I wish NBA games were more like Soccer games

[YugoRocketsFan]

Soccer has music in-game all the time, it's just supplied by the fans singing or the intensely annoying vuvuzuela beehive that makes listening to the World Cup intolerable.

 

I sat next to the Brazil section at US-Brazil in Palo Alto for the World Cup and they were singing, dancing, playing percussion all game. For some of them it was more about the party in the stands than the game on the field. And that's my criticism of your point, not all soccer fans are all about the game only. Some are there for the atmosphere and live in that vibe. The only difference NBA v soccer is the fans supply the music in soccer. Why is that an important difference if your goal is focus on the game only?

 

Referees. Soccer has less volume of calls, less judgment calls. Judgment is involved in making the call of course, but it's perfunctory. Offsides is pretty basic compared to charge/blocking. Also have a larger field and more space to see a play develop. You can't compare the two. Though I would love to see yellow cards and red cards in the NBA, it would be a hoot. Red card Sheed and watch him go nuts. We'd see cards torn, refs decked, fun stuff.

 

Flopping. It's worse in soccer. Hard tackle and the guy writhes on the field like someone needs to get an ambulance out there right now. Player sees the ref isn't buying it and miraculously Ambulance Man is back up and ready to play. The NBA has Paul Pierce pulling that. Soccer has a busload of bad actors.

 

As a Warriors season ticket holder I can tell you that the entertainment can work, but more during time outs than in-game, the Flying Dubs (dunks off trampoline) always fire the crowd up. Usually at Oracle the fans start a chant and then the music kicks in to support it, not the reverse.

 

I get your point that the NBA in-game can tend to manufacture atmosphere and in soccer it's more organic since the fans are passionate, unified and drunk. But a single focus just on the game isn't true for either sport.

 

Yes but at least FIFA punishes players who flop/dive. In the NBA, you get rewarded for it.

[Sky]

I'm all for fining flops or having the league keep track of them on video review and too many triggers a suspension like the tech count in the playoffs.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Real, I'm saying if you cut down the music and blitz the NBA game experience will be even better. All those side things are not necessarily bad, but too much of it can take the experience away from the main thing you want to experience. Like too much side dish to go with the steak, sure you know you're ordering steak but your tounge, tasting sensory, has to take in many other dish besides the steak. Your experience of the steak itself becomes one OF THE MANY good things you experience in that meal, instead of being THE ONLY one... so it's not as special.

 

 

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I see you and Sky pretty much trying to tell me it's harder to ref a charge/ blocking in NBA than it is in soccer. This is not true. I've seen pretty much every WC game this year, or ask the veterans like Yugo, it's the same: a contact made between a defensive player and an offensive player. One of them falls down, claiming the other fouls them. It's either an offensive foul or defensive foul. Soccer referee has to make a decision on the spot whether it's one or the other... just like it is in basketball with NBA refs.

 

I don't deny there are plenty of floppings/ sell jobs in soccer even though they're fully aware they can be yellow-carded at any moment... but watch a soccer referee refs them. In these WC games, not even once did I see a ref decision, which is always replayed after the play, that it's a blatantly wrong decision, which makes me respect soccer refs even more. Their accuracy of making the right calls is off the charts considering they're alone in working field like 17 times bigger than in a basketball environment (81000 square feet vs 4700 square feet) with more players to ref to add. Ball kicked and passed around at incredible speed. From one court to the other in a matter of seconds, the ref has to keep up on foot.

 

What happens in soccer if you flop? Well, the referee has to be cool-headed too or he's gonna send off 4-5 players in a game. So when a soccer ref sees obvious flopping, he either ignores it (which is most of the time) or gives a yellow card. If there's no flopping, then the ref makes a good decision to give the ball to the right team. This Germany player Mesut Ozil flopped after a defender "touched" him, the ref saw that, had none of that (maybe because it was such a bad sell job), and yellow-carded him on the spot. So flopping rarely works in soccer. If you're the flopper, you are pretty much gonna get ignored or yellow carded and directly cost your team. If you had a yellow card before, you get a red card and your team pays the ultimate price of having to play with 10 players on the field from then on.

 

In comparison, how many times do we hear Jeff Van Gundy or Mark Jackson say, "that wasn't a foul." in a game? 1-2-3 times. And the 3 NBA refs have pretty much 3 angles on a single play, a luxury not given to a soccer ref.

 

Flopping is "trying to get attention (of the refs)". In other words, floppers = attention seekers. People generally hate attention seekers, so equal wise, they should generally hate floppers. How do we deal with attention seekers? We ignore them... and after a while, they feel embarrassed or if not embarrassed, they stop their attention-seeking acts altogether.

 

 

I think Stern needs to be less protective of his refs. Let these coaches/ players criticize them in the media if it's warranted, don't issue a fine unless they go Darko-excessive cursing and threatening to kill and rape their families. Now that's too excessive. (Darko is something else isn't he) These will take away the "invincibility" feeling from the bloody refs. They walk even bigger than the superstars on the court these days... like they're "the rules" instead of "enforcers of the rules". Frown on me, shrug, make funny faces, run away and I'll T you up. Unbelievable. Or, since it's "very hard to tell" a charge from a block, I'm going to give calls to the team that behaves "nicer" to the refs in this game. On a bad day, Joey Crawford challenged Tim Duncan to a fight, or Joey DeRosa threw the ball to a fan... it's really a sign of refs being given too much power and they're sub-consciously stepping outside their boundaries. It's extreme examples, that's why Crawford and DeRosa were fined... but in not so-extreme examples like "not knowing the difference between block and a charge" are what really hurt teams, including the Lakers. But more than teams, it hurts the game.

 

This block and charge rule needs to be reinforced. Maintain the 3 things: your feet have to be set, you're outside the restricted zone, and you're not moving. And then add to the rule, "the contact between the defensive player and offensive player has to be solid believable to cause the defensive player to fall for it to be a charging foul". If it's just a gay-ish touch, it's NOT a bloody offensive foul. Otherwise we'll keep seeing skinny Kevin Martin being called for a charging foul when he "barrels" into the giant Yao Ming. Watch for dirty players who dish elbows/ knees on contact... if a soccer ref can spot fine details like that, you can't convince me three (3!) refs working on a much smaller court together can't do that. If Stern can't see this, he's probably too busy with his NBA marketing which is what he does all the time, little of which has to do with the quality of the game.

 

 

One last point to add (if it's too long, apology but I do think it's important to point out) is if you can't bring yourself to compare soccer system to the NBA system, then let's just compare the NBA to the international basketball system. What happens in much of the 2000s USA international matches? NBA players struggle to adjust not only to the rules, but also to the refereeing. It's an obvious indication of how NBA players are not used to the different "treatment" (or should I call rules) by the NBA and international refs. What happens when Dwyane Wade goes to the rim and he falls? It's ignored point blank by the bloody international ref! Which is fantastic! Unless it's the obvious fouls/ flagrants Like McHale clotheslining Rambis (okay maybe that's extreme), let the players play!

 

You get whistle, whistle, whistle, whistle, whistle... is this game even played by the players... or is it played by the refs? I guarantee if the NBA fixes its flawed referee system and the flopping rule, let the players play, you will not see anyone [expletive]ing about the Lakers getting favorable calls. I guarantee that 100%. Not even the most Laker hating guy will do it... otherwise it'd be baseless. There is a reason why it's not only "one delusional lunatic" in the whole world that claims the NBA is rigged... it's pretty much a claim everywhere, even outside USA.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Snake

[GamerGuy]

Snake, I think you're not understanding some of the differences between watching a NBA game on TV, and being at the actual stadium. Sports stations often dampen the crowd noise on live broadcasts, which means you start picking up all the other noises like music and what have you. But when your in the stands, the music is one of the last things you notice. The crowd is much louder, you can hear some of the action on the court (depending on how close you are). If you're really into the game, you're not going to even notice the music playing, if its playing at all.

[Sky]

Snake - Soccer has the difficult call on a tackle agreed, difference to me is basketball has more judgment calls in a tighter space, soccer has less judgment calls in an open field. Therefore not that comparable. Soccer refs are higher quality in their judgment and demeanor, there are no soccer ref divas but there are in the NBA. Thing is Pandora's Box is open and will remain so, it's not as if you can take the soccer ref demeanor and transplant it into the NBA. League refs will develop a healthy ego as a function of the stage. You can't undo that. I agree with your theory but it's not practical.

 

Flopping, well take a look at what that shameless Italian did. A dive on zero contact, complete with grabbing the ankle and writhing in agony on cue. I will be watching closely to see what happens to Guido. I expect nothing will.

 

NBA vs. international boils down to NBA stars getting upset when they don't get star calls overseas. Another case of correct but impractical application to the States.

 

On Stern changing, the ultimate in impracticality. The Emperor will make certain he maintains control of the Empire. Cuban called for more ref accountability, transparency in playoff game assignments, all things that need to happen. Darth fined him into the Stone Age.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Sky - how is it not practical when it's essentially the system adopted and used in world basketball, except the NBA?

 

You said it yourself: "star calls". I'd say eliminate "star calls", and we resolve the problem... or one of the problems. "Star calls" are the root of all problems in the NBA. Take out and eliminate whatever star treatment, and we will see who the real stars are, aka those players who can play like real stars without actually "exercising" their star treatment. Doesn't this make sense?

 

I don't want "scripted" stars. If you (as a ref) send a Dwyane Wade or a LeBron James to the free throw line for 2 FTs, although replay may show they don't deserve to, it's 2 points for them. You do that 5 times a game, it's 10 extra points a game. From averaging 20-21 PPG to easily 28-29 PPG. That's from "star" to "superstar" status (this is just an example). But my point is, if you (as the ref) symbolize all refs, you basically "script" a player's season from averaging only 20-21 PPG to 28-29 PPG... then the whole individual stats trickle to team stats (such as points) and then trickle to teams' W/L... the whole thing becomes one big giant script. The script may not be planned, but it's a huge "unoriginal product" manufactured by little scripts that happen regularly in each NBA game.

 

Since it's unoriginal, they might as well plan who's gonna win the whole thing before the season starts or on opening night.

 

 

You said the Italian soccer guy flopped shamelessly. Actually every flopper is shameless we all know that... but now the question is: did the ref actually reward the flop? The way NBA refs rewarded Miles, Matthews, and whole Jazz squad for flopping? No... soccer ref does not reward flops. If it's not a yellow card, most of the time it's definitely going to be ignored.

 

 

I'm going out on a limb and say only 1 out of 10 cases of a flop, a soccer ref will actually reward it... and it should be by human mistake. 2 out of those 9 cases will result in a yellow card, and 7 cases are ignored completely. So in other words, in 10 soccer flops:

-7 will be ignored,

-2 will be a yellow card, and

-1 will be rewarded to the flopper.

 

And I'm going on a limb again, in contrast, in 10 NBA flops:

-5 will be rewarded to the flopper,

-3 will be correct call (whether it's defensive foul or a charge), and

-only 2 will be ignored.

 

Since there's no technical foul on flopping in NBA... it's only 2 pitiful cases out of 10 flops will NBA referees ignore the flopper.

 

 

If you're saying in 10 cases of flops, a soccer ref only punishes the flopper twice with yellow card... at least in 7 other cases, they will be ignored. What happens when you ignore flopping? It stops... just like Utah stopped doing it in LA series after they realized it wouldn't work... and realized without flopping "skill", they're pretty much toast. I still think we'd have whooped them (Jazz) in 5 with George Karl. I do think there's a conspiracy behind it for the series... like, "Denver is struggling without GK, they're only a .500 ball club in their last 26 games... let's end their season quickly. Utah should be a better team vs. Lakers in Round 2".

 

I do admit Jazz were a better team than us WITHOUT George Karl, but it was without flopping. With flopping allowed, we had no chance. Not with Melo in foul trouble in 5 of 6 games. How can Miles and Matthews flopped freely in Denver series and had huge success, and while using the same exact technique they had little success in LA series? It's very inconsistent.

 

 

Conclusions of my essay:

1.) Star calls have to be abolished... it should be viewed like "slavery". It's just not right to the dignity of the game. Besides, with star treatment gone, we will see who the real star players are who can average 30 ppg without the star treatment. Only those feeling insecure will object because they are afraid without star treatment in place, they (or if you're a fan), their star player won't be much of a star.

 

2.) In response to #1... by taking out/ eliminating "star calls", it doesn't mean the NBA is going back to the "Bad Boys" era. Still maintain technical fouls and flagrant fouls 1/ 2... but to a less extent. If it's just trash talking in good competitive nature, let the players play. It's part of the game, it's how they played the game when the grew up in the streets. The NBA has been too paranoid of the "Malice at the Palace" incident. It happened. It's in the past, the NBA can take measures to make sure it won't happen again... but it doesn't mean by becoming a control freak.

 

3.) Flopping should be considered a crime. It's that serious. It really ruins the quality of the game. It makes an NBA game feel WWE-ish when you see the refs buying, or worse, seemingly agreeing with the flops. How Stern doesn't see this, I have no idea.

 

4.) Strip refs of their power. It's that simple. It doesn't mean players can spit at or threaten the refs. They're still protected with all the basic stuff, but no longer are they the power who can freely hand out technicals "as they see fit". NBA refereeing has become dictatorial... it's a joke. Take out the dictators because they're just refs. I pay this game as a fan to see 1.) the game, 2.) the players, 3.) famous celebrities/ people watching the game, 4.) some good looking gals... and then maybe down to 10000000.) the refs. I don't want to bloody know who Eddie Rush is, who Joey Crawford is, who Bennet Salvatore is. The fact that I know these refs' names is unbelievable, the fact that I can spell and type their names right is laughable and I'm not even in USA. The way it's going on, if I go to USA one day and meet one of these "dictators", I might even ask them to sign my basketball. They've put so much strong influence in the game, it's hard to ignore them. Come to work, ref the bloody game, and off you go. Fans don't want to see you, fans want to see the players and focus on the game. By whistling every 1 minute, it's hard not to notice how sparkling Ken Mauer's hair is... or how frail and old Bavetta is. They're paid handsomely (I believe an average of $100K a season), so do the job properly as refs/ any other employees, but not as these powerful dictators.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Snake

[Big Penny]

i agree about Ts for flopping, i hate it, it's ruining the game. i remember during game 3 when Gasol tried to flop, and he was called for it, i actually smiled. and you're the first person i've ever heard comment a football ref

 

PS. you do know the NBA is the most popular professional sports league in the world?

[Multi-Billionaire]

^Kudos to you my man... we as NBA fans have to sign this "invisible" petition that the ludicrous flopping has to stop. I thought they once tried to implement no flopping rule by handing out technicals? I thought that was brilliant. Whatever happened to it?

 

Flopping hurts every team, including the Lakers, including when they win the championship. I guarantee when flopping stops, it will be for the better for every party. How sweet it would be for the Lakers to win a championship and noone [expletive]es "the game was rigged"? You not only win the championship but also win the endless mental battle vs other team fanbases who claim "Lakers are favored by Stern". When that mentality is gone, your victories will taste a lot sweeter. On the same hand, we (other teams) will also feel a lot better when facing the Lakers... because let's be honest, (right now) I don't have full confidence in the refereeing system when my team is up against the Lakers in the playoffs. I can't give a ratass about regular season games. I don't care if my team averages +25 FTPG (free throw per game) against Lakers in regular season, that number always "somehow", "mysteriously" changes in the playoffs.

 

I want this BS to stop, I am sure every other fanbase does too, and Laker fans do too. The NBA shouldn't be soap dramas. It shouldn't feel like watching Desperate Housewives... it should feel "original sports" which generate the majority of the excitement feeling... packed with current marketing genius of Stern, NBA could top soccer as the most popular sport in, say give it 10-15 years.

 

Right now? Let's be honest, it's not happening. Not after they go through 2 different commissioners after Stern. If the current system stays, the NBA will remain a soap opera instead of real sports.

 

 

PS. you do know the NBA is the most popular professional sports league in the world?

 

It might be, but soccer is still the more popular sport, fan base wise. I don't necessarily want this, on the other hand, I wish the NBA can stop its BS, play its games like real sport, and we will see its popularity grow among those valuing real sport. The NBA, packed with Stern's marketing genius and current technology, will soar to new heights. But the game has to be original first.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Sorry guys, I just realized one mistake...

 

Flopping will always happen. In any physical sport. It's a tactic to gain an advantage. So far the NBA rules are what makes the NBA the only sport to allow its players fully take advantage of flopping and even to the point of abusing it.

 

 

What has to stop is not the flopping, but the rewarding of the flopping by the refs. I hope my intention here is clear. Flopping, like the act of "getting attention" will never stop... no one has any control over that. But what can stop is rewarding the flop/ giving the attention the attention seeker wants. When the flopper/ attention seeker doesn't get their reward/ attention, they will stop.

[andreusito]

Just curious, why are they not allowed?

Because there's a game of basketball going on, not a show to entertain fans. Some teams have cheerleaders though, but timeouts are much shorter in the ACB anyway so it's like 1 minute.

[AllenIverson#1fan]

^You smart man. My parents always say that to me.

 

Statistically, chinese is the most spoken language in the world... but not all people accept that, especially in the Western world.

 

Then I'll just say (to avoid headache), soccer is English language and NBA is French language.

I'm pretty sure that China is the most populated as well.

[Sky]

Snake - Star calls have been a part of the NBA since the fifties, that's never changing. You can make the case, be perfectly logical and persuasive, doesn't matter. Star calls are never going away. Never. I wish they would but I also wish I was with a leggy bikini model on the beach typing this on a laptop.

 

Rewarding flopping, that's unlikely to change as well. However what they can change is to implement a fine/suspension system for flopping to be monitored by the league reviewing game tapes. Work it like the tech system in the playoffs. Set a fine rate for a given number of flops, and another rate for how many flops leads to a one game suspension. If everyone knows that number going in, and knows the league is reviewing ti on game tape no one can complain.

 

Refs with too much power, no avoiding that in the NBA. There is no alternative.

 

Again what you are calling for is logical but wildly impractical. Stern isn't doing away with star calls when he manufactures a star-driven league.

[Real Deal]

Dang, I wish the Lakers would've gotten screwed over like Team USA did against Slovenia...but wait, that stuff doesn't happen in soccer, so nevermind.

[Real Deal]

Thank God the NBA isn't like soccer. There are more stretchers being used than points being scored, and there's no flopping in soccer? LOL...give me a break. Fake injuries and flopping...those have to be drawn-up plays or something, because they happen constantly.

 

Refs don't determine the outcome of a game? They did, USA vs. Slovenia (as mentioned earlier), and they also let Ghana walk in slow motion when substituting, and they made some ignorant calls down the stretch as well.

 

I am so thankful for basketball. After today, I appreciate the sport more than ever.

[Multi-Billionaire]

^In basketball, we use upper part of our body. In soccer, we use lower part of our body.

 

You keep being hacked at lower part of your body, e.g. your legs, by nature you lose balance much more easily than if you keep being hacked at upper part of your body. Legs especially are what support our body and its weight... if they're hacked like what happens in soccer because the tackler "targets" the ball (most of them genuinely do), then you're bound to lose balance and fall. That's why in soccer there are more players falling to the ground than basketball.

 

This opens the window for soccer players to flop because a lot players fall. Whether or not it's real fall or just a flop is determined by the ref. It's simply a tactical advantage.

 

Soccer refs can't control players walking slowly unless it's a blatant slow princess walk... I've seen ref going to the player and tell him to walk quickly. But soccer plays are much harder to "fix"... how many opportunities were there for USA to score? They had their chances but they just didn't convert. What if they converted just one? It would have been 2-1 USA and no need for the extra period. If the USA just converted, but they didn't. It could have been easily 2-1 or 3-1 USA, just as it could have been easily 2-1 or 3-1 Ghana, all without referee impact whatsoever. It's a matter of players converting opportunities. In comparison, how many extra free throws can an NBA ref give to LeBron James/ Dwyane Wade in a game when they "feel like it"? Sometimes 5, sometimes 10 more. That's why you see these players shooting 15-20 free throws. It's more than enough to affect the outcome of every game.

[Big Penny]

LMFAO "Refs can't effect the outcome of the game." "They get it right."

 

how's Lampard's 'missed' goal?

Edited June 28, 2010 by UnoCinco