If Kobe wins no. 5 this year, where would he rank all time?

[The Regime]

I saw this topic up on TLN, and I wanted to see what you guys thought Laker bias aside.Discuss.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Confidence

[YugoRocketsFan]

Not 1st.

[Kobe24]

I would say top 10 for sure, maybe top 5. Depending on how he finishes off his career after this year. You can say he had Shaq for 3 years and Gasol for 2, but no player has ever really won it alone.

[Poe]

So far, his prime is the most skilled and best all-around player of all time. Team championships are irrelevant.

[Jammin]

I saw this topic up on TLN, and I wanted to see what you guys thought Laker bias aside.Discuss.

So you posted it on a Laker-heavy forum in the Lakers subforum? lol

 

But really, I'd put him in top 3 guards, top 10-15 all time.

[Warren2ThaG]

crazy if he wins one this year then next year for 3peat.

 

and it might be like this

 

Ariza, won it with him

Artest, won it with him

Bosh, won it with him

 

phil jackson, yup

phil jackson, yup

phil jackson, no

[CaliCurbStomppa]

I think hes already in top 5 right now? Hes one of the most dominated player to ever play the game

[Legacy]

Second best SG of all time right now. Won't pass Jordan till he gets at least six.

 

As for all-time players, he is top ten right now. IMO, he will be in the top five if the Lakers win it all this year.

[ChosenOne]

Second best SG of all time right now. Won't pass Jordan till he gets at least six.

 

As for all-time players, he is top ten right now. IMO, he will be in the top five if the Lakers win it all this year.

 

+1

[EastCoastNiner]

He's already the best player of all-time.

 

I value being the "greatest" and being the "best" as two totally different things. Michael Jordan has more hardware, so you can say he is "greater", but he is not better than Kobe Bryant.

 

MJ is easily the most over-rated player ever, and last time we debated this none of you would post in the thread because you knew you were wrong.

 

 

Kobe Bryant>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MJ.

[ballorama]

I thought he was a top 10 player as of now, if he wins #5.. he'll be even closer to top 5 status, i think he'll be it in the end no matter what.

[NomarFachix]

"The notion I'm old and I won't figure things out. That's the part that's really funny to me. Like I said, they should know me better"

[Real Deal]

Like I said on TLN, greatness is a combination of hardware (championships and other awards), individual accomplishments, and overall player ability.

 

Kobe is JUST OUTSIDE of the top five greatest players of all-time. Four rings and fewer MVP and Finals MVP awards set him outside of Jordan, Magic, Bird, and Kareem...and if I'm not taking into consideration the type of players, and number of teams, there were in Wilt's era, he's ahead of Bryant as well. If I do consider the lack of competition in that era, Kobe is #5 on the list.

 

As far as overall player abilities, Kobe ranks #1a, and Jordan is #1b. It's that close. Bryant has more ways to score the ball and a better post game, Jordan is a bit better on defense BUT it's really only because Kobe plays his own zone defense. When locked in, Bryant is as good as MJ on defense.

 

As of two seasons ago, I wouldn't have said Kobe is the better overall player...but things definitely changed. Bryant did exactly what Mike did when he lost his athleticism, and combining that with the things I mentioned in the previous paragraph (and Kobe's extra range on his shot), I can say Jordan is still the greatest player, but he's not the most skilled anymore.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Kobe might have 4 rings, but he still wasnt the main piece in those 3 championship rings, and as of now he only has 1 finals mvp, and has had 5-6 spectacular seasons while Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Kareem played great for almost their entire career, have had many rings, and were the leaders of their team the entire time, Kobe is given too much credit for these last 5 years because he hasnt had much competition.

[Real Deal]

Kobe might have 4 rings, but he still wasnt the main piece in those 3 championship rings, and as of now he only has 1 finals mvp, and has had 5-6 spectacular seasons while Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Kareem played great for almost their entire career, have had many rings, and were the leaders of their team the entire time, Kobe is given too much credit for these last 5 years because he hasnt had much competition.

Shaq led the Heat in 2006? I guess I didn't watch basketball that season.

 

You can talk all you want about Kobe not having a major hand in all three of those first rings, but the fact is, you still can't give me a "Robin" that put up anything CLOSE to 28.5 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.7 SPG in a season (second ring) or 25.2 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.2 SPG in the third championship ring...not to mention he took 20 FGA per game the second run, over 23 FGA the third, 46% FG or better both times.

 

Or his playoff numbers...

 

2000-2001 Playoffs: 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG

2001-2002 Playoffs: 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG (and this was through injury, funny enough)

 

Similar to LeBron's 25 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG when he got into the Finals in 2007, as the leader of his team.

 

Similar to Jordan's 31 PPG, 6 RPG, 8 APG when he won his first championship, or his 31/5/4 in the fourth run, 31/8/5 in the fifth, 32/5/4 in the sixth.

 

Sure looks to me like Kobe was much, much more than a second fiddle. Until you give me numbers proving otherwise, I guess there's nothing else to debate.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Shaq led the Heat in 2006? I guess I didn't watch basketball that season.

 

You can talk all you want about Kobe not having a major hand in all three of those first rings, but the fact is, you still can't give me a "Robin" that put up anything CLOSE to 28.5 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.7 SPG in a season (second ring) or 25.2 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.2 SPG in the third championship ring...not to mention he took 20 FGA per game the second run, over 23 FGA the third, 46% FG or better both times.

 

Or his playoff numbers...

 

2000-2001 Playoffs: 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG

2001-2002 Playoffs: 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG (and this was through injury, funny enough)

 

Similar to LeBron's 25 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG when he got into the Finals in 2007, as the leader of his team.

 

Similar to Jordan's 31 PPG, 6 RPG, 8 APG when he won his first championship, or his 31/5/4 in the fourth run, 31/8/5 in the fifth, 32/5/4 in the sixth.

 

Sure looks to me like Kobe was much, much more than a second fiddle. Until you give me numbers proving otherwise, I guess there's nothing else to debate.

 

I said Shaq was the leader for ALMOST his entire career, for the first 13 or so years w/e it is. He obviously cant be a leader when he is in his mid to late 30s. Kobe did play a major part but I still consider Shaq the main piece.

[Real Deal]

I said Shaq was the leader for ALMOST his entire career, for the first 13 or so years w/e it is. He obviously cant be a leader when he is in his mid to late 30s. Kobe did play a major part but I still consider Shaq the main piece.

Nah, you actually stated this:

 

Kobe might have 4 rings, but he still wasnt the main piece in those 3 championship rings, and as of now he only has 1 finals mvp, and has had 5-6 spectacular seasons

Five or six spectacular seasons? So those numbers I posted weren't spectacular enough?

 

Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Kareem played great for almost their entire career, have had many rings, and were the leaders of their team the entire time

So, again, Shaq was the leader of the 2006 Heat? Kareem led the 1988 championship Laker team with 15 PPG and 6 RPG? He led the previous championship Lakers team with 18 PPG and 7 RPG?

 

Kobe is given too much credit for these last 5 years because he hasnt had much competition.

So why isn't he getting enough credit for the previous five years, when he was putting up nearly 30 in the playoffs, with much better rebounding and assist numbers?

 

This is usually the problem with people that hate Kobe Bryant. They have to run straight to what Shaq did, yet they don't realize that Bryant has put up Jordan-like numbers in two of those championship runs.

 

Kobe, Phil and Shaq were all equally important to the dynasty. Kobe ran the offense, took the most shots, and scored almost as much as O'Neal, all while defending the best player on the floor, while both Kobe and Shaq didn't do a damn thing until Phil took over the team and put Kobe in charge of the triangle.

 

Facts are hard to work around. It's all right there.

[Hawks Fly High]

I said Shaq was the leader for ALMOST his entire career, for the first 13 or so years w/e it is. He obviously cant be a leader when he is in his mid to late 30s. Kobe did play a major part but I still consider Shaq the main piece.

 

 

but you didnt back this arguement up... Kobe is arguably top 5 material right now but if he can grab 2-3 more rings he can arguably be 1st or 2nd. but thats just my opinion

[Check my Stats]

Kobe will probably win more rings than MJ at this rate, this core is set to dominate for around half a decade if everyone stays healthy, and if they get Bosh

[YugoRocketsFan]

Five or six spectacular seasons? So those numbers I posted weren't spectacular enough?

 

 

So, again, Shaq was the leader of the 2006 Heat? Kareem led the 1988 championship Laker team with 15 PPG and 6 RPG? He led the previous championship Lakers team with 18 PPG and 7 RPG?

 

They are spectacular, but I still consider Shaq the MAIN piece, I am not saying Kobe wasnt important at all, I am not saying that Kobe had nothing to do with those rings, I am just saying that Shaq was the LEADER of that team. Well Kareem was probably a bad example, and I'll stick with my first statement when I said most, I stated the ALL thing at the end because I wasnt thinking.

 

So why isn't he getting enough credit for the previous five years, when he was putting up nearly 30 in the playoffs, with much better rebounding and assist numbers?

 

This is usually the problem with people that hate Kobe Bryant. They have to run straight to what Shaq did, yet they don't realize that Bryant has put up Jordan-like numbers in two of those championship runs.

 

Hes getting the credit, but as I stated above, Shaq was the one that was the leader at the time, I cant put it much simpler than that. I also dont hate Kobe Bryant.

 

Kobe, Phil and Shaq were all equally important to the dynasty. Kobe ran the offense, took the most shots, and scored almost as much as O'Neal, all while defending the best player on the floor, while both Kobe and Shaq didn't do a damn thing until Phil took over the team and put Kobe in charge of the triangle.

 

Facts are hard to work around. It's all right there.

 

Well if you put this way then you might as well include Robert Horry and Derek Fisher, but in my opinion, I see Shaq as the main piece, Kobe as the 2nd all-star (just as Gasol is for the Lakers), in terms of percentages, I'd say Shaq was a 30, Kobe 25, Phil 20, role players 25.

[YugoRocketsFan]

but you didnt back this arguement up... Kobe is arguably top 5 material right now but if he can grab 2-3 more rings he can arguably be 1st or 2nd. but thats just my opinion

 

Well I said if Kobe wins a ring he isnt #1, but I am sure that he is at least top 10.

[Real Deal]

The Kobe from the Lakers dynasty was no Gasol. Shaq and Kobe were the two best players in the NBA during that dynasty. Gasol isn't an MVP candidate.

 

In fact, Shaq and Kobe have a combined two MVP awards because, quite frankly, they both bumped each other out of the voting most of the time.

 

You couldn't replace any of them and still create a dynasty...that's how important those three were. Some would argue replacing Shaq with Duncan, some say Kobe with Carter, and some say Jackson with Popovich, but not three rings. Duncan wasn't as offensively dominant as Shaq, Carter was not the facilitator or defensive player Kobe was, and Popovich couldn't manage egos the way Phil did.

 

The numbers still give it away. If Jordan, LeBron and others were their teams' best players in both the regular season and the playoffs, Kobe gets the same treatment by following the same criteria. Scottie Pippen is an outstanding player, but he wasn't putting up 28-29 PPG with MJ, and it was Jordan who made his teammates better as well.

 

If anyone gets the short end of the stick, it's probably Phil...but I can't say those role players contributed to that dynasty as much as Shaq or Bryant, not even close. While they did hit big shots, they were almost all wide-open, and it was because both Kobe and Shaq were seeing doubles on the perimeter (#8) and in the paint (#34).

 

Dominant duos of THAT caliber don't have clear leaders. Because Bryant ran the offense, he led the team as much as Shaq...and with the shots he took (more than O'Neal) and the defensive assignments he had, Shaq did the dirty work on the boards and was giving LA their 25-30 a night as well, and it mimicked what the Lakers had in the early 80's, with both Magic and Kareem (before Kareem really started to decline).

[Nitro]

You can talk all you want about Kobe not having a major hand in all three of those first rings, but the fact is, you still can't give me a "Robin" that put up anything CLOSE to 28.5 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.7 SPG in a season (second ring) or 25.2 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.2 SPG in the third championship ring...not to mention he took 20 FGA per game the second run, over 23 FGA the third, 46% FG or better both times.

 

Or his playoff numbers...

 

2000-2001 Playoffs: 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG

2001-2002 Playoffs: 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG (and this was through injury, funny enough)

 

No one can name another Robin that was the caliber player that Kobe was in the 1st dynasty...but he was still Robin. And I find it odd you're using Kobe's post season stats to prove your point, yet fail to mention's Shaq's 31/15/3/3 on 56% shooting that he put up during the 1st 2 postseasons of the 3peat dynasty (3rd he averaged 29/13/3/3 on 53% shooting...slouch).

 

Kobe was the Lakers' lockdown defender, he was the primary facilitator, and he scored like Kobe has always been able to. But Shaq in the 3-peat was on another level of pure dominance. The offense ran through him in the post and just his presence meant an immediate double or triple team and all kinds of defensive nightmares. So yes, even though Kobe was extremely important and productive, it was Shaq's team.

[Real Deal]

No one can name another Robin that was the caliber player that Kobe was in the 1st dynasty...but he was still Robin. And I find it odd you're using Kobe's post season stats to prove your point, yet fail to mention's Shaq's 31/15/3/3 on 56% shooting that he put up during the 1st 2 postseasons of the 3peat dynasty (3rd he averaged 29/13/3/3 on 53% shooting...slouch).

 

Kobe was the Lakers' lockdown defender, he was the primary facilitator, and he scored like Kobe has always been able to. But Shaq in the 3-peat was on another level of pure dominance. The offense ran through him in the post and just his presence meant an immediate double or triple team and all kinds of defensive nightmares. So yes, even though Kobe was extremely important and productive, it was Shaq's team.

In other words, nobody else has done what Kobe did, but so what? Put him in that category anyway.

 

Shaq was Superman, Kobe was Batman. Take one out and try to replace them, and you don't get the dynasty. There should've been enough proof of that when Shaq and the Lakers were losing in the playoffs before Kobe took over the triangle.

 

Again, it's the toughest thing in the world to ignore the facts. No "Robin" has even come remotely close to those numbers Kobe put up, and no "Robin" has ever had as many responsibilities as Bryant (the ones that you listed, plus him shooting more shots than O'Neal in two of those seasons).

[kingfish]

Kobes 5th ring : Top 5 + greatest Laker of all time

Kobes 6th ring : Top 2, right behind MJ

Kobes 7th ring : GOAT