Bill Simmons thinks Heat aren't a title contender

[SRT Spidey]

yea except when our three came together they were very humble about it, saying they havent won anything yet, while these three jackasses our throwing huge WWF style welcoming parties and saying their the best trio ever and theyre going to win 7 championships. they can go [expletive] themselves. i cant stand them, mostly bosh/lebron and the bandwagoner fans, not u guys.

[Check my Stats]

Wade said it best, they are getting criticized for doing what the Celtics did, just instead in the prime of their career rather than the twilight.

[Art]

I honestly dont think they are now but we will see how there bench and coaching situation develops.

[YugoRocketsFan]

The lack of basketball knowledge would be displayed by those who think this team has no weaknesses. I wouldn't be so quick to attack others for not stroking themselves over Wade, James and Bosh.

 

Wade and LeBron aren't going to box out someone like Howard, Bynum, Gasol or even Yao. Sorry. And flying in to grab your boards will usually get you an over-the-back call. I rarely see those two jetting from the perimeter to snatch up a board, and playing elite teams, they are going to have to sit on the perimeter.

 

I find this funny. A lot of people were throwing out excuses as to why we would lose the Finals with an injured Drew...how we couldn't take advantage of our size. Two years now, and the reason we lost in 2008 was supposedly because Gasol couldn't man the middle by himself.

 

Suddenly, Bosh can man the middle basically by himself, and a size advantage means nothing? It's all because of the all-star trio and the hype around it.

 

Rebounding is more about positioning than skill? Positioning is a skill, one that great rebounding bigs are good at. LeBron grabbed four and five boards in the two games against the Lakers this season. He has just two games where he grabbed four offensive boards all year long. Howard has 40 games where he grabbed 4+ offensive boards, four where he grabbed seven or more. Gasol has eight games where he grabbed 7+ offensive boards.

 

You can put those numbers together all you want, guys. Bigs boxing out other bigs allow guys like LeBron and Wade to grab those boards.There are a lot of guys that Bosh can't box out. Having Shaq would probably help, but you only get him for 20 minutes a game.

 

You won't have concerns over scoring unless you're playing a lock-down defensive team, and you may be good to go anyway as long as you don't keep throwing out isolation plays for each of those three, expecting them to score 30+ on elite defenders. Your backcourt defense won't be a problem. We don't know about chemistry yet...the team won bronze together, didn't win gold if they weren't led by Bryant and Melo (Bryant beat Spain by himself in the fourth). Low post scoring...don't see much of it yet. Post defense, don't see any of it yet. Once you get to the conference finals, that will be key, no matter what you say in July.

 

Every team has a weakness, you dont know what this team's weaknesses are until you see them step on the court. You also have to see how the players respond to having the trio in the lineup, if Chalmers is having trouble hitting a 3 pointer then yeah you have a weakness there, but you cant really tell until it happens.

 

What excuses were we throwing out Lakers wont win? I think the only excuse people made was Rondo dominating Fisher and the Lakers. But I guess it didnt happen because Phil Jackson put Kobe on Rondo.

 

Lets wait until they play to find their weaknesses.

[MiamiThrice]

The lack of basketball knowledge would be displayed by those who think this team has no weaknesses. I wouldn't be so quick to attack others for not stroking themselves over Wade, James and Bosh.

 

Wade and LeBron aren't going to box out someone like Howard, Bynum, Gasol or even Yao. Sorry. And flying in to grab your boards will usually get you an over-the-back call. I rarely see those two jetting from the perimeter to snatch up a board, and playing elite teams, they are going to have to sit on the perimeter.

 

I find this funny. A lot of people were throwing out excuses as to why we would lose the Finals with an injured Drew...how we couldn't take advantage of our size. Two years now, and the reason we lost in 2008 was supposedly because Gasol couldn't man the middle by himself.

 

Suddenly, Bosh can man the middle basically by himself, and a size advantage means nothing? It's all because of the all-star trio and the hype around it.

 

Rebounding is more about positioning than skill? Positioning is a skill, one that great rebounding bigs are good at. LeBron grabbed four and five boards in the two games against the Lakers this season. He has just two games where he grabbed four offensive boards all year long. Howard has 40 games where he grabbed 4+ offensive boards, four where he grabbed seven or more. Gasol has eight games where he grabbed 7+ offensive boards.

 

You can put those numbers together all you want, guys. Bigs boxing out other bigs allow guys like LeBron and Wade to grab those boards.There are a lot of guys that Bosh can't box out. Having Shaq would probably help, but you only get him for 20 minutes a game.

 

You won't have concerns over scoring unless you're playing a lock-down defensive team, and you may be good to go anyway as long as you don't keep throwing out isolation plays for each of those three, expecting them to score 30+ on elite defenders. Your backcourt defense won't be a problem. We don't know about chemistry yet...the team won bronze together, didn't win gold if they weren't led by Bryant and Melo (Bryant beat Spain by himself in the fourth). Low post scoring...don't see much of it yet. Post defense, don't see any of it yet. Once you get to the conference finals, that will be key, no matter what you say in July.

 

Chris Bosh was 6th in RPG in the NBA last season. Acquiring a Center that can rebound and box out big guys will not be a big problem. It is easier to find a Kendrick Perkins than a star. The stars have been assembled. All that's left is to find hungry role players willing to do their role. I'm sure Shaq is begging to come to Miami and he can defend guys like Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum better than anyone. Joel Anthony is a decent big off the bench and was top 15 last year in Blocks despite playing less than 20 MPG. I've heard nothing but good things about Pittman who could be a solid player. Shaq/Juwan Howard plus guys like this will get the job done just nicely.

[Nitro]

We don't know about chemistry yet...the team won bronze together, didn't win gold if they weren't led by Bryant and Melo (Bryant beat Spain by himself in the fourth).

 

That's not fair and very misleading. Wade was the best player of the 2008 Olympics, leading the team in scoring and shot 67% for the entire Olympics (including leading Team USA in scoring against Spain). LeBron also shot 60% and was played all 5 positions for the team. Kobe managed to shoot his NBA % of 46% and only 59% from the FT line. Melo was money in the 2006 and 2007 FIBA games, but didn't play that great in the Olympics.

 

The team that won bronze together was 4 years ago and included many other current stars. If you put that bronze medal stigma on James/Wade/Bosh and say they'd need Kobe or Melo to win, then you have to do the same to Deron/Paul/Howard/etc.. And I know those guys aren't on a "super-team", but in the next few years they are going to have to form similar duo's/trio's to have a shot at winning championships.

[Real Deal]

That's not fair and very misleading. Wade was the best player of the 2008 Olympics, leading the team in scoring and shot 67% for the entire Olympics (including leading Team USA in scoring against Spain). LeBron also shot 60% and was played all 5 positions for the team. Kobe managed to shoot his NBA % of 46% and only 59% from the FT line. Melo was money in the 2006 and 2007 FIBA games, but didn't play that great in the Olympics.

 

The team that won bronze together was 4 years ago and included many other current stars. If you put that bronze medal stigma on James/Wade/Bosh and say they'd need Kobe or Melo to win, then you have to do the same to Deron/Paul/Howard/etc.. And I know those guys aren't on a "super-team", but in the next few years they are going to have to form similar duo's/trio's to have a shot at winning championships.

Barkley led the Dream Team in scoring, also...didn't mean he was the best player. Jordan was the offense, and he was the defense. We know who led the 2008 Olympic team...no need for the stats. But anything you can do to credit the trio, right? I see it was LeBron and Wade, in your eyes...haha.

[Nitro]

Barkley led the Dream Team in scoring, also...didn't mean he was the best player. Jordan was the offense, and he was the defense. We know who led the 2008 Olympic team...no need for the stats. But anything you can do to credit the trio, right? I see it was LeBron and Wade, in your eyes...haha.

 

Kobe led the team from an emotional standpoint, but he was NOT the best player of that Olympics. He and Kidd had a huge impact on the team's attitude/confidence, and their defensive intensity stuck with the other players. I am not denying he was "the leader", but he was not the best player of that Olympics. He was inconsistent offensively, and didn't give the team the energy or actual productivity that Wade did. Wade was without a doubt the best player of those games, and you cannot deny how important LeBron's versatility was as well.

 

And no...not anything for me to do to credit the trio. If I wanted to do that I could have dissected your entire post and gone about it that way. All I wanted to do was disprove this, because it was horribly misleading (especially the Melo part...at least mention Kidd, as Melo was also on that bronze team).

[MiamiThrice]

That's not fair and very misleading. Wade was the best player of the 2008 Olympics, leading the team in scoring and shot 67% for the entire Olympics (including leading Team USA in scoring against Spain). LeBron also shot 60% and was played all 5 positions for the team. Kobe managed to shoot his NBA % of 46% and only 59% from the FT line. Melo was money in the 2006 and 2007 FIBA games, but didn't play that great in the Olympics.

 

The team that won bronze together was 4 years ago and included many other current stars. If you put that bronze medal stigma on James/Wade/Bosh and say they'd need Kobe or Melo to win, then you have to do the same to Deron/Paul/Howard/etc.. And I know those guys aren't on a "super-team", but in the next few years they are going to have to form similar duo's/trio's to have a shot at winning championships.

 

I agree with this post. LeBron and Wade did a way better job of playing within the team. Kobe still had the mindset that he had to be THE GUY like he was in the NBA.

[Real Deal]

Kobe led the team from an emotional standpoint, but he was NOT the best player of that Olympics. He and Kidd had a huge impact on the team's attitude/confidence, and their defensive intensity stuck with the other players. I am not denying he was "the leader", but he was not the best player of that Olympics. He was inconsistent offensively, and didn't give the team the energy or actual productivity that Wade did. Wade was without a doubt the best player of those games, and you cannot deny how important LeBron's versatility was as well.

 

And no...not anything for me to do to credit the trio. If I wanted to do that I could have dissected your entire post and gone about it that way. All I wanted to do was disprove this, because it was horribly misleading (especially the Melo part...at least mention Kidd, as Melo was also on that bronze team).

The defense was what won the games, and Kobe's offensive/defensive surge against Spain in the fourth actually won the championship. Nobody else stepped up. Even Simmons (who hates Bryant) shares the same story.

 

Wade and LeBron didn't shoot 60+ percent. They were getting to the rim, and it was much easier because Team USA had shooters. One of them shot the ball and drew doubles, which killed most of the teams they played against. Phil Jackson has discussed the same thing before, and even about Jordan, who stopped shooting 55-60% in a lot of his games during the second three-peat (and it was even worse during his last three Finals), yet Jordan still caused the most havoc and had the biggest impact on the offensive end. Basketball isn't always about shooting percentages.

 

Four years ago? So what? Four years ago, Wade was the leader of the NBA champion Miami Heat, and LeBron was less than a year from getting to the NBA Finals. They weren't too young to win...they just needed someone that could take over on both ends of the court, was clutch, and had the brains to play under control, instead of trying to create his own Vince Carter-ish human highlight reel. Bryant respected the international players and teams, and was aware of their skills and abilities...something Bosh and LeBron (and Wade, at that time) didn't do.

 

And it's something LeBron and Bosh don't do to this day...respect opponents. And it will come back to bite them, like it always does. If Miami doesn't reach the Finals, I will actually feel bad for Wade...but can't say I'll care for anyone else on the roster.

[Check my Stats]

How does Bosh not respect opponents?

[Real Deal]

How does Bosh not respect opponents?

Didn't seem like Bosh was respecting anyone lately, actually.

[Nitro]

The defense was what won the games, and Kobe's offensive/defensive surge against Spain in the fourth actually won the championship. Nobody else stepped up. Even Simmons (who hates Bryant) shares the same story.

 

Wade didn't step up with his 20 1st half points when the rest of the team was non-existent?

 

And Kobe gave the team an identity with his defense, but you have to give credit for the rest of the team raising their level of defensive play. Kobe deserves major respect for it, but ultimately the team made their biggest defensive impact by full-court pressing teams and creating constant fast-break oppertunities (and Wade did the best job at that without a doubt).

 

Wade and LeBron didn't shoot 60+ percent. They were getting to the rim, and it was much easier because Team USA had shooters. One of them shot the ball and drew doubles, which killed most of the teams they played against. Phil Jackson has discussed the same thing before, and even about Jordan, who stopped shooting 55-60% in a lot of his games during the second three-peat (and it was even worse during his last three Finals), yet Jordan still caused the most havoc and had the biggest impact on the offensive end. Basketball isn't always about shooting percentages.

 

Give me a break. Kobe shot 32% from 3 in the Olympics. LeBron shot 46% and Wade shot 47% from 3, respectively (both higher than Kobe's overall FG % in the Olympics). Wade shot better from the FT line than Kobe, and shot 29 more FT's in those 8 games than Kobe did.

 

And basketball is about shooting percentages when you're both playing the wing positions and one player is scoring more on over 20% better from the field. It's not like Kobe was drawing triple teams and players were playing off him. He scored in iso situations, and that's it offensively. Wade was destroying teams by playing the passing lanes, getting to the rim constantly, giving them a huge boost in energy and being ultra-consistent.

 

Four years ago? So what? Four years ago, Wade was the leader of the NBA champion Miami Heat, and LeBron was less than a year from getting to the NBA Finals. They weren't too young to win...they just needed someone that could take over on both ends of the court, was clutch, and had the brains to play under control, instead of trying to create his own Vince Carter-ish human highlight reel. Bryant respected the international players and teams, and was aware of their skills and abilities...something Bosh and LeBron (and Wade, at that time) didn't do.

 

First off, yes, Wade was the leader of the NBA Champion Heat...which makes whatever points you make about the team needing Kobe to win Gold irrelevant as Wade has already proven on the NBA stage he can lead a team to the promise land.

 

And four years makes a big difference. LeBron is a much better shooter and defensive player than in 2006. Bosh is a better, more experience player since that time. Wade got marginally better as well. Players with 3 years experience and 7 years experience is a big difference, even if talent/skill wise the difference is minimal.

[Real Deal]

First off, yes, Wade was the leader of the NBA Champion Heat...which makes whatever points you make about the team needing Kobe to win Gold irrelevant as Wade has already proven on the NBA stage he can lead a team to the promise land.

So he should've done it in 2006, after he won his NBA championship, but he didn't.

 

You can play the numbers game all you want. Jordan didn't lead the last three championship teams in those NBA Finals, obviously...and it's a given that Wade and LeBron didn't need Kobe in 2008, because they matured and were so much more improved from 2006 to 2008.

 

The stats will also indicate that Cleveland was going to win the NBA championship the last two seasons, until they didn't.

 

Nobody is dismissing how good the team will be, once again. But I hope only few are ignoring what could possibly stick the Miami Heat into a hole, either. I'm already running across members who have yet to give one single post about the Heat's potential problems, which is why practically 75-80% of the NBA's fanbase is upset. Not just Lakers or Knicks fans.

[Nitro]

So he should've done it in 2006, after he won his NBA championship, but he didn't.

 

Which in the end is irrelevant because the Miami Heat aren't going to be playing in a Euro-league next season. If Wade has proven he can lead a team to an NBA championship with one of the worst supporting casts in Finals history, then anything you bring up about Wade/Bosh/LeBron needing Kobe to win Gold in the Olympics means nothing. At all.

 

You can play the numbers game all you want. Jordan didn't lead the last three championship teams in those NBA Finals, obviously...and it's a given that Wade and LeBron didn't need Kobe in 2008, because they matured and were so much more improved from 2006 to 2008.

 

Why do you keep bringing up Jordan and the Bulls? Jordan wasn't getting outscored by Pippen and shooting 21% worse from the field and 15% worse from the 3pt line. Jordan's effect on the Bulls is really non-comparable to Kobe's on Team USA. Two completely different roles, completely different productivity, different levels of supporting talent, and different leagues.

 

It's not that Wade/Bron didn't need Kobe, but he needed them as just as much, especially Wade. Kobe's role on the team was much more from an emotional leadership standpoint than his actual play. Same thing with Kidd to a lesser degree. Of course Kobe came up big in the clutch in the Gold Medal game, but ignoring Wade's 20 1st half points is ridiculous. He kept the team in the game. It's like how you bash Fisher for coming up clutch but playing poorly the first 43min. It's not a perfect analogy, but for the game Wade had as much to do with the win as Kobe.

 

Nobody is dismissing how good the team will be, once again. But I hope only few are ignoring what could possibly stick the Miami Heat into a hole, either. I'm already running across members who have yet to give one single post about the Heat's potential problems, which is why practically 75-80% of the NBA's fanbase is upset. Not just Lakers or Knicks fans.

 

As I said before, if I was just aimlessly sticking up for the trio and ignoring Miami's potential problems, I would have dissected your entire post. But the whole Team USA comment is what was wrong and misleading, and a really bad way to discredit how good this trio could/will be.

 

I'll wait until Miami actually fills out their roster before saying they can beat LA in a 7-game series. But, to get back onto the topic of the Heat, it won't take a ton to find a big body to grab some boards and alter some shots. I'm also waiting to see if Riley really wants to pursue using LeBron at PG, because that will have a Magic Johnson effect for the team in rebounding (Magic is the reason those Lakers teams killed teams on the boards, even after Kareem was over-the-hill and grabbing 5 boards a game). No one will have a decent indication of how good this team will be until the playoffs, and their 2nd full year of being together.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Nitro1118

[Real Deal]

In other words, it's all irrelevant, and there's no reason discussing the trio...

[Nitro]

In other words, it's all irrelevant, and there's no reason discussing the trio...

 

No, there's no reason relevance to bringing up that Wade/Bron/Bosh only won a Bronze 'till Kobe came onto the team (and Kidd...and Williams...and Redd...and Boozer...and Prince...).

 

But I'm sure you know how ridiculous some of the points you made regarding that were, so I'm not even going to bother debating it anymore.

[Real Deal]

No, there's no reason relevance to bringing up that Wade/Bron/Bosh only won a Bronze 'till Kobe came onto the team (and Kidd...and Williams...and Redd...and Boozer...and Prince...).

 

But I'm sure you know how ridiculous some of the points you made regarding that were, so I'm not even going to bother debating it anymore.

You are the one bringing up the fact that the team isn't even assembled yet, saying you really have no idea if they can win it all or not, hinting that you're questioning why I'm even talking about it. So why are you talking about it?

 

The thing is, I have something that displays what LeBron, Wade and Bosh can do together without Bryant and Kidd leading the way. It's called the 2006 World Championships.

 

What's your example? What makes you think they will be top dog in the East? What event can show they can all three play on the same team together? Anything at all?

[Nitro]

You are the one bringing up the fact that the team isn't even assembled yet, saying you really have no idea if they can win it all or not, hinting that you're questioning why I'm even talking about it. So why are you talking about it?

 

I'm talking about you using the 2006 World Championships and 2008 Olympics as examples as to why the trio may fail. I brought up and quoted nothing else.

 

The thing is, I have something that displays what LeBron, Wade and Bosh can do together without Bryant and Kidd leading the way. It's called the 2006 World Championships.

 

Again, that was 4 years ago in a totally different league, totally different make-up of the team, totally different role players (from the 2008 Olympics AND next year's Heat roster), different coaching staff, different competition, etc...

 

That team also had, what, 10-15 games to get everything together for the semi's? With that much talent? The biggest reason the 2008 Team USA worked was because they had the 2007 FIBA America's and a 2008 exhibition schedule to gain chemistry. This Heat team will have training camp, pre-season, an 82 game regular season and anywhere from 8-14 playoff games before they really get tested. And they will have a lot less talent/ego's to mesh than the USA teams did.

 

What's your example? What makes you think they will be top dog in the East? What event can show they can all three play on the same team together? Anything at all?

 

What's my example? There is no example... the roster isn't nearly completed and we haven't seen these three players play together in an NBA venue. I can make educated guesses as to what they will accomplish, but there is no solid evidence to go off of. Trying to make something out of nothing by using the 2006 World's is just wrong.

 

And IMO Wade being able to lead the Heat to a championship is a lot more proof that this team will work than the 2006 World's being proof that they won't work.