him right when he touches the ball, but Cleveland has eight guys capable of knocking down threes (Mo, West, Gibson, Moon, Parker, Jamison, Jawad, Big Z). LeBron really does have the perfect teammates for his game, just as Iverson did in 2001.

 

Hell, teams still double Bryant when he touches the ball at 23 feet, but it's been a little less since the injury. Still...

[Hero]

I agree with Durant 100%. I know I'm biased, but I've never watched a more complete player than Kobe. His competitiveness and zeal is just unreal.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Teams give Lebron space to take the midrange.

 

I actually meant to say, 3 point line.

[Nitro]

Teams give Lebron space to take the midrange.

 

Because he is arguably the best player the NBA has ever seen at getting to the rim and finishing. Despite being given room on the jumper, he still shot over 50% this year from the field and his 3pt % is solid. And unlike Kobe he's a much crisper, selfless paser making it even more difficult to defend. If LeBron isn't scoring big points, he's racking up 10+ assists, and even when he had a dud of a supporting cast it was much the same.

 

As for Kobe being the greatest ever...we've gone through this enough. I will say though that Durant being a baby during MJ's true prime really affects his judgement in that regard. It's natural to look at your generation's stars in a much different, more biased light (especially when you have to play one of them head-to-head in your first ever playoff series).

[Hawks Fly High]

Because he is arguably the best player the NBA has ever seen at getting to the rim and finishing. Despite being given room on the jumper, he still shot over 50% this year from the field and his 3pt % is solid. And unlike Kobe he's a much crisper, selfless paser making it even more difficult to defend. If LeBron isn't scoring big points, he's racking up 10+ assists, and even when he had a dud of a supporting cast it was much the same.

 

As for Kobe being the greatest ever...we've gone through this enough. I will say though that Durant being a baby during MJ's true prime really affects his judgement in that regard. It's natural to look at your generation's stars in a much different, more biased light (especially when you have to play one of them head-to-head in your first ever playoff series).

 

 

Lebron shoots a higher % at the 3 point line because players defend off of him to stop his drive. His FG% is also inflated to above 50% because of the high amount of dunks and lay ups he takes. Please dont tell me Lebron is a better shooter than Kobe Bryant because he is not even the best shooter on his team. Lebron has a team built around him to insure him 10+ assists. Lebron really isnt a great passer but hes a smart passer. At any point of time when he is doubled he can hit it to a 3 pointer shooter ( Mo, Gibson, Moon, Parker, West, Jamison) and they can knock it down or he can give to an open big man ( Shaq, Z, Hickson, Jamison) to finsih the lay up.

 

Kobe Bryant plays in a triangle offense were many times he is not needed to score the basketball. He has 2 very capable big men in Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol.

 

Lebron plays the point forward where every play is run through him and he creates everything. If kobe really wanted to he could do that but he has people who demand touches and he gives it to them

[YugoRocketsFan]

Lebron shoots a higher % at the 3 point line because players defend off of him to stop his drive. His FG% is also inflated to above 50% because of the high amount of dunks and lay ups he takes. Please dont tell me Lebron is a better shooter than Kobe Bryant because he is not even the best shooter on his team. Lebron has a team built around him to insure him 10+ assists. Lebron really isnt a great passer but hes a smart passer. At any point of time when he is doubled he can hit it to a 3 pointer shooter ( Mo, Gibson, Moon, Parker, West, Jamison) and they can knock it down or he can give to an open big man ( Shaq, Z, Hickson, Jamison) to finsih the lay up.

 

Kobe Bryant plays in a triangle offense were many times he is not needed to score the basketball. He has 2 very capable big men in Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol.

 

Lebron plays the point forward where every play is run through him and he creates everything. If kobe really wanted to he could do that but he has people who demand touches and he gives it to them

 

Whats your point?

[Real Deal]

Whats your point?

That LeBron is not a better shooter than Kobe, and I agree.

 

I've seen LeBron catch fire, but an excellent defensive player would have no problem stopping LeBron's shooting. The drive is the biggest problem, and that ability to get to the rim anytime he wants is what makes him so damn good.

 

James still doesn't have a post game, and part of that is due to the inability to hit highly-contested shots against good defensive players (the other part being lack of footwork).

[YugoRocketsFan]

That LeBron is not a better shooter than Kobe, and I agree.

 

I've seen LeBron catch fire, but an excellent defensive player would have no problem stopping LeBron's shooting. The drive is the biggest problem, and that ability to get to the rim anytime he wants is what makes him so damn good.

 

James still doesn't have a post game, and part of that is due to the inability to hit highly-contested shots against good defensive players (the other part being lack of footwork).

 

He isnt the better shooter, obviously. But LeBron still puts it in the bucket at a wayyyy higher rate than Kobe. When you stop the drive, LeBron can still kill you with his shooting.

 

Having multiple offensive weapons doesnt really matter, LeBron doesnt need a post game, or a hook shot, he doesnt need it when he is averaging 30 ppg on 50% shooting

Edited May 1, 2010 by YugoRocketsFan

[Nitro]

Lebron shoots a higher % at the 3 point line because players defend off of him to stop his drive.Please dont tell me Lebron is a better shooter than Kobe Bryant because he is not even the best shooter on his team.

 

When did I say he was a better shooter than Kobe? And yes players do defend him to stop the drive, and he is doing what he is supposed to do...knocking down the 3 at a solid clip. To take away from him just because he is defended a certan way is ridiculous.

 

His FG% is also inflated to above 50% because of the high amount of dunks and lay ups he takes.

 

And that's a BAD thing?!? Teams can't stop him off the dribble when he is going to the basket, it is very rare. And now unlike earlier in his career he can hit the midrange and 3pt shot at an efficient percentage when he does get cut off.

 

Lebron has a team built around him to insure him 10+ assists. Lebron really isnt a great passer but hes a smart passer. At any point of time when he is doubled he can hit it to a 3 pointer shooter ( Mo, Gibson, Moon, Parker, West, Jamison) and they can knock it down or he can give to an open big man ( Shaq, Z, Hickson, Jamison) to finsih the lay up.

 

First off, look at LeBron's stats from early in his career when the offensive talent around him was absolute CRAP...before Williams, before Jamison, before Shaq, before West, before Moon, before Parker. He was averaging 7APG+ in his SECOND season as a 6'8'' 250lbs FORWARD.

 

And LeBron isn't a great passer? It isn't like he's simply drawing double teams and making the correct pass. The guy is an amazingly talented passer skill-wise. Every pass he makes is right on-point. He can make any kind of pass you wants; cross-court, bounce pass to the screener, behind the back pass, he can do it all. It is the single area that makes him SO special.

 

Kobe Bryant plays in a triangle offense were many times he is not needed to score the basketball. He has 2 very capable big men in Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol.

 

Ok? Right now with Kobe's injuries he cannot get to the rim. He cannot get to the line. Even when he is hot with the jumper he can't shoot over 50% (like game 6 in OKC). Kobe is arguably the most skilled, talented scorer the league has ever seen, but right now LeBron is being a far more effective scorer.

 

Lebron plays the point forward where every play is run through him and he creates everything. If kobe really wanted to he could do that but he has people who demand touches and he gives it to them

 

Even in his PRIME Kobe could never average over 8APG. He played out of the triangle one year and averaged 6APG but also notched over 4 TO's as well. He never was and never will be the playmaker LeBron is.

 

Scoring the ball, I'd take a healthy, prime Kobe over LeBron. But Kobe is not healthy, and IMO he exited his prime a year or 2 ago. He has more moves than anyone else, can score from more places than anyone else, and he is as witty as anyone else...but he doesn't have the athleticism he had when he was scoring 35PPG or scoring 50+ in 4 straight games. And without that athleticism, his efficiency has dropped to a point where his skillset doesn't compare to LeBron's ever-improving VERY efficient offensive game.

[Real Deal]

Even in his PRIME Kobe could never average over 8APG. He played out of the triangle one year and averaged 6APG but also notched over 4 TO's as well. He never was and never will be the playmaker LeBron is.

Just one thing I wanted to quote...you know that's not fair. That one season he played out of the triangle (which was only half of the season, by the way, and 44 of Kobe's 66 games), he had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom to pass to, with no shooters. Butler creates his own offense, and Odom is best as a facilitator. Even then, Atkins and Odom both averaged four assists that season, in the same lineup as Bryant...and Atkins handling the ball, and the lack of help on defense, is why the Lakers missed the playoffs that season.

 

Tomjanovich was 24-19, though...but once the triangle was re-introduced by Hamblen, it was evident that the team was toast by the way the roles reversed.

[Big Penny]

unlike Kobe he's a much crisper, selfless paser

please, that argument is old and irrelevant.

[Nitro]

Just one thing I wanted to quote...you know that's not fair. That one season he played out of the triangle (which was only half of the season, by the way, and 44 of Kobe's 66 games), he had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom to pass to, with no shooters. Butler creates his own offense, and Odom is best as a facilitator. Even then, Atkins and Odom both averaged four assists that season, in the same lineup as Bryant...and Atkins handling the ball, and the lack of help on defense, is why the Lakers missed the playoffs that season.

 

In this arguement, using the talent Kobe had around him back in 2004-2005 to justify his poor numbers passing the ball is futile because look at the cast LeBron had around him in that same year (LeBron's 2nd season). Besides him, only one player on the team averaged more than 1 3PM a game (Jeff McInnis at under 35% shooting from 3...I bet most members here forgot McInnis ever even existed). Kobe had 4 other players hitting over 1 3PM, with 3 of them shooting over 38% from 3. Despite the style of some of those Lakers' role players, for Kobe to average 6APGwith a whopping 4.1 TO's per game for a player that is primarily a jumpshooter is inexcusable. You'd expect the 4 TO's to be something LeBron would average considering how much ballhandling he does and how he attacks the rim, but his highest TO number was his ROOKIE season with 3.5 per game. Since then he has averaged 7.2APG or higher 4 different years, averaging a very low 3.2 TO's.

 

And as for Atkins handling the ball...if he was on a team with LeBron James, do you think he'd be doing anywhere near the amount of ballhandling/playmaking? The reason is because Kobe is not the playmaker LeBron is. You can't give him the ball 25ft from the basket straightaway every possession and expect him to make the correct play every time over the course of a game. His efficiency as a scorer will go down because he needs players to set the offense up and get him the ball in the mid-post position, his sweet spot. And as we've seen time and time again this year, he is TO prone when he is trying to force being a facilitator.

[Nitro]

please, that argument is old and irrelevant.

 

It's old and irrelevant? The 8.6APG with 3.3 TO's says otherwise.

[Poe]

Assist to turnover ratio isn't a good stat in my opinion. Turnovers don't always come from an attempted assist, and assist numbers can vary from the roles of each player, while turnover numbers are almost always relevant to players who have the ball in their hands a lot.

 

What's better is a turnover to steal/charge/deflection ratio. How many turnovers you force to cancel out the turnovers you create.

 

 

Just throwing that out there, btw.

 

 

Also turnovers aren't always the fault of the ball handler. A lot of the time, the worse your teammates are (bad hands, bad awareness, bad positioning, poorly run offense, etc), the more likely you are to turnover the ball.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Poe

[Nitro]

Assist to turnover ratio isn't a good stat in my opinion. Turnovers don't always come from an attempted assist, and assist numbers can vary from the roles of each player, while turnover numbers are almost always relevant to players who have the ball in their hands a lot.

 

What's better is a turnover to steal/charge/deflection ratio. How many turnovers you force to cancel out the turnovers you create.

 

 

Just throwing that out there, btw.

 

I agree, but when you expect your star player to be the primary ballhandler/passer/scorer, you need efficiency. For players like Wade, the high TO's are fine because he's giving you 7APG and shooting a high % because he's driving to the rim all the time. For a player like Kobe, however, who does his damage outside on the perimeter, 4 TO's is unacceptable when he's only shooting 45-46% as well.

 

That's why I call it playmaking, not strictly passing. Being a playmaker means a LOT more than just being skilled as a passer.

 

As for the edited part of your post, look at my previous post regarding the quality of players in the 2004-2005 season we are referring to.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Nitro1118

[Poe]

I agree, but when you expect your star player to be the primary ballhandler/passer/scorer, you need efficiency. For players like Wade, the high TO's are fine because he's giving you 7APG and shooting a high % because he's driving to the rim all the time. For a player like Kobe, however, who does his damage outside on the perimeter, 4 TO's is unacceptable when he's only shooting 45-46% as well.

 

That's why I call it playmaking, not strictly passing. Being a playmaker means a LOT more than just being skilled as a passer.

Almost every player in the NBA during that "inexcusable" 4 TO year said that Kobe was the hardest player to guard in the NBA, at least from quotes I heard and read. Numbers can be deceiving, but I think I can trust the personal experience of the top defenders in the league.

 

Also, when you are double teamed on almost every possession and the only players to pass to are the poor hands of Kwame Brown, the poor IQ of Smush Parker and Kareem Rush and Brian Cook, the mistake-prone Luke Walton and Chris Mihm and Jumaine Jones, and the inconsistencies of Lamar Odom and Caron Butler.... You're gunna get some turnovers.

[Nitro]

Almost every player in the NBA during that "inexcusable" 4 TO year said that Kobe was the hardest player to guard in the NBA, at least from quotes I heard and read. Numbers can be deceiving, but I think I can trust the personal experience of the top defenders in the league.

 

Except for AI and Wade, I can't think of another player in the last 10 years or so that has averaged over 4 TO's per game (Edit: Steve Francis did it twice...suprise suprise...)

 

And IMO Kobe is a top 10 player all-time and the most skilled player the game has ever seen. I am not denying his greatness or the fact that for the better part of the last decade he has been the game's best player. The issue is we are comparing him to another historic player with considerably better playmaking ability (which is the area we are discussing right now).

 

Also, when you are double teamed on almost every possession and the only players to pass to are the poor hands of Kwame Brown, the poor IQ of Smush Parker and Kareem Rush and Brian Cook, the mistake-prone Luke Walton and Chris Mihm and Jumaine Jones, and the inconsistencies of Lamar Odom and Caron Butler.... You're gunna get some turnovers.

 

Of course...but if you are an elite player and expected to be the primary scorer and playmaker on your team, you can't make excuses for poor efficiency. I already showed the examples of LeBron being efficient despite an EXTREMELY poor offensive team his first few NBA seasons, and as another example look at T-Mac back in 06-07 when Yao was injured for half the year. As being a VERY similar player to Kobe, T-Mac, with a very poor offensive cast around him, averaged 6.5APG with just 3 TO's. He was doubled as much as any player in the league. His 2nd option was RAFER ALSTON. And as good a playmaker as T-Mac was back when he was remotely healthy, even he is not the playmaker LeBron is.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Nitro1118

[Real Deal]

Turnovers aren't always the passer's fault. As Poe pointed out, Kobe had to put up with quite a bit. There were hundreds of times where Atkins would start to cut, then just suddenly stop, and Kobe's pass would fly out of bounds. Stone hands Kwame couldn't catch anything, and those would go against Bryant (for some reason), or a Bryant pass would fly right past Kwame's face, and he would be too busy still trying to establish post.

 

You're telling us that Kobe isn't that great of a playmaker, basically, and using the AST/TO ratio to prove it. He's a four-time champion as a playmaker in the triangle offense. Ask Shaq about Kobe's playmaking skills, and just how many perfect passes he delivered to him in the post, on penetrations, wrapping them around players' backs and through their arms and legs.

 

An assist is a two-way street, as said earlier. Out of the triangle offense, which demands five able-bodied passers on the floor at all times, Kobe's help has been one-on-one shot-creators or players with bad hands, the inability to convert, or a lack of offensive awareness.

 

In fact, having watched Bryant more than anyone else back in 2004-05, a ton of those turnovers were due to his teammates, but a few were also due to Bryant splitting doubles (attempting to), getting trapped 35 feet from the rim (because teams doubled him anywhere on the floor), and just driving into traffic and trying to make something happen.

[Nitro]

Turnovers aren't always the passer's fault. As Poe pointed out, Kobe had to put up with quite a bit. There were hundreds of times where Atkins would start to cut, then just suddenly stop, and Kobe's pass would fly out of bounds. Stone hands Kwame couldn't catch anything, and those would go against Bryant (for some reason), or a Bryant pass would fly right past Kwame's face, and he would be too busy still trying to establish post.

 

You're telling us that Kobe isn't that great of a playmaker, basically, and using the AST/TO ratio to prove it. He's a four-time champion as a playmaker in the triangle offense. Ask Shaq about Kobe's playmaking skills, and just how many perfect passes he delivered to him in the post, on penetrations, wrapping them around players' backs and through their arms and legs.

 

An assist is a two-way street, as said earlier. Out of the triangle offense, which demands five able-bodied passers on the floor at all times, Kobe's help has been one-on-one shot-creators or players with bad hands, the inability to convert, or a lack of offensive awareness.

 

In fact, having watched Bryant more than anyone else back in 2004-05, a ton of those turnovers were due to his teammates, but a few were also due to Bryant splitting doubles (attempting to), getting trapped 35 feet from the rim (because teams doubled him anywhere on the floor), and just driving into traffic and trying to make something happen.

 

See, my problem with your posts is your putting all this blame on his teammates as to why the numbers stack up the way they do...yet don't give the same consideration to LeBron. As I said in my post earlier, LeBron had a worse offensive team than Kobe did back in 2004-2005 (I don't like to use his numbers from after that because a) after 2004-2005 he became a one-man wrecking crew as a scorer, and b) the triangle offense that Phil put into place is a totally different animal and demands a much different style of play from Kobe than virtually any other style of offense). Kobe had shooters. LeBron did not. Kobe had players that allowed him to play off-ball, lessening his chances of TO's. LeBron did not. Kobe was a 9th or 10th year veteran. LeBron was a 2nd year player. I don't care what excuses you can make, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for a perimeter player to average 4 TO's with only 6APG. That is extremely poor efficiency, which really wouldn't be a problem if he was also scoring the ball with high efficiency, which he wasn't. At some point the importance of skill level diminishes when efficiency is that poor.

 

And also, as JVG and Mark Jackson often point out during games, you have to know your teammates. Everyone knows Kwame Brown has stones for hands, as should Kobe...a bullet pass to Kwame should be out of the question. LeBron didn't exactly have the smartest or more skilled bunch earlier in his career but was smart enough with the ball to have a very high AST:TO ratio.

 

As I said earlier as well, I don't considering playmaking purely passing. It includes decision-making, and as I've seen time and time again this year, Kobe will dribble himself into a double team and wait about 2 seconds too long to get the ball out of his hands, thus creating a TO. The game at GS about a month back pops into my mind. That is because Kobe's first reaction is always to score, and if he gets into trouble and tries to bail himself out, he's prone to causing a TO. And unlike LeBron's, he's not 6'8''-6'9'' with the ability to look over the defense and make the proper cross-court pass to an open shooter. That is a pass LeBron makes that I often see Kobe getting picked off on.

 

Lastly, as for the Shaq comment...yes, Kobe did play with Shaq well. He fed the post better than anyone else on the team. Kobe was the team's primary facilitator. But in the triangle, the responsibilities on individual passers are far lessened because the offense moves through the post, thus not being the best showcase for overall playmaking ability. LeBron has been giving great feeds to Shaq in the post all year, giving him perfect bounce passes off the screen and roll, giving him that nice wrap around pass as well. But what LeBron has to do for his team that Kobe did not have to do is create for others in a far greater variety of ways. Constant pick and rolls, tough passes off penetration to the shooter, pin-point passes to guys like Varejao cutting to the basket...James makes plays for his teammates in virtually every offensive set there is. There are just too many passes LeBron makes on a consistent basis that more often than not would cause Kobe to cough up the ball.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Nitro1118