Bosh S&T to Miami?

[BasX]

The details remain unclear and the reports unconfirmed, but several news outlets are reporting that a sign-and trade deal between the Toronto Raptors and Miami Heat is near completion, a deal which will ship all-star Chris Bosh to South Beach.

 

Dan LeBatard, a writer for the Miami Herald and Fanhouse, reported on his Twitter account that a trade to send Bosh is Miami is done and has been agreed upon in principle. In return the Raptors would receiver talented young power forward Michael Beasley, Canadian Joel Anthony, and forward Mario Chalmers.

 

However, a short time after reporting the trade Lebatard then cautioned that "Bosh and [Dwayne] Wade could change their mind."

 

Meanwhile, the Globe and Mail cites a league source who said that although a Miami deal is possible for Bosh and the Raptors, there is "no truth" to the completion of the trade reported by Lebatard.

 

More to follow.

 

http://www.thescore.com/home/articles/49809-beginning-of-the-end

 

Miami would have no one

[BasX]

A retraction has been posted by Grange but it calls this "premature"

 

Chris Bosh may well end up in Miami, but with the NBA’s free agent window not yet open, reports of a deal in place that would return Canadian national team member Joel Anthony, forward Michael Beasley and guard Mario Chalmers are premature.

 

“There is no truth to that,” said one source with knowledge of the situation.

 

A major issue is that Miami is loath to part with players as they try to bring LeBron James or Bosh or both to play with Dwyane Wade because they have so few as it is. Only Chalmers and Beasley are under contract for next season as the Heat have jettisoned most of their roster to make room for three ‘max’-type deals to keep Wade and team him with fellow Team USA members Bosh and James. The Heat made a qualifying offer to Anthony Tuesday, making him a restricted free agent.

 

Because the Heat are below the salary cap they can absorb Bosh without having to move salary out in a sign-and-trade. In that scenario the Raptors would get a trade exception worth about $16.5-million which they could use to make trades with other teams for players with salaries totaling that amount. They could also take back draft picks from Miami, which don’t count against the salary cap.

 

A deal for Bosh returning Beasley, Chalmers and Anthony was reported by ESPN Miami correspondent Dan LeBatard.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/source-no-truth-in-bosh-to-miami-rumours/article1624393/

[Built Ford Tough]

I'm not the only one that absolutely loathes that package, right?

 

The only thing that I am even remotely interested in is Beasley and the TPE. I'll pass on Chalmers and Anthony. Not only are they pointless on this team (well, at least Chalmers) but they reduce the TPE which is the most valuable thing in this trade as far as I am concerned.

 

If I was Colangelo I would tell them that if they want Bosh in a S&T that I want our pick back and the TPE. Only then would I take Beasley back as well. If Miami doesn't want to give that up, I'd just tell them that they can sign Bosh outright. I'd have absolutely no interest in this package if I'm not getting my 1st back.

 

And I call BS on this being premmature. This trade is a done deal if you ask me. The only reason why people are refuting this is because they are afraid of being charged with tampering.

[BasX]

It's either TPE or Chalmers/Anthony

 

A rumor arose that the TPE will be used to get Collison and Okafor which makes me think one of the two other PGs are gone.

[Built Ford Tough]

It's either TPE or Chalmers/Anthony

 

A rumor arose that the TPE will be used to get Collison and Okafor which makes me think one of the two other PGs are gone.

 

I like getting Collison as that acquisition would solidify the Raptors backcourt for the next 4 years with him and DeRozan, but I question whether or not picking up Okafor is a smart move. I'd be all for it if the Raptors could dump Turkoglu on somebody, but if they don't move him and wind up acquiring Okafor, they are going to be completely screwed financially for the next 5 years.

 

Could you imagine paying

 

Okafor: $52M over the next 4 years

Bargnani: $50M over the next 5 years

Turkoglu: $44M over the next 4 years

Calderon: $29.2M over the next 3 years

 

??

 

That is just dreadful.

 

With that said, getting Collison would be very nice, and if the Raptors could dump Turkoglu and/or Calderon, I could live with paying Okafor because he would compliment Bargnani fairly well and he isn't an awful center.

[Poe]

I'm not the only one that absolutely loathes that package, right?

 

And I thought the Raptors had "no leverage". And that they "would be lucky to get a draft pick" or "a decent role player at best", or something along those lines. By those standards, you should rejoice for getting a player of Beasley's caliber in return. Honestly, you guys are way too pessimistic. Look at the bright side for a change.

 

 

Seriously though, Beasley and even Chalmers are very nice trading chips that could ultimately help the Raptors get the player(s) they really want. Also, Joel's shot blocking off the bench is exactly what the Raptors need, so they probably won't trade him.

 

 

That is... if this trade is actually happening.

[Flash]

The Raptors need a guy like Joel. I'd be very excited at the chance to get a guy like him along with Beasley.

[Built Ford Tough]

I'm sorry if I would rather have a massive TPE instead of acquiring spare parts. Beasley is the only thing worth mentioning in that package, and he is an absolutely brutal fit in Toronto.

 

What I love the most is this though:

 

Seriously though, Beasley and even Chalmers are very nice trading chips that could ultimately help the Raptors get the player(s) they really want.

 

So let me get this straight, Chalmers is now a "very nice trading chip"? Wasn't he criticized constantly all season long by you guys? I seem to remember something called "The Chalmers Effect" that you guys would always talk about and how he was so horrible, but now he is a nice trading chip?

 

I just love how I am way too pessimistic because I would rather have a massive TPE and a draft pick instead of the Heat's spare parts. That is awesome.

[Flash]

I'm sorry if I would rather have a massive TPE instead of acquiring spare parts. Beasley is the only thing worth mentioning in that package, and he is an absolutely brutal fit in Toronto.

 

What I love the most is this though:

 

 

 

So let me get this straight, Chalmers is now a "very nice trading chip"? Wasn't he criticized constantly all season long by you guys? I seem to remember something called "The Chalmers Effect" that you guys would always talk about and how he was so horrible, but now he is a nice trading chip?

 

I just love how I am way too pessimistic because I would rather have a massive TPE and a draft pick instead of the Heat's spare parts. That is awesome.

 

I used to hate on Chalmers' because at the beginning of the season he was horrid. However, he got much better towards the end of the season and had a solid playoffs.

 

The Beasley thing is what baffles me though. How you can't be excited about a guy who averaged 15 and 6 on and inconsistent 29 MPG is beyond me. Like I've said before, boost his minutes up to around 35 and you'll see 20 and 8 easily.

[Poe]

So let me get this straight, Chalmers is now a "very nice trading chip"? Wasn't he criticized constantly all season long by you guys? I seem to remember something called "The Chalmers Effect" that you guys would always talk about and how he was so horrible, but now he is a nice trading chip?

 

I just love how I am way too pessimistic because I would rather have a massive TPE and a draft pick instead of the Heat's spare parts. That is awesome.

The fact that Chalmers was a top 5 in the league in steals in 08/09, plus being all-rookie second team gives him value. I think it's safe to say many teams in the league will be interested in a Chalmers/Beasley package, especially when their combined salary is less than $6M.

 

And Beasley is a spare part?? Where the hell are you coming from..

[Flash]

And Beasley is a spare part?? Where the hell are you coming from..

 

Clearly the Raptors have much better pieces already

[Built Ford Tough]

It is funny how I am being pessimistic about the Raptors possibily acquiring Beasley.

 

Do you recall making these posts?

 

Lee and Beasley are talented but won't fit what the Raptors need.

 

It's got to be a center that can defend well. David Lee would be like a downgrade to Bosh, and Beasley will be a potential future Bosh. Trading for either of those would mean trading Bargnani as well, or else the Raptors will be experiencing the same problems as last year, except with even less offensive talent.

 

So Beasley went from being a terrible fit and not what the Raptors need to being a great pickup for Toronto now?

 

Beasley is talented, not once have I disputed that. Beasley has potential, not once have I disputed that.

 

Beasley is also a terrible fit in Toronto, especially alongside Bargnani who is not going to be leaving. Beasley is a terrible defender, which the Raptors are trying to address this offseason. Beasley is a tweener forward who can't defend power forwards are small forwards.

 

 

Beasley is obviously not a part of the Heat's furture plans. There is a reason why his name has been mentioned in so many rumors. I don't care if you believe them or not, where there is smoke, there is fire. If a players name has been mentioned as many times as Beasley's has over the past couple of months, you better believe that there is at least some validity to them. Stop acting like the Heat are doing some huge favour for the Raptors by allowing them to acquire Beasley when

 

The spare part comment wasn't the best choice of words on my part (I was refering more to Chalmers and Anthony, but my apologies for not making that clearer),. I simply meant that Beasley doesn't fit in with Miami's future.

 

And again, is there really anything wrong for me not being in love with Beasley and prefering a TPE and a draft pick instead? I just love how I have a different view of a player than you guys and apperantly I am a complete idiot for thinking that. Is there anything wrong with me not thinking that Beasley is this future superstar like you guys do or thinking that Beasley is a terrible fit in Toronto?

Edited July 1, 2010 by Built Ford Tough

[Built Ford Tough]

The eve of free agency offered more convoluted speculation. One potential deal involved Toronto agreeing to send Bosh to Miami, with forward Michael Beasley, guard Mario Chalmers and center Joel Anthony, a native Canadian, going to the Raptors on July 8.

 

But multiple league sources disputed the deal, including a high-level Raptors source who said the team had no real interest in Beasley or Chalmers. Toronto would, however, consider a $16 million trade exemption and the return of its first-round pick from Miami in the 2009 Jermaine O'Neal trade for a potential Bosh move.

 

Bosh, who ranks the Heat among his top choices, would lose about $30 million in a guaranteed sixth-year salary if he bolted Toronto without a sign-and-trade deal.

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/01/1709675/the-heat-is-finally-ready-to-blast.html

 

I like this more than the other rumoured deal simply because I think that a $16M (or $16.5M or whatever the starting salary of a max contract is for Bosh) TPE is more valuable to the Raptors than Michael Beasley or anything else Miami could offer Toronto. If the Raptors didn't already have a glut of bigs on the roster then maybe Beasley would be more appealing but with the way that the Raptors roster is constructed, Beasley is simply a terrible fit.

 

It would also be nice to get that draft pick back as it is looking like Toronto is going to be pretty terrible. I'm honestly not holding my breath that this team will be a playoff team before the protection wears off and it would completely suck to not only give the Heat Bosh and take back a terrible contract in Banks, but giving them a lottery pick as well. That would be too much for me to handle, haha.

 

If the Heat throw Beasley into this deal, I can live with it I guess. I'd try to squeeze them out of another draft pick if Beasley is involved though. As long as the Raptors get their pick back and a fairly large TPE, it is about all I can hope for when it comes to a S&T. The TPE will still be large enough to be able to possibly make that trade for Collison that BasX mentioned, so it will essentially be Bosh for Collison, Okafor, Beasley and the Raps 1st, assuming that the Heat insist on Beasley being involved so that they have more cap room.

 

Regardless of what happens, Colangelo is going to look like such a moron if Bosh goes to Miami. Not only did he basically hand them the cap room they needed to get Bosh on a silver platter by trading them O'Neal and taking Banks off of their hands, but the best asset he is going to get in return is his own damn pick. That is hilariously painful.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Built Ford Tough

[Poe]

Do you recall making these posts?

 

Yes...and? Is a center like Bynum a better fit than Beasley? I haven't changed my position.

 

So Beasley went from being a terrible fit and not what the Raptors need to being a great pickup for Toronto now?

 

Beasley is talented, not once have I disputed that. Beasley has potential, not once have I disputed that.

 

...and not once have I disputed that Beasley isn't a very good fit for Toronto the way the current team stands.

 

 

Beasley is also a terrible fit in Toronto, especially alongside Bargnani who is not going to be leaving. Beasley is a terrible defender, which the Raptors are trying to address this offseason. Beasley is a tweener forward who can't defend power forwards are small forwards.

 

Beasley is a decent defender as a power forward. The Heat have already done a good job developing him defensively. Of course, he will seem much worse playing the frontcourt with Bargs and Turkoglu, though.

 

Again, I've never denied that he isn't a great fit. You're also forgetting Beasley's value as a player in itself.

 

 

Beasley is obviously not a part of the Heat's furture plans. There is a reason why his name has been mentioned in so many rumors. I don't care if you believe them or not, where there is smoke, there is fire. If a players name has been mentioned as many times as Beasley's has over the past couple of months, you better believe that there is at least some validity to them.

I'm not truly believing any of it until pen is put to paper. For now, I'm taking Riley's word over the media's, though I am not 100% on anything. I do personally believe that the Heat would rather keep Beasley than give him away for extra money, which is what most articles would like you to believe.

 

 

Stop acting like the Heat are doing some huge favour for the Raptors by allowing them to acquire Beasley when

I'm not. I was pointing out the Raptors' fans pessimism towards Chris Bosh's sign-and-trade possibilities, which I remember you guys telling me how you have no "leverage" and that it was nearly hopeless to get any sort of value in return.

 

This offer shows the Raptors not only getting Michael Beasley, but a decent back up PG in Mario Chalmers and a good shot blocker in Joel Anthony.

 

 

The spare part comment wasn't the best choice of words on my part (I was refering more to Chalmers and Anthony, but my apologies for not making that clearer),. I simply meant that Beasley doesn't fit in with Miami's future.

 

Okay. But Chalmers and Anthony aren't spare parts either. Chalmers was a starter the year before, and Anthony has been a rotation player for the past two years. Daequan Cook and James Jones were spare parts.

 

And again, is there really anything wrong for me not being in love with Beasley and prefering a TPE and a draft pick instead? I just love how I have a different view of a player than you guys and apperantly I am a complete idiot for thinking that. Is there anything wrong with me not thinking that Beasley is this future superstar like you guys do or thinking that Beasley is a terrible fit in Toronto?

 

Beasley is making under $5M and was a #2 overall pick. That's your draft pick a year early, 2 years developed, plus he's a better player than what the Raptors would've used their TPE on, and half the salary they would have paid him.

 

 

Overall, yes you are being pessimistic as usual. You could look at the bright side and see Beasley's upside, contract, abilities as a player, and the fact that you got some good value for Bosh when you could have had something a lot worse (or nothing at all). Instead, you look at the bad side in seeing that Beasley is a "terrible" fit, you'd rather have something else, and other blah blah. So what. The worst thing that can happen with Beasley is that he'll be traded.

 

 

 

Edit: I didn't realize exactly how large the TPE was. I feel a little like an idiot after reading the quote in that second post, lol. I'll admit that I don't fully understand the way it works either, but I understand as much that the Raptors will have more room to work with during free agency.

 

Still, getting a player of Beasley's caliber is not something I'd look down upon. Again, the worst thing that can happen is that he'll get traded for something of similar value that fits the Raptors team better.

 

I'm still behind my comment on the negativity in the Raptors board. I see a lot more negative comments than positive ones. I'm not asking everyone here to start singing about lollipops and roses, but you don't have to act like such a downer for every possible deal the Raptors are going to make, or every time a player does something out of the norm, or anything else that happens.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Poe

[Jammin]

The Raptors are uninterested in receiving Michael Beasley, Mario Chalmers and Joel Anthony in a sign-and-trade for Chris Bosh, according to multiple sources.

 

But Toronto would consider a $16 million trade exemption and the return of its first-round pick from Miami in the 2009 Jermaine O'Neal trade for a potential Bosh move.

 

Bosh would receive an extra $30M in guaranteed money if he signed a deal with the Raptors.

 

Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/67660/20100701/raptors_interested_in_$16m_tpe_1st_rounder_from_miami_for_bosh/#ixzz0sQ6OzXpe

[Built Ford Tough]

Yes...and? Is a center like Bynum a better fit than Beasley? I haven't changed my position.

 

You are making it sound like acquiring Beasley is a great thing for the Raptors now when three weeks ago it was a terrible fit, so yeah, I think you have changed your position a bit there.

 

...and not once have I disputed that Beasley isn't a very good fit for Toronto the way the current team stands.

 

So what then, the Raptors should just throw together a rag tag team of players that don't fit at all with the other pieces around each other? You also said this was a bad idea for the Raptors when I mentioned that hypothetical 3 way trade with the Raptors, Wolves and Bulls.

 

Al Jefferson is not the answer for Toronto because they need a center that rebounds and most of all, plays defense. The defensive combination of Bargnani and Jefferson could potentially be even worse than Bargs and Bosh.

 

What I was originally pointing out was that the Raptors should look for a big that compliments Bargnani's game, not necessarily that Jefferson doesn't have any qualities that fit (like rebounding). What the Raptors need in general is a player who can cover Bargnani's back with rebounding and defense, much like what Erick Dampier does for Dirk and the Mavericks (not that he's the prime example, but that's his job in general for Dallas and they've been a successful team with him as their starting center).

 

I wouldn't even consider Jefferson. It's not always about the talent, it's about having the right players. O'Neal-Bosh didn't work, and Bargnani-Bosh didn't work. What makes you think Jefferson-Bargnani is going to work?

 

You made it sound like Raptor fans shouldn't be happy with Jefferson in that hypothetical trade, but now you are trying to convince us all that we should be thrilled with trading for Beasley who is a worse fit than Jefferson offensively and defensively? Beasley is not only incapable of playing center, but Jefferson is a superior rebounder to him and neither of them are worth anything on the defensive end of the floor. At least Jefferson compliments Bargnani on the offensive end of the floor with his post game. Beasley doesn't compliment Bargnani offensively, defensively, on the glass or anywhere else, so why exactly should I not want Jefferson but be thrilled with Beasley? Yeah, Beasley is younger and doesn't have a long term contract like Jefferson, but it is not like Beasley is every going to develop into a player that compliments Bargnani.

 

Beasley is a decent defender as a power forward. The Heat have already done a good job developing him defensively. Of course, he will seem much worse playing the frontcourt with Bargs and Turkoglu, though.

 

Again, I've never denied that he isn't a great fit. You're also forgetting Beasley's value as a player in itself.

 

Like you said, Beasley may look decent on the defensive end of the floor when he is playing alongside Jermaine O'Neal, Udonis Haslem, Dwyane Wade and on the 6th best defensive team in the NBA in terms of DRTG and the 2nd best team in terms of OPPG, but throw him on a team with Andrea Bargnani covering his [expletive] from the center spot, Hedo Turkoglu and Jose Calderon playing perimeter defense and he is going to look a hell of a lot worse. Without the great help defense of the Heat, Beasley's defense is going to be exposed.

 

What exactly is Beasley's value as a player? All we know is that he is a talented former 2nd overall pick who teams have questions about his attitude, work ethic and things like that. I don't care what you guys as Heat fans think, teams are obviously scared off by Beasley because of these kinds of things. I'm not saying that he has no value at all, but I guarantee that his value isn't nearly as high as you guys think it is. These concerns may be unwarranted in your guys opinions, but when multiple teams seem to be hesitant to trade for Beasley, it suggests that his value may not be as high as you would like to believe.

 

There is nothing wrong with that as many fans overvalue players on their favourite teams, but just because you may think that Beasley has a decent amount of value doesn't necessarily mean that Beasley has that much value. Hell, I could be undervaluing what Beasley's value is and I could be in the minority thinking that he doesn't have all that much value.

 

I'm not truly believing any of it until pen is put to paper. For now, I'm taking Riley's word over the media's, though I am not 100% on anything. I do personally believe that the Heat would rather keep Beasley than give him away for extra money, which is what most articles would like you to believe.

 

Fair enough. It is not like one of us actually know what the truth is to all of these rumours.

 

Like I said above though, I'm one to believe that if there is smoke, there is fire and there has been a lot of smoke around Beasley. Also, clearly Riley is not going to openly say that he is shopping Beasley. He may want to dump Beasley for more cap room, or he may not, but either way, I find it very unlikely that he would openly say that they are shopping Beasley because that lowers his value. If the Heat are looking to dump him for salary room, but in the process gain a pick or some other future asset, he isn't going to come out and admit that he is shopping Beasley because if he did that, no team is going to give him any sort of future asset because they know that Riley would want to get rid of him.

 

Again though, this is completely speculation on my part and neither of know what the real story is.

 

I'm not. I was pointing out the Raptors' fans pessimism towards Chris Bosh's sign-and-trade possibilities, which I remember you guys telling me how you have no "leverage" and that it was nearly hopeless to get any sort of value in return.

 

This offer shows the Raptors not only getting Michael Beasley, but a decent back up PG in Mario Chalmers and a good shot blocker in Joel Anthony.

 

And you have yet to explain to me how wanting a $16.5M TPE and a draft pick or two is being pessimistic? Why is it so wrong of me to prefer having that flexibility for future moves instead of trading for Beasley, Chalmers and Anthony, which puts the Raptors baiscally right at the salary cap (depending on how much Anthony gets they wold be anywhere between $53-55M)? Assuming that they re-sign Amir Johnson, they would be over the cap with this trade by around $4-5M.

 

You guys are constantly going on and on about how it baffles you guys that I would prefer this to having Beasley, Chalmers and Anthony, but have yet to explain once how exactly it is baffling. Look at it this way,:

 

Lineup w/ Beasley, Chalmers and Anthony

 

PG: Jack/Calderond/Chalmers/Banks

SG: DeRozan/Belinelli

SF: Turkoglu/Weems

PF: Beasley/Davis/Johnson/Dorsey/Evans

C: Bargnani/Anthony/Alabi

 

That lineup is right at the salary cap and has 16 players on the roster.

 

Lineup w/ TPE and draft pick

 

PG: Jack/Calderon/Banks

SG: DeRozan/Belinelli

SF: Turkoglu/Weems

PF: Davis/Johnson/Dorsey/Evans

C: Bargnani/Alabi

 

Not as talented of a roster, but they aren't over the salary cap and would have a $16M TPE to work with which can net them a point guard like Collison or be used to sign a free agent. Basically, it gives them more flexibility.

 

So please explain to me why exactly I am being pessimistic for wanting that in return for Bosh than the Beasley, Anthony and Chalmers deal?

 

Okay. But Chalmers and Anthony aren't spare parts either. Chalmers was a starter the year before, and Anthony has been a rotation player for the past two years. Daequan Cook and James Jones were spare parts.

 

Yes they are, lets be real here. Chalmers would be the Raptors 3rd string point guard and the Raptors already have a similar player to him in Marcus Banks. Chalmers is more appealing because he is younger and cheaper, but take the contracts out of the equation and he isn't a significant upgrade over Banks, at least based on his play this past season. A third string point guard is a spare part.

 

As for Anthony, he played 16 minutes a game for the Heat last season. As far as I am concerned, a 16 minute per game player is a spare part. You can argue otherwise all you want and talk about how Anthony is some great rotatin player, but I'm not going to change my stance on him being a spare part.

 

Beasley is making under $5M and was a #2 overall pick. That's your draft pick a year early, 2 years developed, plus he's a better player than what the Raptors would've used their TPE on, and half the salary they would have paid him.

 

He may be a better player than what the Raptors will use their TPE on, but it goes back to him being a terrible fit in Toronto. Would I rather have Beasley at PF when the Raptors already have Bargnani, Davis and Johnson, or would I rather have, say, Darren Collison at PG? Beasley may be the more talented player than Collison, but Collison would have significantly more value on Toronto considering their point guard situation in comparision to their power forward situation.

 

Overall, yes you are being pessimistic as usual. You could look at the bright side and see Beasley's upside, contract, abilities as a player, and the fact that you got some good value for Bosh when you could have had something a lot worse (or nothing at all). Instead, you look at the bad side in seeing that Beasley is a "terrible" fit, you'd rather have something else, and other blah blah. So what. The worst thing that can happen with Beasley is that he'll be traded.

 

Again, sorry for not thinking that Beasley is some future superstar like you guys do and prefering flexibility over him. Sorry for wanting the Raptors to be able to get pieces that fit the roster and not have some cluster[expletive] of talent that doesn't fit with each other at all.

 

Overall, I don't give a [expletive] if I am being pessimistic. I'm sorry if I don't think Beasley is the second coming of god like you Heat fans do.

 

I'm still behind my comment on the negativity in the Raptors board. I see a lot more negative comments than positive ones. I'm not asking everyone here to start singing about lollipops and roses, but you don't have to act like such a downer for every possible deal the Raptors are going to make, or every time a player does something out of the norm, or anything else that happens.

 

You see a lot more negative comments than positive ones because negative comments are warranted. I'm sorry if not being a blind homer for my team is a negative thing.

 

From now on I'll just run around and sing the praises of any and everything Raptors related though.

 

Raptors having $30M tied into average/slightly above average players for the next 4 years? Perfect, they are going to magically become stars.

 

Raptors losing their franchise player? Great, who needs Bosh.

 

Raptors making 2 playoff apperances in the last 7 years? Awesome, who needs the playoffs.

 

Bargnani = Next Dirk.

DeRozan = Next Carter.

Davis = Next Bosh.

Alabi = Next Mutombo

Belinelli = Next Ginobili

 

Happy now?

 

Seriously, [expletive] off with this complaining about us being too pessimistic for your liking. I don't care what you say about me being too pessimistic. I'm going to be realistic when looking at my favourite team and not blindly toot their horn for every single move and clearly overrate them. You don't like it, too bad.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Built Ford Tough

[BlueDevil]

I agree with BFT, its not pessimistic, its realistic

i would rather have the money to either grab someone who fits the system, but even more so, id rather dump these long term contracts that do nothing to upgrade our team and instead hinder the raps from rebuilding.

with bosh leaving, its clear that playoffs are gonna be hard to come by, so id rather watch a team with young, cheap pieces and watch them grow rather then wasting money on average players who will do little to really help our team and either get traded again or leave as free agents

raps should just fully commit to rebuilding, take a page from the thunders book and use the draft to actually get players of worth rather then trading for average players who will do nothing to help our team long term

that said, if the raps can shed calderon/turk's contract and somehow pick up a young pg like collison, id be thrilled and consider this offseason a success

 

i would be thrilled if the raps could get a lineup along the lines of

 

pg: collison/jack

sg: demar/ belinelli

sf: weems/ another pick up (hopefully a defensive minded player)

pf: davis/ johnson

c: bargnani/alabi

 

i wouldnt expect more then 25-30 wins, but it would be a young team that would have the chance to grow, with little pressure to deliver wins

 

Toronto fans are used to underachieving teams (leafs lol) so theyll understand

[Poe]

You are making it sound like acquiring Beasley is a great thing for the Raptors now when three weeks ago it was a terrible fit, so yeah, I think you have changed your position a bit there.

 

No I haven't. I never said Beasley was a good fit. (so how many times do I have to repeat this?)

 

 

You made it sound like Raptor fans shouldn't be happy with Jefferson in that hypothetical trade, but now you are trying to convince us all that we should be thrilled with trading for Beasley who is a worse fit than Jefferson offensively and defensively? Beasley is not only incapable of playing center, but Jefferson is a superior rebounder to him and neither of them are worth anything on the defensive end of the floor. At least Jefferson compliments Bargnani on the offensive end of the floor with his post game. Beasley doesn't compliment Bargnani offensively, defensively, on the glass or anywhere else, so why exactly should I not want Jefferson but be thrilled with Beasley? Yeah, Beasley is younger and doesn't have a long term contract like Jefferson, but it is not like Beasley is every going to develop into a player that compliments Bargnani.

 

*sigh*

 

 

Again, I said Raptor fans should be thrilled about getting Beasley COMPARING to their expectations of the kind of talent they might have gotten for Chris Bosh's sign and trade, which again, you guys said you had "no leverage". I was simply throwing back some things that were said to me before.

 

What exactly is Beasley's value as a player? All we know is that he is a talented former 2nd overall pick who teams have questions about his attitude, work ethic and things like that. I don't care what you guys as Heat fans think, teams are obviously scared off by Beasley because of these kinds of things. I'm not saying that he has no value at all, but I guarantee that his value isn't nearly as high as you guys think it is. These concerns may be unwarranted in your guys opinions, but when multiple teams seem to be hesitant to trade for Beasley, it suggests that his value may not be as high as you would like to believe.

 

There is nothing wrong with that as many fans overvalue players on their favourite teams, but just because you may think that Beasley has a decent amount of value doesn't necessarily mean that Beasley has that much value. Hell, I could be undervaluing what Beasley's value is and I could be in the minority thinking that he doesn't have all that much value.

 

I'm not overvaluing Beasley at all. Whether Beasley has attitude problems and whether his work ethic is actually a question is all debatable.

 

Michael Beasley is a 21 year old player that has a 15 point, 6 rebound, and 1 steal average in 30 minutes of playing time during a year focused on his development "into a winning player". He is due to make less than $5M next year in his rookie contract. Those are the facts. Does he not have trade value?

 

Compare him to Hedo Turkoglu, who averaged 11 points, 4 assists, and 5 rebounds in 30 mpg last year and makes $10M+ a year. Or how about Andrea Bargnani, who averages 17 points, 6 rebounds, and 1.4 blocks in 35 mpg with a similar salary to Hedo. Beasley produced better per-minute numbers than both players, yet is making half the salary. Trade value anyone?

 

 

Fair enough. It is not like one of us actually know what the truth is to all of these rumours.

 

Like I said above though, I'm one to believe that if there is smoke, there is fire and there has been a lot of smoke around Beasley. Also, clearly Riley is not going to openly say that he is shopping Beasley. He may want to dump Beasley for more cap room, or he may not, but either way, I find it very unlikely that he would openly say that they are shopping Beasley because that lowers his value. If the Heat are looking to dump him for salary room, but in the process gain a pick or some other future asset, he isn't going to come out and admit that he is shopping Beasley because if he did that, no team is going to give him any sort of future asset because they know that Riley would want to get rid of him.

 

Again though, this is completely speculation on my part and neither of know what the real story is.

 

K.. so if nobody knows jack, then who is to say that the Heat are having a hard time shopping Beasley, if we don't even know if he's even being shopped in the first place?

 

 

And you have yet to explain to me how wanting a $16.5M TPE and a draft pick or two is being pessimistic? Why is it so wrong of me to prefer having that flexibility for future moves instead of trading for Beasley, Chalmers and Anthony, which puts the Raptors baiscally right at the salary cap (depending on how much Anthony gets they wold be anywhere between $53-55M)? Assuming that they re-sign Amir Johnson, they would be over the cap with this trade by around $4-5M.

 

Sorry. I didn't realize exactly how large the TPE was. It was very ignorant of me to assume instead of knowing the facts. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding on that part. You are right in wanting $16M over Beasley.

 

 

However, I'm still behind what I said about Beasley, and I still believe the Raptors should pull for the Heat to add Beasley to the deal. Understand where I'm coming from. I'm not talking about how well Beasley fits on the team, but Beasley's value as a player in itself.

 

 

You guys are constantly going on and on about how it baffles you guys that I would prefer this to having Beasley, Chalmers and Anthony, but have yet to explain once how exactly it is baffling. Look at it this way,:

 

Lineup w/ Beasley, Chalmers and Anthony

 

PG: Jack/Calderond/Chalmers/Banks

SG: DeRozan/Belinelli

SF: Turkoglu/Weems

PF: Beasley/Davis/Johnson/Dorsey/Evans

C: Bargnani/Anthony/Alabi

 

That lineup is right at the salary cap and has 16 players on the roster.

 

Lineup w/ TPE and draft pick

 

PG: Jack/Calderon/Banks

SG: DeRozan/Belinelli

SF: Turkoglu/Weems

PF: Davis/Johnson/Dorsey/Evans

C: Bargnani/Alabi

 

Not as talented of a roster, but they aren't over the salary cap and would have a $16M TPE to work with which can net them a point guard like Collison or be used to sign a free agent. Basically, it gives them more flexibility.

 

So please explain to me why exactly I am being pessimistic for wanting that in return for Bosh than the Beasley, Anthony and Chalmers deal?

 

I'll take the first roster because it has more talent and more trading chips. With the extra money the second roster has, it depends, but if it can be used on some real talent, the second roster could be a lot better. It really depends on how the money is used, and the Raptors haven't exactly been known to put money in the right places in recent history.

 

My final say is that the first roster is better, but the second has more potential due to its significantly extra amount of money. If the Raptors have a plan on how to use that money, then I'll take the second.

 

If there is a third option that includes the 16M TPE and Michael Beasley, then I'll take that over the two above.

 

 

Yes they are, lets be real here. Chalmers would be the Raptors 3rd string point guard and the Raptors already have a similar player to him in Marcus Banks. Chalmers is more appealing because he is younger and cheaper, but take the contracts out of the equation and he isn't a significant upgrade over Banks, at least based on his play this past season. A third string point guard is a spare part.

 

As for Anthony, he played 16 minutes a game for the Heat last season. As far as I am concerned, a 16 minute per game player is a spare part. You can argue otherwise all you want and talk about how Anthony is some great rotatin player, but I'm not going to change my stance on him being a spare part.

 

Then I supposed your standard for a "spare part" is different than mine. To me, if they are a regular rotation player, especially for a playoff team, then they have significance. If they are regular reserves or DNP's, then the word "spare part" fits a bit better to me.

 

 

He may be a better player than what the Raptors will use their TPE on, but it goes back to him being a terrible fit in Toronto. Would I rather have Beasley at PF when the Raptors already have Bargnani, Davis and Johnson, or would I rather have, say, Darren Collison at PG? Beasley may be the more talented player than Collison, but Collison would have significantly more value on Toronto considering their point guard situation in comparision to their power forward situation.

 

I won't argue this because you are right, which goes back to my misunderstanding earlier. Only IF they are able to use that money on a player as good as Collison, however.

 

 

Again, sorry for not thinking that Beasley is some future superstar like you guys do and prefering flexibility over him. Sorry for wanting the Raptors to be able to get pieces that fit the roster and not have some cluster[expletive] of talent that doesn't fit with each other at all.

 

Overall, I don't give a [expletive] if I am being pessimistic. I'm sorry if I don't think Beasley is the second coming of god like you Heat fans do.

 

 

You see a lot more negative comments than positive ones because negative comments are warranted. I'm sorry if not being a blind homer for my team is a negative thing.

 

From now on I'll just run around and sing the praises of any and everything Raptors related though.

 

Raptors having $30M tied into average/slightly above average players for the next 4 years? Perfect, they are going to magically become stars.

 

Raptors losing their franchise player? Great, who needs Bosh.

 

Raptors making 2 playoff apperances in the last 7 years? Awesome, who needs the playoffs.

 

Bargnani = Next Dirk.

DeRozan = Next Carter.

Davis = Next Bosh.

Alabi = Next Mutombo

Belinelli = Next Ginobili

 

Happy now?

 

Seriously, [expletive] off with this complaining about us being too pessimistic for your liking. I don't care what you say about me being too pessimistic. I'm going to be realistic when looking at my favourite team and not blindly toot their horn for every single move and clearly overrate them. You don't like it, too bad.

 

And that is what I meant. Calm down, bro.

[Poe]

with bosh leaving, its clear that playoffs are gonna be hard to come by, so id rather watch a team with young, cheap pieces and watch them grow rather then wasting money on average players who will do little to really help our team and either get traded again or leave as free agents

 

Beasley, Chalmers, and Anthony aren't "young, cheap pieces" that you can "watch them grow"?

 

 

pg: collison/jack

sg: demar/ belinelli

sf: weems/ another pick up (hopefully a defensive minded player)

pf: davis/ johnson

c: bargnani/alabi

 

That line up wouldn't win more than 20 games. They are somewhat solid defensively (on the perimeter at least), but it lacks offensive talent, and range to space the floor. No interior D either. It reminds me a lot of the Timberwolves.

 

Plus, the Raptors can't dumb Turkoglu and Calderon for nothing. So I'm having a lot of trouble finding any real point to this argument.