Kevin Durant on Kobe: "He's probably the best ever."

[Big Penny]

It's old and irrelevant? The 8.6APG with 3.3 TO's says otherwise.

i never said LeBron is a bad passer, but talking about how he's much more 'selfless' than Kobe is an old and irrelevant argument

[Poe]

Yeah, assists are a stat as well. Players can selfishly get assists.

 

 

Also, the more often the ball is in a player's hands, naturally the more turnovers they will average. In Steve Nash's MVP years, he averaged nearly 4 TOs per game. I suppose that is inexcusable as well.

 

Turnovers aren't always a reliable stat. It entirely depends on how often the ball is in a player hands, what kind of offense they play and how they are used in it, the pace of their offense, the reliability of their teammates, and lastly, the ability of the offensive player to give accurate passes and make the correct read in every situation.

 

 

Also, LeBron averaged 3.8 turnovers per 48 minutes in 04/05. The Cavs averaged 13.9 turnovers per game. LeBron averaged 27% of the Cavs' turnovers and his USG% was 29.

 

Kobe averaged 4.8 turnovers per 48 minutes in 04/05. The Lakers averaged 14.3 turnovers per game. Kobe averaged 33% of the Lakers' turnovers and his USG% was 32.

 

 

Okay, so looking at stats alone and disregarding Kobe's unreliable teammates and the fact that he was playing a different offense than he played in the first 8 or so years of his career, LeBron wins. All hail LeBron. Lets also ignore how well Kobe did the following year, when he was back in the offense he was comfortable in:

 

Kobe averaged 3.6 TOs per 48 minutes in 05/06. The Lakers averaged 13.9 TOs per game. Kobe averaged 26% of the Lakers' turnovers. His USG% was 39.

[Real Deal]

See, the problem is this: you're slamming Bryant just to make LeBron look like a better playmaker. I don't see anyone doing the opposite of that in here.

 

Allen Iverson averaged seven assists per game with just three turnovers in a few of his NBA seasons as well (at least I'm 99% sure of it, and it was in Philly), so is he a better playmaker than Kobe Bryant? Is he on the same level as LeBron?

 

Guys that slash, slash, slash...they draw defenders better than anyone else. Drawing defenders, then passing it to the open man...basic basketball, and you rack up assists while doing it. In the last decade, you can take the top three slashers in the NBA, list them, and find that LeBron and Iverson are written on that piece of paper.

 

You're giving me teammates like Jeff McInnis and Anderson Varejao. Zydrunas Ilgauskas was still putting up big numbers back then, and Drew Gooden was also a good player. Both were probably shooting over 47% from the floor and scoring as the second and third options (again, don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure of it). But LeBron's seven assists and three turnovers didn't mean much, because I'm also pretty sure that Cleveland team didn't even make the playoffs (James first got in during his third season).

 

Funny enough, the same thing happened with Allen Iverson, when all he really had to work with was a young Iguodala (second season) who didn't even contribute the way Gooden did, plus a dirt-old Webber who wasn't shooting well from the floor and didn't look as good as Ilgauskas. Korver and Salmons were pathetic shooters, by their standards, in that season, and the Sixers didn't even reach .500 that year...but, believe it or not, Iverson did get his seven assists, and three turnovers...

 

There are plenty of instances of it, I'm sure. You're comparing apples and oranges when you start talking about what roles these guys had on their teams, and what teammates they had. You didn't want Kobe passing the ball to Kwame? Because Odom didn't play in the post, Brown and Mihm were their only post threats...and that's why Kwame was taking six shots per game in the triangle. Not Bryant's problem.

 

In fact, Kobe and Odom (and Smush, Kwame, and Cook) were the starters for a team that won 45 games and made the playoffs. Odom was no better than Ilgauskas was in 2004-05. Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, and Devean George all started games that season as well. Scrub city. You don't see people talking about how Kobe led that team to a playoff spot, yet LeBron didn't lead his to one in a weaker East, with basically better post scorers and much better defensive-minded teammates.

 

So if we're going to play it by your rules, Allen Iverson is a better playmaker than Kobe, and he's just as good as LeBron in that department. I'm not really sure if that's true.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Yeah, assists are a stat as well. Players can selfishly get assists.

 

 

Also, the more often the ball is in a player's hands, naturally the more turnovers they will average. In Steve Nash's MVP years, he averaged nearly 4 TOs per game. I suppose that is inexcusable as well.

 

Turnovers aren't always a reliable stat. It entirely depends on how often the ball is in a player hands, what kind of offense they play and how they are used in it, the pace of their offense, the reliability of their teammates, and lastly, the ability of the offensive player to give accurate passes and make the correct read in every situation.

 

 

Also, LeBron averaged 3.8 turnovers per 48 minutes in 04/05. The Cavs averaged 13.9 turnovers per game. LeBron averaged 27% of the Cavs' turnovers and his USG% was 29.

 

Kobe averaged 4.8 turnovers per 48 minutes in 04/05. The Lakers averaged 14.3 turnovers per game. Kobe averaged 33% of the Lakers' turnovers and his USG% was 32.

 

 

Okay, so looking at stats alone and disregarding Kobe's unreliable teammates and the fact that he was playing a different offense than he played in the first 8 or so years of his career, LeBron wins. All hail LeBron. Lets also ignore how well Kobe did the following year, when he was back in the offense he was comfortable in:

 

Kobe averaged 3.6 TOs per 48 minutes in 05/06. The Lakers averaged 13.9 TOs per game. Kobe averaged 26% of the Lakers' turnovers. His USG% was 39.

 

Well if you read Nitro's posts, when he mention turnovers, he also mentions efficiency and assists. Steve Nash's MVP year, he shot 50% on his shots (which is insane for a perimeter player, and strict jumpshooter), and averaged 11.5 assists. Plus he didnt average 4 turnovers a game, in 04-05 it was 3.27 turnovers a game, and in 05-06, it was 3.49, that is still at least a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio.

 

The situation of the player also doesnt really make a HUGE difference. Tracy McGrady for example averaged 6,5 APG, and 3 turnovers a game when he played under Van Gundy, when he was fired and the Rockets brought in Rick Adelman, he averaged 5.9 APG and 2.42 turnovers a game, all the things you mentioned do help, if you have good teammates, the perfect style of play, etc. but efficiency is very important.

 

Dont use per 48 stats either, those are as reliable as Hollinger's stats

[Nitro]

, the more often the ball is in a player's hands, naturally the more turnovers they will average. In Steve Nash's MVP years, he averaged nearly 4 TOs per game. I suppose that is inexcusable as well.

 

As Yugo mentioned, he also averaged nearly 5APG more and shot lights out from the field. Very bad example.

 

Turnovers aren't always a reliable stat. It entirely depends on how often the ball is in a player hands, what kind of offense they play and how they are used in it, the pace of their offense, the reliability of their teammates, and lastly, the ability of the offensive player to give accurate passes and make the correct read in every situation.

 

04-05 was the year Kobe had the ball most in his hands and had more responsibility than ever to create for his teammates because he was playing without a triangle and then a make-shift triangle. As I said before, the reliability of their teammates that season is irrelevant because LeBron had a worse offensive supporting cast around him. You cannot find me a wing player that is elite that coughed the ball up over 4x while managing only 6APG and shooting that poorly from the field. It just won't happen.

 

, so looking at stats alone and disregarding Kobe's unreliable teammates and the fact that he was playing a different offense than he played in the first 8 or so years of his career, LeBron wins. All hail LeBron. Lets also ignore how well Kobe did the following year, when he was back in the offense he was comfortable in:

 

Kobe averaged 3.6 TOs per 48 minutes in 05/06. The Lakers averaged 13.9 TOs per game. Kobe averaged 26% of the Lakers' turnovers. His USG% was 39.

 

I don't know how you're going to bring up the fact that it was a brand new offense when Kobe was an 8th year NBA veteran, ignoring the fact that LeBron was a SECOND YEAR player who had the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME, scored AS MUCH as Kobe yet was more efficient with the ball in terms of AST:TO and FG %.

 

And yes, his TO numbers were better when he was put back in the triangle...when his assists went down to 4.5 a game and PPG up to 35.4.

[Nitro]

See, the problem is this: you're slamming Bryant just to make LeBron look like a better playmaker. I don't see anyone doing the opposite of that in here.

 

I'm not slamming Kobe, but you can't argue the disparity in the stats and the fact that you can't find me another player in the last decade with a worse AST:TO ratio than Kobe had in 04-05, when he had the most responsibility he ever had as a playmaker. Not to mention even if you do excuse that fact, you're comparing him to a TRUE point-forward whose IMO as good of a passer as just about anyone in the league.

 

Allen Iverson averaged seven assists per game with just three turnovers in a few of his NBA seasons as well (at least I'm 99% sure of it, and it was in Philly), so is he a better playmaker than Kobe Bryant? Is he on the same level as LeBron?

 

In the seasons Iverson averaged 7APG he was averaging 4.5 TO's as well. And shooting a crappy percentage from the floor. Don't compare him to LeBron as a playmaker, that is a joke.

 

Guys that slash, slash, slash...they draw defenders better than anyone else. Drawing defenders, then passing it to the open man...basic basketball, and you rack up assists while doing it. In the last decade, you can take the top three slashers in the NBA, list them, and find that LeBron and Iverson are written on that piece of paper.

 

Please read my posts...I said if you are going to average 4 TO's plus a game, you better not only be racking up the assists but also be getting to the rim. Players that slash slash slash are guys that are most prone to TO's. That is why Wade, Francis and AI are the only guys I can think of besides Kobe that have managed over 4 TO's per game. Francis and AI's inefficiencies KILLED their teams offensively most seasons. When Wade was high up in TO's he was also being extremely efficienct from the field because he was getting to the rim. The fact that Kobe wasn't slashing slashing slashing yet still managed over 4 TO's to go along with only 6APG and a 43% FG %....I mean, c'mon.

 

Also, how are you going to use the fact that LeBron slashes so much AGAINST him? And how are you going to tell me that if Joe Johnson and T-Mac could put up 6APG+ with low TO's that Kobe can't do the same despite both of them being more perimeter oriented? Being primarily a jumpshooter should bolster efficiency, making the LeBron and Kobe AST:TO ratio even more alarming.

 

And I am NOT using just the numbers to show LeBron is a better playmaker than Kobe. I said it before that LeBron's passes are crisper, he has better court vision due to his size, better tendencis as a passer because it is such a big part of his game...but all those things cannot be proven, and if I showed a highlight video showcasing those talents it would be shot down because it is just a highlight mix.

 

You're giving me teammates like Jeff McInnis and Anderson Varejao. Zydrunas Ilgauskas was still putting up big numbers back then, and Drew Gooden was also a good player. Both were probably shooting over 47% from the floor and scoring as the second and third options (again, don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure of it). But LeBron's seven assists and three turnovers didn't mean much, because I'm also pretty sure that Cleveland team didn't even make the playoffs (James first got in during his third season).

 

Z was putting up big numbers? He was a solid 16/8 but was shooting below 47% from the field. Gooden's a solid player...but there's a reason Memphis and Orlando gave up on him in a 2-year stretch and why he's been on 8 different teams in his career. Make no mistake about they, they are no Caron Butler or Lamar Odom, and there is no question the other role players the Lakers had were more equipped to finish plays (especially from the 3pt line) than the Cavs had.

 

And Cleveland didn't make the playoffs that season...and neither did LA. In the last 2 months of the season LeBron averaged 31/8/7 on 3% better shooting than Kobe averaged that season yet they went 11-16 in that stretch and missed the playoffs by a single game. And I can't stress this enough...that was only LeBron's second season. Kobe was a veteran by then.

 

There are plenty of instances of it, I'm sure. You're comparing apples and oranges when you start talking about what roles these guys had on their teams, and what teammates they had. You didn't want Kobe passing the ball to Kwame? Because Odom didn't play in the post, Brown and Mihm were their only post threats...and that's why Kwame was taking six shots per game in the triangle. Not Bryant's problem.

 

I]n fact, Kobe and Odom (and Smush, Kwame, and Cook) were the starters for a team that won 45 games and made the playoffs. Odom was no better than Ilgauskas was in 2004-05. Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, and Devean George all started games that season as well. Scrub city. You don't see people talking about how Kobe led that team to a playoff spot, yet LeBron didn't lead his to one in a weaker East, with basically better post scorers and much better defensive-minded teammates.

 

Oh c'mon now, if you want to bring 05-06 into it then I can say LeBron brought virtually that same 04-05 team to 48 wins and brought the defending Eastern Conference champs to 7 games in the 2nd round of the playoffs. I thought Kobe deserved MVP that year, but he was NOT a better playmaker which is really the only area I am discussing.

 

And who there teammates are and what style of system they run...it DOESN'T MATTER. It's called making adjustments for the skae of your team, and Kobe's extremely inefficienct 04-05 campaign is inexcusable. Both he and LeBron had relatively poor teams (LeBron's even worse IMO), both had to make adjustments (LeBron being a young talent with increased responsibility and Kobe learning a new offense), and both were relied on heavily to make the proper plays for the teams. Despite being in different offenses, both had the ball the majority of the time and were expected to be the #1 scorer and playmaker of their teams. Kobe did not get the job done like he was supposed to. On purely playmaking, LeBron made a bigger impact with a higher efficiency.

 

So if we're going to play it by your rules, Allen Iverson is a better playmaker than Kobe, and he's just as good as LeBron in that department. I'm not really sure if that's true.

 

AI shouldn't even be in the discussion...he was inefficient as a playmaker/ballhandler the majority of his career, and an inefficient scorer the majority of his career. In no way, shape or form should he be mentioned in th same sentence as Kobe or LeBron.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Nitro1118

[Poe]

Well if you read Nitro's posts, when he mention turnovers, he also mentions efficiency and assists. Steve Nash's MVP year, he shot 50% on his shots (which is insane for a perimeter player, and strict jumpshooter), and averaged 11.5 assists. Plus he didnt average 4 turnovers a game, in 04-05 it was 3.27 turnovers a game, and in 05-06, it was 3.49, that is still at least a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio.

 

If you read MY posts, I already made a point against assist to turnover ratio. It's an irrelevant and sometimes over-glorified stat, like in this thread.

 

The situation of the player also doesnt really make a HUGE difference. Tracy McGrady for example averaged 6,5 APG, and 3 turnovers a game when he played under Van Gundy, when he was fired and the Rockets brought in Rick Adelman, he averaged 5.9 APG and 2.42 turnovers a game, all the things you mentioned do help, if you have good teammates, the perfect style of play, etc. but efficiency is very important.

 

I agree to some level. Still, when you play in a different offense and are used differently in the offense than you've been used before, stats and overall effectiveness will likely change. For example, in an extreme case you use Shaq as a perimeter player instead of a post player. You'll see the FG% go down and the turnover ratio go up, since you are using him completely away from his strengths as a player.

 

Dont use per 48 stats either, those are as reliable as Hollinger's stats

What? I'm confused. I used per 48 minutes to compare to the number of minutes played in a whole game, which would better compare the percentage of their team's total turnovers caused by the one player. I'm comparing that to the usage percentage (percentage of team players used by the player). If the usage percentage and the turnover percentage is the same, then the player isn't a negative impact by his turnovers. If it's lower, it's positive. If higher, it's negative. I hope that helped make what I originally said more sense.

[Real Deal]

In the seasons Iverson averaged 7APG he was averaging 4.5 TO's as well. And shooting a crappy percentage from the floor. Don't compare him to LeBron as a playmaker, that is a joke.

What Allen Iverson are you talking about?

 

2005-06: 7.4 APG, 3.4 TO, .447 FG

2007-08: 7.1 APG, 3.0 TO, .458 FG

 

But yeah...like I said, using your numbers and logic, Iverson is just as good of a playmaker as LeBron. Case closed.

[Nitro]

What Allen Iverson are you talking about?

 

2005-06: 7.4 APG, 3.4 TO, .447 FG

2007-08: 7.1 APG, 3.0 TO, .458 FG

 

But yeah...like I said, using your numbers and logic, Iverson is just as good of a playmaker as LeBron. Case closed.

 

This one:

 

'96-'97: 7.5APG, 4.4 TO's.

'00-'01: 5.5APG, 4.0 TO's

'03-'04: 6.8APG, 4.4 TO's

'04-'05: 7.9APG, 4.6 TO's

'06-'07: 7.2APG, 4.1 TO's

Edited May 3, 2010 by Nitro1118

[Real Deal]

This one:

 

'96-'97: 7.5APG, 4.4 TO's.

'00-'01: 5.5APG, 4.0 TO's

'03-'04: 6.8APG, 4.4 TO's

'04-'05: 7.9APG, 4.6 TO's

'06-'07: 7.2APG, 4.1 TO's

We all know he did that, but the point was, Iverson did have two seasons where he averaged seven assists and just three turnovers, so I guess in those two seasons, he must have been a pretty good playmaker...

[Real Deal]

Funniest part about all of this is that I'm not even denying LeBron's playmaking skills. I just don't agree with putting Kobe's in the dumpster just because of his A/TO ratio, when 1) he plays in a completely different offense, and 2) turnovers are caused by more than just bad passes.

 

You stick Bryant on a team with six or seven three-point shooters, and you'll see seven assists and three turnovers (or less) as well. That's a guarantee.

[Hawks Fly High]

When are you people going to realize it? Kobe is the best player in the NBA and here's why.

He is the most complete player. Lebron fans spend so much time emphasizing what advantages Lebron has over Kobe. Sure he's the better team player, better finisher at the rim, better shot blocker, and slightly better (only slightly) better passer. What you're forgetting is that there is not one skill that I have listed that Kobe doesn't possess. Kobe can at least compete with Lebron in each of those areas. Here are a couple of things that not only Kobe does better than Lebron, but he does exceptionally better than Lebron.

1. Lebron is a much improved shooter, but there is nothing any of you can say to convince me that he now serves as any type of threat in that field. So don't bother bringing up percentages or statistics. When I say shooting I mean: shooting off the dribble, off of screens, catch-and shoot, mid-range, long-range, with a hand in your face, in triple threat position, etc.

2. Lebron doesn't have nearly as many moves in his offensive arsenal as Kobe does. Which also leads me to believe that he isn't nearly as good a ball handler either.

3. Neither can he beat you as many ways as Kobe can. How do you defend Kobe? Do you play off of him?....so he can score 50+ on you?....Do you get in his grill?....so he can constantly find ways to get around you using different moves & basketball IQ?...Do you double team him?....so he can find the open teammate?....The answer to this question when defending Lebron is much more simple....Just simply give him some room. Like I said he is a much improved shooter, but he is still hesitant when it comes to shooting. When you take away the lane, he becomes a passer.

4. Dont get me wrong, Lebron is also a solid defender, but couldn't even dream of being a quarter of the defender Kobe is. I know it may seem that I'm overrating Kobe's D and underrating Lebron's, but hang on and I'll explain. Aside from the defensive accolades this is a no-brainer. If not then why was Kobe used as the defensive specialist during the 2008 Olympics instead of Lebron? Obviously Kobe isn't as strong, doesn't jump as high, or have better foot speed. He has better footwork and a much better defensive awareness. When you are being guarded by Kobe you can trust that 9/10 times: he knows your weaknesses and strengths, knows which way you want to go, and how you want to score. I agree his defensive game has lost a step, (considering that he could focus more on offense with Trevor Ariza carrying the a portion of the defensive load, and now Ron Artest to fill that void.) but it is still something that he clearly does better than Lebron.

5. As hard as it may seem to believe this, Kobe has a much better post-game than LBJ. With Lebron weighing over 260 lbs. in pure muscle, he should have the sharpest post-game for a swingman in the entire league. When Lebron scores, you see him dunking on fastbreaks, shooting free throws, and just running around his defender. How often do you see him back his defender down? How often do you see him catch the ball in the post and knock down a turn-around jumper? (or do any type of post-move for that matter.) Very seldom. That's because of a largely underdeveloped post-game. Kobe, on the other hand, utilizes his post-game to complement his shooting, ball handling, court vision, and strong array of moves.

6. Finally, Kobe is much more clutch. That means performing in the closing minutes of games in the face of adversity, and taking the last shot. With 6 seconds left on the clock, who's hands do you want the ball in? CERTAINLY NOT LEBRON. So he can get fouled and miss both free throws? So he can take the pressure off of himself by passing the ball to a teammate who has been struggling all game long? This may be a confidence builder for your teammate, but why would you pass the ball when you have a huge mismatch that could lead to a guaranteed bucket? Kobe has taken some questionable shots down the stretch of games, but he manages to come through most of the time.

People are saying Lebron could possibly be the best player ever based on potential. Trust me, Lebron is great but he doesn't have potential to be the GOAT. Kobe isn't even in his prime and still does so much better than Lebron; which is why I don't understand how people say Lebron was better than Kobe at age 24. The fact that there is even a debate now with Kobe at 31 years of age speaks wonders on how little of a contest it would have been if they were the same age. Lebron has athleticism and youth on his side, and Kobe still does as much if not more than Lebron on a nightly basis.

Now you statistic nerds can run to NBA.com all you want and wave around your little stats to prove otherwise, but they hold little weight in this argument. Lebron averages slightly more in every statistical category...SO? If I have a 90 in science class and you have a 93, does that mean that you're better at science than I am? What if you did extra credit assignments? What if I missed days? It is the same case here. Do you honestly believe that Kobe couldn't average 33, 7, and 7 if he was truly focused on doing so? He's done it before, why wouldn't he be able to do it again? Lebron pretty much has to put up those types of numbers for his team to win. Kobe used to have to do the same with the Lakers from 2005-2007 (which were much weaker teams than the 2008-2009 Cavs by the way). Kobe doesn't have to do that anymore to win games. Instead he can sacrifice 4 or 5 points a night & 1 or 2 assists/rebounds, and still win the game. If Kobe focused on maintaining such numbers for an entire season, he would be completely exhausted for the playoffs. That is why he just does what his team requires of him during the regular season and turns it up during the postseason. Maybe Lebron should have done the same. Then maybe he could have lead the Cavs past the Magic!

Sorry for such a long post, but had a lot to say.

[Nitro]

We all know he did that, but the point was, Iverson did have two seasons where he averaged seven assists and just three turnovers, so I guess in those two seasons, he must have been a pretty good playmaker...

 

He was a pretty good playmaker, even in those seasons where he averaged 4+ TO's, but he was very inefficient on ALL fronts. And we are not comparing him to LeBron James, who has never had a season where he's averaged more than 3.5 TO's and is coming off a season where he averaged 8.6APG...territory only PG's come near.

 

And why would you ask what AI I'm talking about when apparently "we all know he did that" regarding his 5 seasons where he was coughing the ball up at over 4x a game?

 

Funniest part about all of this is that I'm not even denying LeBron's playmaking skills. I just don't agree with putting Kobe's in the dumpster just because of his A/TO ratio, when 1) he plays in a completely different offense, and 2) turnovers are caused by more than just bad passes.

 

You stick Bryant on a team with six or seven three-point shooters, and you'll see seven assists and three turnovers (or less) as well. That's a guarantee.

 

Considering he's in what, his 13th or 14th season and has had only one season where he's eclipsed 6.0APG...in which he also averaged over 4 TO's per game...I beg to differ.

 

And yes, turnovers are more than bad passes, but playmaking also involves more than simply the pass itself. It's the decision-making, court vision, ballhandling...LeBron doesn't do what he does simply because he is a good passer. He is amazing at orchestrating an offense, he does so as well as a PG does. He knows exactly where players will cut to or spot up from, he is as good a pick and roll passer I've ever seen, he knows where his teammates like the ball, he knows how to attract the defense and dish, he's great at it all. Kobe is a very skilled passer, but he just doesn't have all the tools of a great playmaker to make those decisions consistently over the course of a 48min game. Maybe for stretches, but not for an entire game, let alone season.

 

And Kobe may need all those things just to eclipse 7APG...Bron was able to do that with virtually no shooters and Big Z and Drew Gooden as his 2nd and 3rd options. Now he has 3pt shooters and he's averaging nearly 9 a game. And less than 3.5 TO's.

[Nitro]

When are you people going to realize it? Kobe is the best player in the NBA and here's why.

He is the most complete player. Lebron fans spend so much time emphasizing what advantages Lebron has over Kobe. Sure he's the better team player, better finisher at the rim, better shot blocker, and slightly better (only slightly) better passer. What you're forgetting is that there is not one skill that I have listed that Kobe doesn't possess. Kobe can at least compete with Lebron in each of those areas. Here are a couple of things that not only Kobe does better than Lebron, but he does exceptionally better than Lebron.

1. Lebron is a much improved shooter, but there is nothing any of you can say to convince me that he now serves as any type of threat in that field. So don't bother bringing up percentages or statistics. When I say shooting I mean: shooting off the dribble, off of screens, catch-and shoot, mid-range, long-range, with a hand in your face, in triple threat position, etc.

2. Lebron doesn't have nearly as many moves in his offensive arsenal as Kobe does. Which also leads me to believe that he isn't nearly as good a ball handler either.

3. Neither can he beat you as many ways as Kobe can. How do you defend Kobe? Do you play off of him?....so he can score 50+ on you?....Do you get in his grill?....so he can constantly find ways to get around you using different moves & basketball IQ?...Do you double team him?....so he can find the open teammate?....The answer to this question when defending Lebron is much more simple....Just simply give him some room. Like I said he is a much improved shooter, but he is still hesitant when it comes to shooting. When you take away the lane, he becomes a passer.

4. Dont get me wrong, Lebron is also a solid defender, but couldn't even dream of being a quarter of the defender Kobe is. I know it may seem that I'm overrating Kobe's D and underrating Lebron's, but hang on and I'll explain. Aside from the defensive accolades this is a no-brainer. If not then why was Kobe used as the defensive specialist during the 2008 Olympics instead of Lebron? Obviously Kobe isn't as strong, doesn't jump as high, or have better foot speed. He has better footwork and a much better defensive awareness. When you are being guarded by Kobe you can trust that 9/10 times: he knows your weaknesses and strengths, knows which way you want to go, and how you want to score. I agree his defensive game has lost a step, (considering that he could focus more on offense with Trevor Ariza carrying the a portion of the defensive load, and now Ron Artest to fill that void.) but it is still something that he clearly does better than Lebron.

5. As hard as it may seem to believe this, Kobe has a much better post-game than LBJ. With Lebron weighing over 260 lbs. in pure muscle, he should have the sharpest post-game for a swingman in the entire league. When Lebron scores, you see him dunking on fastbreaks, shooting free throws, and just running around his defender. How often do you see him back his defender down? How often do you see him catch the ball in the post and knock down a turn-around jumper? (or do any type of post-move for that matter.) Very seldom. That's because of a largely underdeveloped post-game. Kobe, on the other hand, utilizes his post-game to complement his shooting, ball handling, court vision, and strong array of moves.

6. Finally, Kobe is much more clutch. That means performing in the closing minutes of games in the face of adversity, and taking the last shot. With 6 seconds left on the clock, who's hands do you want the ball in? CERTAINLY NOT LEBRON. So he can get fouled and miss both free throws? So he can take the pressure off of himself by passing the ball to a teammate who has been struggling all game long? This may be a confidence builder for your teammate, but why would you pass the ball when you have a huge mismatch that could lead to a guaranteed bucket? Kobe has taken some questionable shots down the stretch of games, but he manages to come through most of the time.

People are saying Lebron could possibly be the best player ever based on potential. Trust me, Lebron is great but he doesn't have potential to be the GOAT. Kobe isn't even in his prime and still does so much better than Lebron; which is why I don't understand how people say Lebron was better than Kobe at age 24. The fact that there is even a debate now with Kobe at 31 years of age speaks wonders on how little of a contest it would have been if they were the same age. Lebron has athleticism and youth on his side, and Kobe still does as much if not more than Lebron on a nightly basis.

Now you statistic nerds can run to NBA.com all you want and wave around your little stats to prove otherwise, but they hold little weight in this argument. Lebron averages slightly more in every statistical category...SO? If I have a 90 in science class and you have a 93, does that mean that you're better at science than I am? What if you did extra credit assignments? What if I missed days? It is the same case here. Do you honestly believe that Kobe couldn't average 33, 7, and 7 if he was truly focused on doing so? He's done it before, why wouldn't he be able to do it again? Lebron pretty much has to put up those types of numbers for his team to win. Kobe used to have to do the same with the Lakers from 2005-2007 (which were much weaker teams than the 2008-2009 Cavs by the way). Kobe doesn't have to do that anymore to win games. Instead he can sacrifice 4 or 5 points a night & 1 or 2 assists/rebounds, and still win the game. If Kobe focused on maintaining such numbers for an entire season, he would be completely exhausted for the playoffs. That is why he just does what his team requires of him during the regular season and turns it up during the postseason. Maybe Lebron should have done the same. Then maybe he could have lead the Cavs past the Magic!

Sorry for such a long post, but had a lot to say.

 

Check the player comparisons forum in 20min and I'll reply to all of this. I won't in this thread because here I'm strictly talking about playmaking.

[Check my Stats]

Holy [expletive] at that wall of text.

[Real Deal]

He was a pretty good playmaker, even in those seasons where he averaged 4+ TO's, but he was very inefficient on ALL fronts. And we are not comparing him to LeBron James, who has never had a season where he's averaged more than 3.5 TO's and is coming off a season where he averaged 8.6APG...territory only PG's come near.

 

And why would you ask what AI I'm talking about when apparently "we all know he did that" regarding his 5 seasons where he was coughing the ball up at over 4x a game?

We aren't talking all fronts, we're talking strictly A/TO ratio, or so I thought.

 

And I asked that about Iverson because you just told us a bit ago that there were NO seasons where he averaged seven assists and less than four turnovers, but you were wrong.

 

Considering he's in what, his 13th or 14th season and has had only one season where he's eclipsed 6.0APG...in which he also averaged over 4 TO's per game...I beg to differ.

Yeah, Michael Jordan (who was an excellent and underrated playmaker, by the way) had just three seasons over six assists per game in the 14-15 seasons he played (remove the injury season and his returning season, I guess), and the season he averaged his eight, he also threw over 3.5 TO...but hey, no reason to compare, I guess.

 

And yes, turnovers are more than bad passes, but playmaking also involves more than simply the pass itself. It's the decision-making, court vision, ballhandling...LeBron doesn't do what he does simply because he is a good passer. He is amazing at orchestrating an offense, he does so as well as a PG does. He knows exactly where players will cut to or spot up from, he is as good a pick and roll passer I've ever seen, he knows where his teammates like the ball, he knows how to attract the defense and dish, he's great at it all. Kobe is a very skilled passer, but he just doesn't have all the tools of a great playmaker to make those decisions consistently over the course of a 48min game. Maybe for stretches, but not for an entire game, let alone season.

 

And Kobe may need all those things just to eclipse 7APG...Bron was able to do that with virtually no shooters and Big Z and Drew Gooden as his 2nd and 3rd options. Now he has 3pt shooters and he's averaging nearly 9 a game. And less than 3.5 TO's.

You're still doing it. Teams still doubled Bryant like crazy, much more than they have ever done with LeBron. In fact, other than Shaq, I can say that no other player has faced more double and triple-teams than Kobe. Nobody will double LeBron on the perimeter, and that makes it more convenient for him to drive and kick it out. Auto assist, if his teammate knocks down the open shot.

 

If you think about it, eight assists for someone like him isn't shocking. Two jumpers converting his passes into points each quarter. He makes shots easier for his teammates to hit, and he has ALWAYS had teammates that can make open shots, catch passes, know how to play in an organized offense, and that depend on other players to score.

 

If you want a championship-caliber team with just one superstar, take a dominant slasher and stack shooters around him, and make sure they can all play defense. Then you'll see LeBron backing up 40 feet from the rim, going isolation, then driving and drawing a double in the paint, and having two wide-open teammates. Every time. Same exact thing. Same thing happened with Iverson in 2001, but teams weren't afraid to double Iverson before he got into the paint, which is why you saw more turnovers.

 

LeBron is the best playmaking forward to ever play the game, or right there with Bird. Good for him. That doesn't make him the best ever, which is what Durant was talking about in the first place.

[Nitro]

We aren't talking all fronts, we're talking strictly A/TO ratio, or so I thought.

 

And I asked that about Iverson because you just told us a bit ago that there were NO seasons where he averaged seven assists and less than four turnovers, but you were wrong.

 

Quote me where I said Iverson never had a season where he averaged 7APG and less than 4 TO's. First I said the only other players I could think of besides Kobe, at least in the last decade or so, to average over 4 TO's for a season was Wade, AI and Francis. Then I said, "In the seasons Iverson averaged 7APG he was averaging 4.5 TO's as well." I did not mean literally EVERY season, but I showed you 5 seasons of him averaging over 4 TO's per game as opposed to you showing me only 2 seasons where he averaged 7APG and less than 4 TO's. To use AI as an example of my logic being flawed is ridiculous because AI exceeded LeBron's career-high in TO's 7x, meanwhile for his career averaging only 6.2APG to LeBron's 7.0APG.

 

Yeah, Michael Jordan (who was an excellent and underrated playmaker, by the way) had just three seasons over six assists per game in the 14-15 seasons he played (remove the injury season and his returning season, I guess), and the season he averaged his eight, he also threw over 3.5 TO...but hey, no reason to compare, I guess.

 

First off, the fact that MJ had 3 seasons where his APG excceeded Kobe's career high (6.0APG), including his 8APG year, and his career high in TO's was only 3.6 kind of kills whatever arguement you're trying to make.

 

In the seasons MJ averaged over 4.5APG (10 overall), he averaged 5.8APG to go with 2.9 TO's. Kobe has had 11 seasons of 4.5APG or more, averaging 5.2APG in those seasons to go with 3.1 TO's. And MJ was not the playmaker LeBron was either, so I really don't understand your point.

 

You're still doing it. Teams still doubled Bryant like crazy, much more than they have ever done with LeBron. In fact, other than Shaq, I can say that no other player has faced more double and triple-teams than Kobe. Nobody will double LeBron on the perimeter, and that makes it more convenient for him to drive and kick it out. Auto assist, if his teammate knocks down the open shot.

 

Teams don't double LeBron as often on the perimeter because he can kill you with the pass. If you jam and trap Kobe, he doesn't have the court vision being 6'6'' to look over double teams like LeBron does, which is where a lot of his TO's come from. LeBron is just like how T-Mac was in that sense...T-Mac's assists and TO's were always marvelous for his position because he had the court vision and passing ability to make cross court passes over double teams to guys like Battier for the open 3.

 

If you think about it, eight assists for someone like him isn't shocking. Two jumpers converting his passes into points each quarter. He makes shots easier for his teammates to hit, and he has ALWAYS had teammates that can make open shots, catch passes, know how to play in an organized offense, and that depend on other players to score.

 

He has always had teammates who could knock down open shots? He was averaging over 7APG with only one player on his team hitting over 1 3PM per game, and that player shot below 35% from 3.

 

If you want a championship-caliber team with just one superstar, take a dominant slasher and stack shooters around him, and make sure they can all play defense. Then you'll see LeBron backing up 40 feet from the rim, going isolation, then driving and drawing a double in the paint, and having two wide-open teammates. Every time. Same exact thing. Same thing happened with Iverson in 2001, but teams weren't afraid to double Iverson before he got into the paint, which is why you saw more turnovers.

 

LeBron is the best playmaking forward to ever play the game, or right there with Bird. Good for him. That doesn't make him the best ever, which is what Durant was talking about in the first place.

 

The difference between AI and LeBron in terms of playmaking, since you can't seem to get off the AI thing, is that 1) LeBron is 6'8'' and even in the worst of jams can look over the defense and find an open shooter or slasher cross court, 2) LeBron plays off-ball extremely well, helping to set picks and help orchestrate the offense without having the ball in his hands. AI was ineffective without the basketball in his hands, 3) LeBron always has a purpose when he is making a move. AI made moves just to make moves, and his dancing would not only stagnate the offense but often cause himself TO's, and 4) LeBron's simply a more skilled passer than AI was.

 

Much of the differences between AI and LeBron is why you can't double LeBron like you do Kobe. It's either he's going to the rim and finishing/dishing off, taking a contested jumper in an iso, or passing over the double team on the perimeter to hit the wide open player. Due to his amazing court vision and IQ to run an offense force defenses to pick their poison. Back in 06-07 or even 07-08 you could find some success with letting him take contested jumpers and cutting off driving lanes and smothering teammates. Now his jumper is good enough where he can kill you no matter which route to defend him you take.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Nitro1118

[Real Deal]

Quote me where I said Iverson never had a season where he averaged 7APG and less than 4 TO's.

In the seasons Iverson averaged 7APG he was averaging 4.5 TO's as well. And shooting a crappy percentage from the floor. Don't compare him to LeBron as a playmaker, that is a joke.

It's clear as day, right there.

 

And I wasn't getting off the Iverson talk because your best excuse as to why LeBron is a better playmaker than Bryant was that his A/TO ratio was so spectacular...and going by the numbers, I gave you Iverson's two seasons where he did what you are praising. By the numbers, you're wrong.

 

And again, he's probably not the only player I could use, but I'm too lazy to look up anyone else, because the discussion is really irrelevant to begin with. Apples and oranges, no matter how you swing it.

[Nitro]

It's clear as day, right there.

 

Huh? What I made was a blanket statement, and going by average Iverson had 5 seasons of 4+ TO's compared to only two 7APG+ seasons where he didn't give the ball up 4x. You took it way too literally.

 

And I wasn't getting off the Iverson talk because your best excuse as to why LeBron is a better playmaker than Bryant was that his A/TO ratio was so spectacular...and going by the numbers, I gave you Iverson's two seasons where he did what you are praising. By the numbers, you're wrong.

 

In AI's entire career he only had 2 high-assist seasons where he didn't go over 4 TO's. And as I also stated in my previous post, in 7 of AI's seasons he notched more TO's than LeBron did in his career-worst. I'm not just using individual seasons like you are with AI. AI and being efficient handling the ball was an abberation. Meanwhile I know you'll flip that around and say Kobe's 4.1 TO's in 04-05 was an abberation, but he's only averaged more than 5.5APG twice in his career, and both times averaged 3.5 TO's per game or more...and yes, one of those seasons was in the Phil Jackson triangle with a chmpionship-caliber team built around him, so don't give me the 'his teammates were crap' or 'he was learning a new offense' arguements.

 

And I can go through x's and o's with you like I did in my last post explaining why LeBron is the better playmaker, and I have throughout this topic. But really it all shows itself in the stats, which OVERWHELMINGLY favor LeBron in the playmaking area.

 

And again, he's probably not the only player I could use, but I'm too lazy to look up anyone else, because the discussion is really irrelevant to begin with. Apples and oranges, no matter how you swing it.

 

Efficiency as an elite player should be transcedent regardless of a few differences. Both Kobe and Bron are wing players, both have been on very good and very bad teams, etc... The difference is that through the good and bad, LeBron's numbers as a playmaker have stayed steady and extremely efficient. NEVER inefficient. Kobe's numbers have remained relatively inefficient in that regard to the better passing wing-players in the league (T-Mac, Joe Johnson, and in the last few years D-Wade).

[Real Deal]

LOL, for the last time, I'm not saying LeBron isn't the better playmaker, but you're so adamant about proving it, you're blasting Kobe any which way you can...so there's no point in me going any further with this. I gave you a couple of seasons where Iverson seemed to be an excellent playmaker according to his A/TO ratio, but you gave me conditionals, for some reason. Then you tell me Kwame shouldn't have gotten the ball at all, and that's Bryant's fault for passing it to him. You say that Odom and Butler were sufficient enough, yet they actually create their own offense, and have been doing it their entire careers...but then you tell me that Ilgauskas and Gooden weren't shooters, and that LeBron didn't have any three-point threats. You don't care to discuss Chucky Atkins and how much he handled the ball (and how many assists he averaged), don't care about anything other than LeBron's A/TO ratio.

 

What's the point? No point. If I wanted to prove that Kobe was the greatest scorer of all-time, I'm not going to dropkick everyone else in the teeth in doing so.

[Nitro]

LOL, for the last time, I'm not saying LeBron isn't the better playmaker, but you're so adamant about proving it, you're blasting Kobe any which way you can...so there's no point in me going any further with this. I gave you a couple of seasons where Iverson seemed to be an excellent playmaker according to his A/TO ratio, but you gave me conditionals, for some reason. Then you tell me Kwame shouldn't have gotten the ball at all, and that's Bryant's fault for passing it to him. You say that Odom and Butler were sufficient enough, yet they actually create their own offense, and have been doing it their entire careers...but then you tell me that Ilgauskas and Gooden weren't shooters, and that LeBron didn't have any three-point threats. You don't care to discuss Chucky Atkins and how much he handled the ball (and how many assists he averaged), don't care about anything other than LeBron's A/TO ratio.

 

What's the point? No point. If I wanted to prove that Kobe was the greatest scorer of all-time, I'm not going to dropkick everyone else in the teeth in doing so.

 

I didn't give you conditionals regarding AI...I acknowledged he was a pretty good playmaker, but his overall body of work shows he was inefficient in that regard. Not only did I use stats, but I explained why. Just like I explained why LBJ is a better playmaker than Kobe on top of the overwhelming statistics that prove the same. I never said Kobe shouldn't have passed to Kwame, but we all know he has stones for hands, so don't throw bullet passes to him. I didn't say only Butler and Odom were sufficient enough, but Kobe also had far more 3pt shooters than LeBron back when LeBron first came up (which you consider to be the primary source of his assists) and I proved that with undeniable statistics. As for Atkins handling the ball and his assists, it doesn't excuse the inefficiency of Kobe's passing numbers, and as I summed it up before...if Atkins was on a team with LeBron, do you think he'd be doing nearly as much ballhandling?

 

My biggest problem with your arguements, and most Lakers fans for that matter, is that when Kobe is not proficient in a certain regard when comparing him to another player, there are always excuses and conditionals. His teammates didn't do this, Phil didn't do that, he had this injury, he's primarily a shooter so 'enter certain stat where he is deficient', etc... And sometimes those excuses are completely valid, but the problem is that you don't give the other player the same considerations. For example to use Kobe's teammates as the primary excuse for his 4+ TO's (which IMO are inexcusable if you are going to average only 6APG and not constantly get to the rim), yet ignore and even over-inflate the offensive albatross LeBron had his first few years is just biased and completely misguided.

 

But I am glad you stopped this debate though, it was getting tiring lol.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Nitro1118