Game 7: Biggest game in Kobe's career?

[Poe]

The difference is LeBron is not a better scorer than Kobe like Jordan was, LeBron is nowhere NEAR the clutch player Jordan or Kobe were/are, and LeBron is NOT a better defender than Kobe like Jordan was. Jordan is considered by many as the greatest perimeter defender in NBA HISTORY, and really the only player that has been the very best in the league on both ends at the same time. To compare LeBron's defense to Jordan's is a mockery.

 

Kobe and Jordan have such similar personalities and "greatness" characteristics that the arguement of Kobe vs. Jordan comes down to x's and o's. LeBron just doesn't have that, so there's a lot more complexities in comparing LeBron to them. And keep in mind, before LeBron did what he did in that Celtics series, I had him as the best player in the league. Now, it's really hard to defend him on that front.

 

This is why numbers can only tell you so much. You can say so-and-so had better numbers here and there, but it can be entirely affected by their role, the way their coach uses them, the offensive sets, the pacing, the skill level of their teammates, the ball IQ of the coach, and so on. The better way to tell which players are better is to watch them play, perhaps use very advanced statistics that paint a better picture than PPG, APG, RPG, etc, and also seek professional opinion. Alonzo Mourning said the hardest player he ever guarded was Hakeem, so I'm inclined to believe Hakeem was better than Shaq. Most defenders in the league say that Kobe is harder to guard than LeBron, like Grant Hill and Shane Battier, so I'm inclined to believe that Kobe is a better overall scorer than LeBron.

 

 

So point is, LeBron James and Michael Jordan had better numbers yet Kobe Bryant is the better basketball player.

 

My bad, it was the next season he shot 45.6% shooting to go with 20PPG. I'd argue injuries and the rust of not playing in 3-4 years for his low shooting % that first season, but it is what it is. Nontheless, at 40 years old MJ was still a 20/6/4 on 45% shooting player in a league where zone defense was legal. To say Jordan's stats are so inflated because of zone defense is ridiculous.

 

Yes, it's impressive for an old man, but it doesn't prove much other than Jordan was a damn good player. It does prove that advanced defenses may have had an affect on him, since his FG% clearly took a hit, though you can add age as a factor as well. There are too many variables to make much of a claim.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Poe

[Real Deal]

Zone defense was illegal, but not the double. You just had to stay committed to it, which led to a lot of assists for Jordan (or the extra pass, which eventually helped win them rings). He could see everyone on the floor, and once teams committed to doubling him, there was always going to be a guy open. Always.

 

Talked about the Jordan Rules before, though. Teams threw multiple defenders at him, played extremely physical defense, and doubled from time to time. That was basically the definition.

 

Not going to dive into the Kobe/Michael debate, though. I think Jordan is the greatest player ever, and Kobe is the best overall player ever (with Jordan at number 1b).

[Poe]

Zone defense was illegal, but not the double. You just had to stay committed to it, which led to a lot of assists for Jordan (or the extra pass, which eventually helped win them rings). He could see everyone on the floor, and once teams committed to doubling him, there was always going to be a guy open. Always.

 

Talked about the Jordan Rules before, though. Teams threw multiple defenders at him, played extremely physical defense, and doubled from time to time. That was basically the definition.

 

I never said it was easy to score, or that Jordan was waltzing his way past single coverage. It's just harder to score nowadays with the improved coaching and more defensive freedom.

 

Not going to dive into the Kobe/Michael debate, though. I think Jordan is the greatest player ever, and Kobe is the best overall player ever (with Jordan at number 1b).

 

That still doesn't make any sense to me.

[Real Deal]

That still doesn't make any sense to me.

"Best overall" doesn't include personal awards and achievements, just skills and overall abilities.

 

Greatness includes those.

[Erick Blasco]

How many people had the chance to see Jordan play when they were over the age of say, 13? Until then, you're comparing Kobe to a ghost, a myth, and numbers with little actual observation.

 

But since this is the internet...

 

ECN, the logic is faulty. Jordan wasn't overrated, his teammates were vastly underrated. They were all offensive geniuses who were super-committed on defense. It's not a clean example, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe left the Lakers next year and his teammates won 50 games and made it to the second round. If you have a smart, hard-working team, you can compensate to a degree for a loss of a star, which is exactly what that Bulls team did.

 

Also, you're punishing Jordan's '95 performance after he sat out a season and lost his only playoff series in a span of eight years. Think about that.

 

Did LeBron have three losing seasons? How many "great" players had three straight losing seasons before getting the best help someone could have?

 

Paul Pierce says hello.

 

 

Poe, Jordan not only had raw numbers, his efficiency numbers are off the charts. How many perimeter players shoot over 50 percent from the floor? Jordan went entire seasons shooting over 50% without the benefit of being a great three-point shooter to space defenders the way, say, Kevin Durant can. And he pretty much never failed in any kind of pressure situation except when Nick Anderson stole the ball from him in 95.

 

Kobe doesn't do things nearly as efficiently. His shot selection is subpar. You never saw Jordan dribble around and shoot, or launch needless contested jumpers. He's one of the few volume scorers who scored without taking bad shots. Plus his defense is much better than Kobe's and Kobe's a plus defender. You saw what Ron Artest did to Paul Pierce? That was Jordan.

 

And LeBron isn't worthy of the discussion. Jordan had a much wider repertoire of moves than LeBron. LeBron has two moves. Pull-up three going left, or plow to the rim. His middle game is coming along, but great defenses can limit him. LeBron's defense actually shows potential, but I doubt he has the competitive drive of MJ and Kobe.

 

There's a lot of Dwight Howard in LeBron, where having fun is more important than the single-minded quest of a championship that Jordan had and Kobe has.

[Erick Blasco]

I never said it was easy to score, or that Jordan was waltzing his way past single coverage. It's just harder to score nowadays with the improved coaching and more defensive freedom.

 

 

 

That still doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Poe, in the middle of the 90s onward, you were allowed to maul offensive players. You could handcheck them at halfcourt, you can smash cutters, you can shove around post players, the game was much more physical in the 90s. Besides, zones are gimmicks. No good defense in the NBA plays zone. Only the Suns played zone and the Lakers were impatient because of it. There were open looks all over the court though. Schemes are better nowadays, and scouting is better, but you're not allowed to do as much today. Many people argue that Jordan could've averaged 40 if he played today. I doubt he would, but he'd post better scoring and passing numbers than LeBron.

[Poe]

"Best overall" doesn't include personal awards and achievements, just skills and overall abilities.

 

Greatness includes those.

If you believe a player is better by his awards, so be it. If you believe a player is better by his numbers, so be it. If you believe a player is better through thorough analysis, so be it. If it's 2 of these options or all three, that's fine too. We all have our different opinions, but no matter how you look at it, one player is either better, worse, or equal to another player. "Best overall" and "greater" is the same thing. You can't say Jordan is better than Kobe but not better than Kobe, cause that makes absolutely no sense.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Poe

[reno]

Just from a statistical standpoint, though I cannot find Kobes career average for his finals appearance, if you can find those I would like to see as I am interested myself.

 

MJ's Finals average- 33.6 ppg, 1.8 spg, 6.0 apg, 6.0 rpg, .806ft%, .368 3P%, .481fg%

MJ's Playoffs Average- 33.4 ppg,2.1 spg, 6.4 rpg, 5.7apg, .828ft%, .332 3P%, .487fg%

MJ's Regular Season average- 30.1ppg, 2.35spg, 6.2rpg, 5.3apg, .835ft%, .327 3P%, .497fg%

 

 

Comparison with kobe

Kobes Playoffs average- 25.5 ppg, 1.4spg, 4.8apg, 5.1rpg, .816ft%, .339 3P%, .450fg%

Kobes Regualr season average- 25.3 ppg, 1.5 spg, 4.7 apg, 5.3rpg, .838ft%, .340 3p%, .455fg%

Kobes Finals average-

 

 

Finals MVP's: Jordan 6, Kobe 2

Season MVP's: Jordan 5, Kobe 1

 

No disrespect to kobe, he is this generations best player,and one of the nbas greatest, but to say he may be better than jordan or some of the other nba greats makes me 0.o

Also the NBA defense in the 80s was brutal, specially the pistons.

[Nitro]

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/12590-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant/

 

Made the topic so we can keep away from flodding every topic about Kobe and his legacy. In there is my in-depth analysis of the debate, going beyond JUST numbers.

[Poe]

Poe, Jordan not only had raw numbers, his efficiency numbers are off the charts. How many perimeter players shoot over 50 percent from the floor? Jordan went entire seasons shooting over 50% without the benefit of being a great three-point shooter to space defenders the way, say, Kevin Durant can. And he pretty much never failed in any kind of pressure situation except when Nick Anderson stole the ball from him in 95.

 

Kobe doesn't do things nearly as efficiently. His shot selection is subpar. You never saw Jordan dribble around and shoot, or launch needless contested jumpers. He's one of the few volume scorers who scored without taking bad shots. Plus his defense is much better than Kobe's and Kobe's a plus defender. You saw what Ron Artest did to Paul Pierce? That was Jordan.

 

Yes, Jordan was fantastic. He's one of the best to ever play, there is no question about that. I'm just saying Kobe is better. Set Kobe back in time to where defenses are more limited, and he may have produce similar percentages if not greater, and add his 3 point shooting to the mix, and Kobe would have been even harder to stop than Jordan (not to say that 3 point shooting is the sole reason Kobe is better, but it is part of it).

 

Also, like Kobe, Jordan was known to make difficult shots. You can't tell me his shot selection was so perfect when many of the shots he took would be considered bad shots for role players. His ability to be so dangerous from even the most difficult of shots is part of what made him so great, as well as Kobe today.

 

And LeBron isn't worthy of the discussion. Jordan had a much wider repertoire of moves than LeBron. LeBron has two moves. Pull-up three going left, or plow to the rim. His middle game is coming along, but great defenses can limit him. LeBron's defense actually shows potential, but I doubt he has the competitive drive of MJ and Kobe.

 

There's a lot of Dwight Howard in LeBron, where having fun is more important than the single-minded quest of a championship that Jordan had and Kobe has.

 

I was being sarcastic when saying LeBron was the best to ever play. Everything you say here is proving the point I was actually making.

 

 

Poe, in the middle of the 90s onward, you were allowed to maul offensive players. You could handcheck them at halfcourt, you can smash cutters, you can shove around post players, the game was much more physical in the 90s. Besides, zones are gimmicks. No good defense in the NBA plays zone. Only the Suns played zone and the Lakers were impatient because of it. There were open looks all over the court though. Schemes are better nowadays, and scouting is better, but you're not allowed to do as much today. Many people argue that Jordan could've averaged 40 if he played today. I doubt he would, but he'd post better scoring and passing numbers than LeBron.

 

Yes, but what about illegal help D to go along with zones? What about the advanced statistics organizations have ready for their supreme defenders today that didn't exist before? What about the technology to see every single play by a player in all of his games by the touch of a button? Preparation is simply much more advanced today than it was before, as well as the defensive freedom to make more sophisticated gameplans against offensive players. No, you can't be as physical with your hands, but there are so many other areas to the game today that way more than makes up for it. I'd rather get shoved without the foul call than have specific defensive game plans set for all 5 players with the soul purpose of shutting me down.

 

 

 

I will admit this, though. Jordan was the supreme defender, though Kobe is an excellent defender himself. That end evens out the playing field between the two for overall play, but I am very firm when I say that Kobe is at least the best offensive player to ever play.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Poe

[EastCoastNiner]

Different league, different era. In Jordan's rookie season only 10 teams had .500 records or better. This season, 16 teams had .500 records or better. The Bulls still made the playoffs in both of Jordan's first few seasons, something Bron didn't experience 'till his third.

 

And, the league was in an expansion era when M.J. was playing with weaker teams to play against.

[Nitro]

And, the league was in an expansion era when M.J. was playing with weaker teams to play against.

 

You're right it was an expansion era when he was winning his titles, but the competition was still there. He beat the great '90's Knicks on multiple occasions, the back-to-back champion Pistons, tough Stockton/Malone-led Utah Jazz twice, Magic's [old] Lakers, Clyde's Blazers, Payton/Kemp's Sonics, league MVP Barkley's Suns...the league was a lot more diluted of talent in the early '00's than it was when Jordan was winning rings (not saying the 3-peat Lakers weren't good, they would have won championships regardless of the era they played in).

[EastCoastNiner]

You're right it was an expansion era when he was winning his titles, but the competition was still there. He beat the great '90's Knicks on multiple occasions, the back-to-back champion Pistons, tough Stockton/Malone-led Utah Jazz twice, Magic's [old] Lakers, Clyde's Blazers, Payton/Kemp's Sonics, league MVP Barkley's Suns...the league was a lot more diluted of talent in the early '00's than it was when Jordan was winning rings (not saying the 3-peat Lakers weren't good, they would have won championships regardless of the era they played in).

 

Am I supposed to be impressed that he beat an old Lakers team, an aging Pistons team, a team with two notorious chokers, the run and gun Sonics, and the Phoenix Barkley's?

[Nitro]

Am I supposed to be impressed that he beat an old Lakers team, an aging Pistons team, a team with two notorious chokers, the run and gun Sonics, and the Phoenix Barkley's?

 

First off the Sonics were also the 2nd best defensive team in the league when the Bulls beat them in the Finals...2nd only to guess who? The Bulls.

 

Secondly, give me those teams over Miller's Pacers (who Jordan also beat), AI's Sixers (one of the worst Finals teams ever), or Kidd's Nets (same as Sixers), who account for 3 of the 5 teams the Lakers had to beat to win the championship. The only GREAT teams Kobe's had to go through is the Spurs of the early '00's and the Celtics.

 

Any way you cut it, I really don't think the fact that MJ played in an expansion era should meaning anything to the arguement. The difference in talent of teams both MJ and Kobe had to go through is minimal.