This Celtic team is as good as '08 team???

[kingfish]

So because Kobe shuts down Westbrook, it means he will shut down Rondo?

No all it means is that Kobe shut down a point guard who is much tougher to guard so theres good reason to believe that he will have success in guarding Westbrook.

 

Just because something happened in another series doesnt mean it will happen in this one. But we use evidence and facts from what we already know to make hypothesis based on what will happen next. Do you see how this works now?

[Multi-Billionaire]

^Westbrook is more talented offensively... he's one of my fave players, but he is no smarter than Rondo. This was Westbrook's first playoffs, and like they all like to say playoffs is a different beast.

 

Rondo attacks what the defense gives him while Westbrook is a go-to scorer after KD. It's a different role, Rondo can go crazy like 30 pts, 15 assists, 19 rebounds, attacking in different ways. If his teammates got it going, he can settle for less numbers but still be effective and run the offense like an elite PG. Almost like Nash without the jumpshot. Westbrook is all about speed and attacking on the break, you take it out, and the majority of his damage is null. Westbrook will get better, but right now Rondo is the smarter player... at least in the playoffs. He has won a ring... he knows what it takes to run this team in the playoffs. Guarding Rondo will be trickier than guarding Westbrook... Rondo knows how to attack you in more ways than Westbrook does.

 

 

I believe the 08 Celtics were a more disciplined group defensively... but this '10 group can actually be a better defensive team than that. They can sleep defensively in possessions as we saw in Game 4 and 5 in this Magic series... it's dangerous to the Celtics... they can't afford to do that facing the Lakers. However, as inconsistent as they can be defensively, they're still a cohesive group who takes defense seriously... and that is good news... that's like J.R. Smith who takes coach's message seriously. He'd be a multiple All Stars... but too bad it's not meant to be.

 

I believe, overall, these Celtics can even be better than the 08 team. They're definitely more talented with the addition of Nate... who brings a very different dynamic the Lakers have to game plan against because Nate is talented to go outside the system on the offensive end... and catch the Lakers off guard by playing outside the system once in a while... like what we saw in Game 6.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Snake

[Real Deal]

You're telling me that Kobe won't be able to defend Rondo? Come on now.

 

Our two best defensive players (and two of the best in the NBA) are defending the Celtics' two best overall players, in Pierce and Rondo. Garnett is hurt...barely producing in the ECF, having trouble rebounding.

 

If Boston wants to win, it will be up to Ray Allen, simple as that. I really don't think Ray Allen has enough in him to dominate the Lakers every night, to the point where it negates what Gasol will do to Garnett...not to mention the fact that you expect Ray to challenge Kobe when the ball is in Bryant's hands. Ray is in his mid 30's, not 25.

 

If we lose this series, it'll be because Bynum doesn't do a damn thing, and either Rondo or Pierce dominates. I can say for sure Bynum will struggle (unless he's faking it), but there's no way I'm going to say Rondo lights Bryant up, and I would be shocked if Pierce dropped 30 against Artest, unless he puts him in foul trouble.

 

Today, Phoenix is a bigger concern...and not because we're still in a series with them, but because we don't play as fast, and their bench shoots way too many damn threes. Boston won't run up and down the court the entire game, unless Nate plays 30 minutes...and he won't.

 

I'm not saying Boston sucks. I'm not saying it will be an easy series. But...with Kobe and Gasol, and now Fisher playing the way he is, I'm confident we have the pieces to take them out in six or seven, especially now that we hold home court.

[Multi-Billionaire]

^But you're talking as if Boston doesn't have enough offense to beat the Lakers... am I right? "Kobe will stop Rondo, and they will have to have Ray step up offensively."

 

But, it's not their offense you should worry about, it's their defense. It's what fuels their offense... as cheeky as it sounds... having bball knowledge as you do, you should know. Great defense gives confidence to players to perform on the offensive end... he still averages 16.8 ppg on 42 3PT% in this playoffs... the C's will like Lakers to overlook him "he's old" and he will still light it up.

[Real Deal]

^But you're talking as if Boston doesn't have enough offense to beat the Lakers... am I right? "Kobe will stop Rondo, and they will have to have Ray step up offensively."

 

But, it's not their offense you should worry about, it's their defense. It's what fuels their offense... as cheeky as it sounds... having bball knowledge as you do, you should know. Great defense gives confidence to players to perform on the offensive end... he still averages 16.8 ppg on 42 3PT% in this playoffs... the C's will like Lakers to overlook him "he's old" and he will still light it up.

Great defense doesn't make a team a good offensive team. You should know that with the Charlotte Bobcats. They were a top five defensive team this year, yet they were ran out of the building in four games by the Magic.

 

And as good as Orlando was on the defensive end, they couldn't produce enough offensively to beat Boston...granted that Boston's defense is arguably the best in the league, that's really no different than the situation Orlando found themselves in against Charlotte.

 

The main difference? Match-ups. Boston took out the Cavaliers because they took away the three-point shot, and forced LeBron to do it all. They took out the Magic because they took away the three, and forced Dwight to do it all.

 

I don't see why that's so difficult to figure out. The Celtics would sweep Phoenix in the Finals for that very reason, assuming the Suns would beat LA in these next two games.

 

However, the Lakers don't want the three. They are in the bottom half of the league shooting it, and they want to go away from it. Matching up to Boston? We CAN lock down their two main players, with two of the best defenders in the NBA...something that the Heat, Magic and Cavaliers didn't have.

 

You keep talking about defense, but you're ignoring ours. Garnett is going to struggle against Pau. He's not Amare offensively, and he's not Shaq physically.

 

I've told everyone at TLN that there's still a chance we lose the NBA Finals, but you're saying five games, and you're saying Phoenix would do better against Boston. Unless there's a huge breakdown by Kobe, or someone gets injured, that's not going to happen.

 

Of all people here, I would expect a Nuggets fan to recognize how important match-ups are, because you just ran into a very limited Jazz team in the first round, the same team we swept in the second. There's a reason for that.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Regarding Nuggets...

 

I don't care how good the Lakers are right now... if you take Phil Jackson out of the equation, I don't care if Kobe, Fisher have 4 champs in that triangle... and Brian Shaw, Black guy, and Hamblen are all there... you WILL NOT be the same without the head coach.

 

I'll take this match up right here: Nuggets without Billups (but with George Karl) vs. Lakers without Phil Jackson... I'll take that match up any day. There's a reason why we were 2nd in the L when GK was still on the sideline and had to limp to the postseason playing .500 ball for the rest of 26 regular season games. Don't be a Jazz fan who says head coach

doesn't make that big of a difference... it does. At least if you're one of the championship contenders in the L.

 

I said to Utah fans (initially going to their subforum wanting to congratulate them for winning the series, but they had to see non-sense things like "the wrong person died in the car accident (J.R.)" makes me think WTF is wrong with these Jazz fans, they just won a series and they said things like that) that Lakers were going to sweep them. I actually supported the Lakers in that series... because I knew Jazz were nothing to begin with. I am sure had we had Karl for the whole frickin season, we would have whooped them in 5. They talked big like they were clearly the better team made me sick, yes they were the better team, but "better" because "we were missing GK". You can't take that away.

 

Similarly if they had had to take away Jerry Sloan and I don't care if the replacement coach is the best young prodigy coach... they will not be the same team... usually for the worse. Sloan does 1000000000000x more for that team by just sitting there with his stupor, old man tired looks... than a young talent coach would. That's leadership... that's what we were missing in George's absence.

 

 

---

 

 

Regarding Charlotte... Matter of fact is, the Magic played even better defense than them. For the series the Bobcats averaged 85.5 ppg (down from 95.3 ppg in the regular season). You can't compare Ray Allen, KG, Pierce to Stephen Jackson, Gerald Wallace and Tyson Chandler.

 

Yes, the Bobcats played great defense but they were not a good offensive team to begin with. On the other hand, if you turn the ball over to the Celtics, you're going to pay on the other end. With Charlotte, if you turn it over, maybe they will score, maybe they will not, again they're not a great offensive team that executes at high efficiency rate to begin with (unlike the Celtics).

 

 

KG has the ability to draw Gasol out up to 22 feet... which is still well within his range. Taking Gasol away from the paint is obviously key offensively for the Celtics to let Pierce, Ray, and Rondo penetrate because Bynum will almost certainly be in foul trouble. The Lakers defense are very good, but Celtics defense is great which would exasperate the Lakers in a hurry. The Lakers will switch from having this defense first mindset to worrying about their offense... say after 1 quarter. And I will enjoy my popcorn chanting BEAT LA BEAT LA

 

I wanna see Boston fans in LA, particularly Bill Simmons. He's gonna be the only one wearing green.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Snake

[Real Deal]

1) Denver wouldn't have beaten the Lakers, coach or no coach. They didn't do it last year, despite what you predicted, they were swept before that, and this year's match-up would've been even worse for the Nuggets. Phil Jackson doesn't call plays. They are freelanced by our offense. There was a reason why Jackson considered coaching JUST the home games a couple of years back...the assistants (would've been Rambis) can just sit there and watch Kobe and Fish coach their teammates on the court, which is what happens every game.

 

Phil is there for the ego management and big man development. This team is fine.

 

2) Yeah, Garnett will draw Gasol out. So did Amare. Same with Boozer, and especially Jeff Green. Garnett isn't Amare on offense. Not a big deal.

 

Pierce and Rondo penetrate? Again, they have the two best perimeter defenders on them. What makes you think they will get into the lane that easily? Ray Allen will be too busy running off screens. If he is forced to be a playmaker (something Rivers will not agree to roll with), Boston loses in five games. They aren't that dumb.

[Multi-Billionaire]

1.) Last year and this year were two different situations, players, and ball clubs. I believe we had what it takes this year to beat the Lakers... but when you lose a leader, it's like a ship losing its captain, the captain is there just being a presence... trust me when you've bought in leadership, presence is important. Obviously, Lakers have bought in Phil's leadership, just like us having bought in GK's leadership. You take him out of your team, his absence will impact on the team severely. You thought Lakers would be just fine without PJ, that's laughable. It never happened to the Lakers, so you never know. But it might have once in the lockout 1999 season when Kurt Rambis took over when Del was fired. Rambis had this calm personality, so the Lakers players liked him, even Rodman... then they rolled to 10 straight wins I believe, and then when things began to falter, Rambis turned into a hard core guy and one report says he threw a chair around and against the wall in the lockerroom. Guys lose respect for him and they were swept by Spurs in second round. The same kind of leadership issue happened there... leadership has to be consistent, like Phil's constant calmness in dire situations, or Gentry's "okay?" voice which is annoying at times but has that calming effect and more importantly he's consistent with it. And Rambis was not, he tried to change from this calm guy to a hard core guy and the team lost its sense of direction. The same thing happens when you take away a coach like Karl from Nuggets team... the absence of his presence, his leadership hurt this Nuggets team the most.

 

Whatever you believe man, I really believe Afflalo would be the single biggest difference in a Lakers series... you will watch next year.

 

 

2.) Amare is not KG either... who can shoot 22 footers effectively. Amare's range is more like 15-20 footers. He will be the big difference when Celtics struggle to score. I can see 2-3 wide open 22 footer makes by KG every game for this series, and it will open things up for the Celtics and Phil will blast Gasol on it, count on it, you hear it here first.

 

I'm not saying Pierce and Rondo would penetrate easily... but Gasol out of paint would definitely things up. If Kobe is on Rondo, you bet Allen will take Fisher to school. Fisher is strong, but he can't expect to flagrant foul someone just because he can't stop him from scoring. Allen is also savvy at running off screens and the slightest space and he'll shoot... given size difference Fisher can ill afford to lose him on screens. I think it'll be a big dilemma for Lakers, sure you want to put Kobe on Rondo to slow him down, but you're gonna put Fisher on Ray? That's a huge mismatch there. Ray's outside shooting, like KG's 22 footers, will also open things up for guys like Pierce and Tony Allen to penetrate.

[Real Deal]

Yeah, I know...Fisher is a scrub who has defended Deron Williams and Steve Nash so far this postseason. And yes, Arron Afflalo can most certainly lock of a healthy Kobe Bryant, especially after Bryant has dropped 30+ in 10 of his last 11 playoff games. And of course, Denver would be in the NBA Finals if it wasn't for George Karl missing the playoffs.

 

Don't really know what else to say to you.

[Multi-Billionaire]

So I don't get it... you said Kobe will take Rondo... but now you're saying Fisher will take him now?

 

 

If there's such stat, since you're the master of stats, find one defender who did it more effectively against Kobe than Arron Afflalo. He has similar build as Kobe, he can keep him in front of him, he plays hard, yet clean defense that it's hard for refs to biasedly call against him and he'd be in foul trouble. In contrast, Dahntay Jones was dirty and he was always in foul trouble. Offensively, he shot 43 3PT% and he can also take it to the hole when the defense bites. He has mid range game that are not so known by opponents.

[Real Deal]

So I don't get it... you said Kobe will take Rondo... but now you're saying Fisher will take him now?

 

 

If there's such stat, since you're the master of stats, find one defender who did it more effectively against Kobe than Arron Afflalo. He has similar build as Kobe, he can keep him in front of him, he plays hard, yet clean defense that it's hard for refs to biasedly call against him and he'd be in foul trouble. In contrast, Dahntay Jones was dirty and he was always in foul trouble. Offensively, he shot 43 3PT% and he can also take it to the hole when the defense bites. He has mid range game that are not so known by opponents.

I never said that about Fisher. I'm saying that he did fairly well against two elite guards in the NBA, and he hit big shots down the stretch. Asking him to defend a guy that doesn't attack the rim? He would do it, gladly.

 

Afflalo has only been a good defensive player for a year. He showed how well he could defend in the second half of the season in 2009, when he was with Detroit...and he got burn against Bryant that March, and Kobe lit him up for 30 on 56% shooting. Afflalo did well on Kobe in the first meeting of this season (Lakers-Nuggets), then Kobe torched him for 33 on 50% shooting in February.

 

Bryant was re-injured, and shot 3-17 at the end of February, third meeting...around the time he shot terribly against Dallas, Philly and Indiana (all of those games after he missed most of the month in February). Do you really want to give credit to Afflalo for that?

 

Afflalo is a very good defensive player, but you're out of your mind if you think that kid could hold Kobe in a playoff game, especially this season. Wes Matthews and Andrei Kirilenko thought the same, and once Bryant's knee healed up, so did Thabo Sefolosha and Kevin Durant (two players Kobe destroyed in that close-out game at Oklahoma City.

 

But...well, okay.

[Multi-Billionaire]

After the teams' Jan. 31 meeting, the Lakers' inability to contain Rajon Rondo was a concern. ESPN Los Angeles columnist Dave McMenamin wrote, "Quick, penetrating guards make the Lakers' defense fold faster than a Texas hold 'em player who draws a 2-4 unsuited." And L.A. coach Phil Jackson said Rondo "literally changed the ballgame in a matter of about four minutes" in the second quarter.

 

Rondo helped erase a 13-point Lakers lead in the blink of an eye with his at-will penetration. Rondo, who finished with 21 points, 12 assists, 5 rebounds and 2 steals, was covered primarily by Bryant rather than 35-year-old L.A. point guard Fisher, though Jackson made a point of blaming the whole team's defense for letting Rondo run wild.

 

Bryant wasn't around for the Feb. 18 rematch, but Rondo again had a major impact with 14 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds and 5 steals. How the Lakers contend with Rondo could be the most important aspect of the Finals.

 

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100529/daily-dime

 

 

Kobe takes him, it doesn't matter. Aaron Brooks... this year it's supposed to be Ty Lawson, but Karl had to go down... oh well.

[Real Deal]

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100529/daily-dime

 

 

Kobe takes him, it doesn't matter. Aaron Brooks... this year it's supposed to be Ty Lawson, but Karl had to go down... oh well.

As I stated in the game topic, Kobe messed up his ankle two days before the Boston game, third quarter against Philly...had tons of trouble in practice, shot poorly against Boston, and it was clear as day that he wasn't able to keep up with Rondo, at all.

 

Good try with the link, though. Rajon threw eight assists in the second quarter of that game, and that was around the time Kobe was getting treatment on the ankle from the bench, came back out on the court at the eight-minute mark in the second, and had to defend Rondo. I believe Rondo dropped 10-12 of his points in that quarter as well.

 

Yikes, dude.

[Sky]

No Karl clearly hurt Denver, they lacked the unified sense of purpose and focus that George can instill in them. They get too undisciplined without him and start sniping at each other for playing solo ball. That said even with Karl they lose as KMart wasn't close to 100% and that compromised their defense too severely. Denver's best chance was last year. With Karl in poor health and Chauncey getting older they'll struggle to return to their 2009 level.

 

Fish on Ray Allen is better than Fish on Rondo. Ray will do his damage off screens, what Fisher needs to do is a better job of keeping Ray off the glass. Allen's rebounding hurt LA in 2008.

[Multi-Billionaire]

^Yeah... too bad all of the assistants (Welsch, Iske, Moshley, Augmon) are all considered young so it's a no brainer to pick Dantley out of the bunch, simply because he is the oldest among the assistants.

 

I wouldn't say it's a bad move, he is our best card... but one huge drawback with Dantley is he is not a very vocal person and as a head coach, you can't have a laid back attitude like that. When he felt the pressure and started to be a bit hard core and do some yelling, that's when players started to tune him out consciously or subconsciously.

 

Obviously, AD was thrown into the fire, and what he did for the Nuggets was still great nevertheless... any coach, even those experienced ones would struggle taking the reigns of a #2 seed in the West expected to contend for the title. It's pressure just thinking "would players listen to me or not?". He did a great job, but his "great" was not enough.

[Sħãlïq™]

probably better than 08 for the most part...rondo is BEASTING and they got tony allen, glen davis and sheed off the bench playin fairly well

 

in 08 it was mostly eddie house and leon powe

and don't forget that guy that went to NOH.. James Posey.

[Warren2ThaG]

and don't forget that guy that went to NOH.. James Posey.

 

and that monster PJ Brown