Pau Gasol = best big man in the league?

[Big Penny]

Dwight 18. 3 PGG

Pau 18.3 PPG

What the heck do you mean?

so whoever gets more points is a better offensive player? i guess Nene is better on offense than Rondo and Kidd then.

[Smitty]

so whoever gets more points is a better offensive player? i guess Nene is better on offense than Rondo and Kidd then.

 

You're comparing a big man to PGs.

[Erick Blasco]

Tim Duncan is well past his prime. Dirk Nowitzki just came off one of his best seasons. Horrible example.

 

So why are you using past stats to qualify Dirk if this is all about the here and now?

 

Do I think Dirk can be the 2nd option of a championship team? Hell yes, he came within 2 wins of winning a championship as a 1st option.

 

And lost that ring virtually by himself, after only getting to the Finals after a dumb foul by Manu Ginobili. He got to the Finals on the strength of that call and a defenseless Suns team, then proved he didn't have what it takes to knock off an elite team. He then lost to one of the worst Finals champions of all time. You can't name a team the past 20 years that was worse than Miami. Dirk let that team win four in a row.

 

And yes, he's essentially a jumpshooter...so what? He's one of the elite jumpshooters in the league, and unlike other pure jumpshooters he gets to the line 7-8x every single year. And despite being primarily a jumpshooter, it hasn't stopped him from averaging 26/11 for his career in the post-season on solid shooting percentages across the board.

 

Can you please look at the fourth quarter numbers of some of the playoff games he's played in? Look at his 4th quarters against the Spurs and Heat that year. Look at his fourth quarters against the Warriors the next year, and Denver last year.

 

Then tell me with a straight face that the best post scorer in the league is fundamentally worse than a great jump shooter. Then tell me with a straight face that Dirk can pass, handle, rebound, defend in all the aspects needed to play great defense, and rebound better than Dirk. Then remind me why Dirk is better than Gasol?

 

 

 

As I said, after Dirk you can make a great case for Gasol against any other big men. You can't simply use a playoff series 1-on-1 matchup to determine who the better player is though. Gasol was punked by Amare Stoudemire and Dirk Nowitzki in the postseason with the Grizzlies, getting swept both times and never grabbing over 7.5RPG. Dwight is the kind of player that even if his offensive game never evolves, his teams are always going to get deep into the postseason even as his supporting cast changes. As badly as the Celtics exposed his game, he still made a big impact with 22/11/3. I'll be the first to tell you he's one of the most overrated players in the league and not as great defensively as most claim him to be, but he's always going to be a bigger impact player than Gasol.

 

As for Yao, for years he had a horrible offensive cast and coach (JVG) to work with yet still got his 25PPG in relatively limited minutes (33-35 was the norm). I watched the Rockets religously from 2005-2009, and the only thing that ever stopped Yao was his foul-prone nature and stamina. When he had a bad game, it was usually because he'd get in foul trouble early and mentally would get taken out of the game. This started to change when he took over T-Mac's role as the team's go-to player, but nontheless it was what it was. Pau has more moves than Yao does, and slightly better range, but he also has more moves and range than a prime Shaq. When you're talking about a 7'6'' player with unbelievable touch and talent, the slightly better versatility Gasol offers doesn't mean much.

 

And yeah, I know it's unfair to expect Yao to come back the same player he was. But that's all we have to judge from at the moment. If I were to rank the top players coming into next season I wouldn't even list Yao because we don't know what to expect. But you were critiquing Yao as the player he was pre-injury, so I went along with it.

 

This year's Gasol wasn't punked by anybody in the playoffs, and this year's Gasol is who I argue is the best big man in the game. Nobody is arguing that Memphis Gasol was the best in the business.

 

And you have a different value system than I have. Getting deep in the playoffs against inferior competition, providing you have a title-caliber team, means nothing. The Lakers season is failure this year if they lose to Boston, as is Boston's. Orlando and Cleveland had failed seasons. Denver had a failed season. You don't get brownie points for going deep in the playoffs unless you overacheive like Phoenix did. Dwight didn't play hard the first three games of the series. You can't call yourself great and not play hard and find yourself down 3-0. Greatness can have a day off but never from a lack of effort.

 

Nice try labeling JVG as a horrible coach, when he's one of the best defensive postseason coaches of all time, and had awful rosters consisting of the brittle T-Mac, a soft Yao, and mediocre role players. Teams could double Yao for profit. He doesn't pass as well as Gasol. It's why, aside from a series against the defenseless 2004-05 Mavs, and a good series in the first round last year, his postseason stats are underwhelming.

 

With Gasol, you can't play him straight up, and you almost can't double him because his passing is so good.

 

 

Oh c'mon now...before the injury Bosh was the most dangerous offensive big man in the league. From October-February he was averaging 24.5PPG and grabbing 11.4RPG. Toronto was 29-23 before his injury. That was with Hedo Turkoglu having the worst year of his career and for the most part a team of scrubs/young talent. The team went 3-4 in his absence, and he came back from injury still not playing healthy. As a result, the team went AWOL and he's on the path to a new team this summer.

 

As for his defense, Bosh will never be the shot-blocking defensive presence that traditional big men are, but he showed in the 2008 Olympics how good he can be defensively. He was the team's best interior defender that Olympics, and showed his versatility in locking down many of the Euro big men that can take it outside. And unlike an Amare Stoudemire or Antawn Jamison, he cleans the glass among the best in the league. He's far from a defensive liability.

 

Who cares what you do from October to Feburary? From January to March, how many people thought the Celtics could win a title, and how many nitpickers were poking apart the Lakers?

 

The Raptors were the worst defensive team in the league this season. Not all of that is Bosh, obviously, but the guy's defense is just as bad all the other guys on the team. Bosh has too many plays where he loses focus, and doesn't have the repertoire of Gasol.

 

Of course Bosh, Yao, and Dirk are all really good, but this is Pau Gasol we're talking about. He's simply dominated all comers this postseason, and is a better defender.

 

 

Once again...c'mon now. Bosh is not the same player he was in 07-08, his last postseason appearance, just like Gasol isn't. And even though you criticize his series against the Magic, he still averaged 24/9/4 on 47% shooting...the kind of numbers Gasol never came close to in the postseason with the Grizzlies. And he won a game...something Gasol couldn't do in 3 straight postseasons.

 

And those games you mentioned from this year were literally RIGHT after he came back from weeks on the sideline. A few weeks later he put up 28/12/7 against the Warriors and 42/13 and 5 steals against Philly. And earlier in the year he put up 36/11/5 against the Kings.

 

Gasol has grown as a player. He's much more alert defensively, handles contact better, and has expanded his offensive game. I haven't seen much from Bosh to indicate that he's expanded his game more than Gasol has.

 

 

Bosh has never been the 2nd option so I'll hold off judging him in that role, although that is likely to change next season when he may team up with LeBron or D-Wade. But we have seen Gasol in the first option role and IMO Bosh's resume is clearly more impressive than Gasol's in that role. And as I mentioned before, if the 2008 Olympics are any indication, Bosh can do many of the little things that a great 2nd option has to do. I'm very excited to see him perform with a legit star and supporting cast playing around him. I think he'll flourish.

 

But forget the role, what have you seen from each as a player. The criticisms of Gasol all stem from his first option role as an inferior player. If he played the way he plays now on those Grizzlies, they'd win a playoff series, at least.

[Real Deal]

Just to hit on one thing: Gasol isn't THAT great at passing out of double teams. He was useless quite a bit against the Suns after they started playing zone and crowding the paint, and he struggled in Memphis for the same reasons as well.

[Warren2ThaG]

Just to hit on one thing: Gasol isn't THAT great at passing out of double teams. He was useless quite a bit against the Suns after they started playing zone and crowding the paint, and he struggled in Memphis for the same reasons as well.

 

Has to do with upper body strength and weak hands in my opinion.

[Check my Stats]

I'm very excited to see him perform with a legit star and supporting cast playing around him. I think he'll flourish.

 

Same. If Bosh ever got the chance to play on a championship squad where defense is actually a practiced concept, he would look much better defensively. He is no KG but he definitely would be a better defensive big man with more focus on that end of the floor from not only his coach but also the offensive load being taken off, he is definitely not a liability on most nights defensively, and while he is no anchor, neither is Pau Gasol. I think Bosh would flourish with an opportunity to play off others for once, rather than being force fed the ball on the right block 75% of the time.

 

Both of these players are best suited in complimentary roles, while Dwight Howard is a franchise player on a team winning 60 games year in year out, so I don't see what the argument is, Dwight is obviously the best big man in the NBA.

 

Outside of his nifty passing, I really don't see what Pau does much better than Bosh, call me blind or biased, I just don't.

Edited June 10, 2010 by travesy3

[Real Deal]

Outside of his nifty passing, I really don't see what Pau does much better than Bosh, call me blind or biased, I just don't.

He's a better defender, and a much better post player (meaning, legitimate post play). Bosh is more explosive and is better working with isolations, but if I'm looking for someone with post work, I go to Gasol every chance I get.

[Nitro]

So why are you using past stats to qualify Dirk if this is all about the here and now?

 

Because I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Dirk is still in his prime while Duncan is not.

 

And lost that ring virtually by himself, after only getting to the Finals after a dumb foul by Manu Ginobili. He got to the Finals on the strength of that call and a defenseless Suns team, then proved he didn't have what it takes to knock off an elite team. He then lost to one of the worst Finals champions of all time. You can't name a team the past 20 years that was worse than Miami. Dirk let that team win four in a row.

 

First off, who did the Mavs sweep in the first round of that postseason? Who did Dirk severely outplay that series as the #1 option? Right.

 

Secondly, you can't isolate that 1 foul call for being the reason the Mavs beat the Spurs. You can't make a big deal about that 1 foul (which WAS a foul) when Dirk scored 35pts, grabbed 15reb, dished 3ast and had 0 TO's. Dirk came up big and the Mavs beat the defending NBA champs...who according to you weren't an "elite team."

 

Lastly, Dirk didn't play well in the Finals, although blaming him for the loss is really pushing it. Dallas' offense didn't lose the series, Dallas' defense did. And that is solely on Avery Johnson's decision not to throw a double at Wade at all in the series, who had one of the greatest NBA Finals in NBA history. Dirk had a tough series, but it's not like Gasol has never had a tough series, including in the NBA Finals. And yes, I know Gasol is a different player than 2008, but so is KG and the Celtics.

 

Can you please look at the fourth quarter numbers of some of the playoff games he's played in? Look at his 4th quarters against the Spurs and Heat that year. Look at his fourth quarters against the Warriors the next year, and Denver last year.

Then tell me with a straight face that the best post scorer in the league is fundamentally worse than a great jump shooter. Then tell me with a straight face that Dirk can pass, handle, rebound, defend in all the aspects needed to play great defense, and rebound better than Dirk. Then remind me why Dirk is better than Gasol?

 

Dirk was #3 in clutch scoring last year in the league behind James and Bryant. In 08-09, he was #8. In 07-08, #3. He has hit the 8th most GW shots since 03-04 (playoffs included), and the 2nd most GW FT's. Gasol's clutch scoring since joining the Lakers is skewed because of Kobe (skewed meaning his #'s are way down, to be expected), but if you look at his 06-07 stats he was HORRIBLE in the clutch, scoring 35PPG less per 48min in the clutch and shooting 13% worse from the field, 40% worse from the FT line than Dirk. In 05-06 Dirk averaged 10PPG more per 48min with the same FG %, and shot 21% better from the FT line than Gasol.

 

So, knowing all that...do you HONESTLY think Gasol would have done any better in the clutch against any of those teams you mentioned? Do you REALLY think Gasol is anywhere near the clutch player Dirk is?

 

AND ONE LAST TIME- IT DOES NOT MATTER IF DIRK IS A JUMPSHOOTER!!! What hurts jumpshooters is they don't get to the FT line and shoot a low % from the field...Dirk gets to the line 7-8x a game and shoots 48% from the field, 42% from 3 and 90% from the line. He's one of the greatest scorers in NBA history, just look at the stats.

 

And you have a different value system than I have. Getting deep in the playoffs against inferior competition, providing you have a title-caliber team, means nothing. The Lakers season is failure this year if they lose to Boston, as is Boston's. Orlando and Cleveland had failed seasons. Denver had a failed season. You don't get brownie points for going deep in the playoffs unless you overacheive like Phoenix did. Dwight didn't play hard the first three games of the series. You can't call yourself great and not play hard and find yourself down 3-0. Greatness can have a day off but never from a lack of effort.

 

LeBron basically gave up against the Celtics as well...does that mean he's a worse player than D-Wade because Wade played hard all 5 games vs. the Celtics and his team over-achieved this season while LeBron's under-achieved?

 

Howard has led his team to the Finals and the ECF this season. He's a dominant player. He has quite a few holes in his game, but like the few other physical specimens like him in NBA history, his presence and freakish abilities negate his lack of skill in certain areas. Certainly nowhere near as versatile offensively as Pau, but only a fool would call Pau a better defender or rebounder. And Gasol has never been dominant enough offensively to cancel out the things Howard does so well. We can talk about all the what-if's with Pau, but he's proven nothing to show he's THAT dominant offensively to say his offense is more impactful than the difference between each of their rebounding and defense.

 

Nice try labeling JVG as a horrible coach, when he's one of the best defensive postseason coaches of all time, and had awful rosters consisting of the brittle T-Mac, a soft Yao, and mediocre role players. Teams could double Yao for profit. He doesn't pass as well as Gasol. It's why, aside from a series against the defenseless 2004-05 Mavs, and a good series in the first round last year, his postseason stats are underwhelming.

 

Thanks for putting words in my mouth...I said JVG was a horrible OFFENSIVE coach. Any Rockets fan from 2004-2007 will agree with that. I personally love JVG as a coach, but his offensive sets and principles are horrible.

 

Secondly, how do you in one breath say T-Mac was brittle and he had mediocre role players, and then question why doubling Yao was so effective 2 sentences later? Yao is an underrated passer...certainly no Pau Gasol, but it isn't nearly as big of a difference as you're making it out to be.

 

Lastly, you can talk about his underwhelming postseason stats, but for his career Gasol's are even more underwhelming. Your point?

 

Who cares what you do from October to Feburary? From January to March, how many people thought the Celtics could win a title, and how many nitpickers were poking apart the Lakers?

The Raptors were the worst defensive team in the league this season. Not all of that is Bosh, obviously, but the guy's defense is just as bad all the other guys on the team. Bosh has too many plays where he loses focus, and doesn't have the repertoire of Gasol.

Of course Bosh, Yao, and Dirk are all really good, but this is Pau Gasol we're talking about. He's simply dominated all comers this postseason, and is a better defender.

 

If Bosh was healthy for March, then I would gladly just use his entire season as an example. But the fact of that matter is that he averaged 27/12/3 on 55% shooting in January/February, and his team was 29-23. He got hurt, his team floundered, he came back too early, and the rest is history.

 

Bosh didn't have a tenth of the help Gasol had defensively. The year before Gasol left Memphis his team was the 2nd worst defensive team in the league...it doesn't prove much. Not to mention they are TOTALLY different players defensively. Gasol is taller, stronger and longer than Bosh. He's more capable of guarding some of the bigger, stronger post players in the league like Duncan, Howard, etc... Bosh is quicker, better rebounder and more versatile of a defender, and that was displayed best in the 2008 Olympics. When you have crappy defensive talent around you, the team won't perform and your own defense will suffer. That was seen with Gasol in Memphis a few years back, and Bosh this year.

 

 

 

*One last thing...when you are on bad teams and expected to do all the heavy lifting, all the "little things" that you talk about with Gasol are lost in translation. It's why KG went from never mentioned on defense to DPOY by joining the Celtics, and why Pierce went from being considered really good to arguably the game's best player in 2008 after the calvary of help arrived. It's why Gasol's all-around skills, which haven't changed since his Memphis days, were magnified the second he joined the Lakers. We can speculate about what Bosh or Dirk would do as 2nd options, but the fact of the matter is that since they became truly productive NBA players, they were put in the position to be that #1 option. Therefor you have 0 example to say what they would do in those roles, just speculation. As far as defense goes, Bosh's terrific campaign in the 2008 Olympics was my proof of what he could do with the right coach and defensive talent around him. Other than that, there's just no proof. HOWEVER, Gasol has been #1 option of his team for plenty of years, so we do have a place to judge him against Dirk, Bosh or Dwight besides the X's and O's. What defines the NBA's BEST players is how they can lead or carry a team, which is why I stress that ability so much. And there is 0 question to me that Dirk and Dwight can carry and lead a team much better than Gasol, and I truly believe in the right place Bosh can as well.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Nitro1118

[fish7718]

Offensivley he is third best, behind Dwight and Amar'e

 

Overall he is third best, behind Tim Duncan and Dwight

Edited June 13, 2010 by Fish7718

[AllenIverson#1fan]

Offensivley he is third best, behind Dwight and Amar'e

 

Overall he is third best, behind Tim Duncan and Dwight

He ain't better than Dwight!! Bwahahah

[fish7718]

He ain't better than Dwight!! Bwahahah

? What?