Hedo for Barbosa?

[Real Deal]

Without going too deep into the debate, it's basically the argument that Hedo will or will not have the ball at certain points in the offense...and the FIRST question is, will that change his game for the better, or disable his ability to contribute altogether?

 

As I said earlier, Phoenix is looking for a third point guard. It's an indication that Nash is going to get less playing time, or less ball-handling duties. What else tells me that? Hedo to Phoenix.

 

So you can assume that Turkoglu will be involved, but now we're asking just how much. In Orlando, Hedo did push the offense. He played like a true point-forward. The Raptors had two point guards that were comfortable running the offense...but not as comfortable as Nash, and because Phoenix lives off of Nash's playmaking skills, and the fact that he's one of the greatest playmakers to ever lace up a pair of shoes, there's a big chance Turkoglu will be getting the ball even less.

[GoldenBaller]

Turk would have been one of our only scorers, and now he's gone. He struggled last year because he is normally used to playing with 3 stars on his team, makes it easy to look good. Howard, Nelson, Lewis.

[Real Deal]

Turk would have been one of our only scorers, and now he's gone. He struggled last year because he is normally used to playing with 3 stars on his team, makes it easy to look good. Howard, Nelson, Lewis.

Could be a good thing, though. It's not a reach to say the Raptors can be a decent defensive team in the next 2-3 seasons, and developing the young players is always a plus.

[GoldenBaller]

Could be a good thing, though. It's not a reach to say the Raptors can be a decent defensive team in the next 2-3 seasons, and developing the young players is always a plus.

Young for sure. Hard to develop with a Bad coach and no star though.

[Built Ford Tough]

Young for sure. Hard to develop with a Bad coach and no star though.

 

Triano isn't really cut out to be a head coach, but he is a pretty good coach when it comes to player development. He was integral in Bosh's improvements coming into each season and worked very closely with him. Bargnani has played much better under him than he did under Sam Mitchell as well.

 

Don't just look at the head coach when it comes to player development though.

 

Eric Hughes has done wonders with both DeRozan and Weems since they came to the team last season. Weems was absolutely awful for the first couple of months of the season and was considered to be a border line NBA player. Now he is looking like a promising backup shooting guard who could potentially be a starter if he continues improving at this rate. DeRozan has praised Hughes for helping him grow as a player as well. I know it is only Summer League, but he is looking like a completely different player from when he was drafted and even from the end of this past season.

 

Also, I don't remember where I read it but Jack has praised Alvin Williams for helping him grow as a point guard and as a leader.

 

Alex English is a wealth of offensive knowledge as well and I'm sure he has played a part in the growth of Raptor players over the past few years.

 

As for the comment about having no star on the team, that could be a negative as players could be thrust into situations that they aren't comfortable with like having to create their own shot in the final seconds of a tied game, but it could also be viewed as a positive attribute for developing the young players. Guys like DeRozan, Weems, Johnson and Davis are all going to have increased roles on the team because of not having a star on the team which could be good for their long term development. They still have somebody like Jack to handle the crunch time playmaking and to ease some of the pressue so it isn't all bad.

 

Trading Turkoglu for Barbosa is clearly a backwards move in terms of talent, but considering the direction that this team is headed in and the difference in salaries, it is about as much as I can hope for. The Raptors shed long term salary and managed to increase their odds in the Harrison Barnes Sweepstakes. Sounds good to me.

[Check my Stats]

We have all the pieces set up for to put around a superstar at any position if we are bottom 3 this year, that would be awesome, the entire culture of the team is being transformed. The Euro experiment is all but officially over, our team is littered with athletic players who can run the floor, the addition of Kleiza is a nice tough nosed player along with potential Dorsey as well.

 

Also Poe always puts words in my mouth, I said that Hedo was unhappy last year with Jose holding the ball so much, from his perspective this kind of sucks (apparently not though since he waived his trade kicker) because he will probably hold it even less. I never even said that he would be worse next to Nash, I just said their skillsets don't particularly compliment one another, which I didn't think was too far fetched, but apparently it was.

 

And yes I will admit I almost disagree with him 95% of the time, besides his T-mac comment the other day. Also Poe is Barbosa the type of value you expected we would get for Hedo? I thought he had trade value around the league?

 

Also in regards to Triano I don't think he is a terribly bad coach, I think it is unfortunate that he is pretty much BC's puppet though. He was really solid in developing Demar this past year and slowly helping get used to the league, hopefully he just throws him to the wolves this year though.

 

Bargnani became better almost instantly playing under Triano opposed to Smitch (admittedly this might say more about Bargs than Triano -_- ). I think he is a solid x's and o's guy, but I think he is way too soft to be an NBA coach, our players clearly didn't respect him (clearly evident in Hedo) and there were hardly any repercussions for bad plays, especially on the defensive end.

 

Overall he obviously isn't great, or even ideal, but I think we could do a lot worse.

Edited July 15, 2010 by travesy3

[Poe]

I wasn't implying that Turkoglu won't be able to play alongside Nash because I don't think it is possible for a player to play alongside Nash and not play up to their capabilities or beyond. I was simply pointing out that Turkoglu was upset about not handling the ball enough this past season and he is going to a team with a more ball dominant point guard so it is understandable why somebody would think that Turkoglu might not exactly be thrilled playing with Nash. I don't think it will be that much of a problem considering Nash is a much, much better player than either Calderon or Jack and will get Turkoglu the ball more, but it is a valid question, at least as far as I am concerned.

 

The Suns have a history of success in their organization, so I'm going to generally believe that they know what they are doing with the moves they make.

 

And looking at Gentry's interview, it appears that they had a clear purpose in adding Turkoglu to the team, and it's to make use of Nash as a shooter rather than a playmaker. It is exactly what I imagined when acquiring Hedo, and why I said that USG% means nothing because both players will adjust.

 

While Nash IS one of the greatest playmakers of all time, he is also one of the greatest shooters of all time. The Suns wish to utilize that, but in order to do so, they need a player of another position who can make plays... like Hedo.

 

I'm confident when I say that Hedo is going to do just fine in a Suns uniform. Much better than he did in Toronto, cause the problem there is that he simply did not fit with the team. With the Suns, he's going to have a clear defined role. Whether he'll go back to the way he was in Orlando is uncertain, but I believe he's going to have a very good year there regardless.

 

 

I never said that Turkoglu isn't a good spot up shooter, I was saying that he is more effective at shooting off of the bounce, off of a screen and roll situation or coming off of an off the ball screen. I didn't say that he was terrible as a spot up shooter but he isn't a great spot up shooter either, which is exactly why I said so I don't get why you are acting like I called him a terrible shooter or something.

 

While Turkoglu is more affective as a shooter off the dribble, he is also affective as a spot up shooter. What he's not affective at are things like defense and bringing energy.

 

And travesy never said Turkoglu can't shoot nor did he say that he is going to suck in Phoenix because of NASH. He said that Turkoglu isn't as effective as a spot up shooter than he is with the ball in his hands, which is pretty much a fact and he said that if he was unhappy with his lack of a ball handling role in Toronto than he may hate playing for the Suns considering how ball dominant Nash is.

 

You are reading into mine and travesy's comments too much here and you are trying to jump to conclusions that simply aren't there.

 

Huh??????

 

Then what's this?

Hedo in Phoenix is even worse than Toronto from his perspective, especially with Bosh gone, hahaha, Nash holds the ball more and Hedo would hold it even less than he did here.

 

Is it just me, or did he say that Hedo is going to suck in Phoenix because of Nash? He sucked in Toronto right? So if he's going to do worse in Pheonix, then that means he's.... not.... going to suck? And also, Nash is going to have nothing to do with him sucking right? I'm confused...

 

 

Oh, and what's this?

And Poe you clearly don't know what makes Hedo a potentially effective player, I'll give you a hint, it isn't his spot up shooting.

 

Seriously, do you guys read your own comments?

 

 

Also, check this out.

This is what was interesting to me on this read, if they are serious about playing Nash off the ball some, then bringing in Hedo could really pay off for them. Hedo passing to Nash for the shot would equal more success than Nash passing to Hedo for the shot. Anyways I have no doubt that Hedo will see an increase in his PPG, his efficiency will definitely leave a lot to be desired but due to the extra usage (probably) and definitely more shots, he will definitely gets his points back.

 

What do you know? It turns out he changed his mind, and agrees with me after all

 

 

By the sounds of it, travesy knows a lot more about basketball than your mom though. You may not like the guy or see eye-to-eye with him, but to basically flat out say that he knows nothing about basketball simply because you two seem to clash about everything is pretty sad. I don't agree with you on everything but you won't see me throw out comments like that simply because I share a difference of opinion as you do.

 

My point was that because one person has watched a team more than the other doesn't mean they know more about the team, and even if the fan did know more, it doesn't mean that just because I watched the Raptors less than you guys that I can't have an opinion on the team or their players.

 

 

And relating to travesy's basketball knowledge, in all seriousness, I'd say it's pretty decent. I'm not claiming to know more or less than him or anyone on this site, but when he is constantly throwing out ignorant comments, laughs at people who disagree with him, and calls anyone who argues with him an idiot, then I'm going to say some things to tick him off a bit. I really don't care about my image on the internet.

[Poe]

And yes I will admit I almost disagree with him 95% of the time, besides his T-mac comment the other day. Also Poe is Barbosa the type of value you expected we would get for Hedo? I thought he had trade value around the league?

 

I said he had some value, and it appears that the Suns wish to put him in an even larger role than he had in Toronto.

 

And the Raptors DID get value for him. Barbosa has slowed down a little bit due to injury IIRC, but he still consistently averages 20 points per 36 minutes on about 58% true shooting percentage, to the exception of just last year where the true shooting dropped to about 53% (while still averaging 19 points per 36 minutes).

 

Since last year was his only down year to that regard, we should expect a very solid comeback season next year, especially if he has an improved role like we should expect in a team like the Raptors.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Poe

[GoldenBaller]

Wow, you guys write a lot here

[Check my Stats]

You are clearly misinterpreting my posts. I said the reason it was worse for him (from his personal perspective), because he would probably have the ball less, I didn't say he would have a worse year lol.. with the extra shots he will get he will get more points on his usual 41%. I just said, from his perspective, I asusmed he would be less happy with the ball in his hands potentially even less.

 

In regards to his spot up shooting, his spot up shooting ISN'T what makes him an effective player, I don't know what else to say to you if you think his shooting is what makes him the player that was signed to a 50 million dollar deal. It is a part of his game, but it isn't his strength which is all I was saying lol. Hedo, like BFT said, is better shooting off the dribble and working off screens, opposed to taking a pass from Nash and launching a 3... he is at his best with the ball in his hands, not playing off of others.

 

I don't see how I changed my mind, I initially said (after news on this deal broke a while ago) that Hedo would be playing even more off the ball, which I figured wouldn't make him happy. After reading that article it seems they are going to play Nash more off-ball than I initially expected, but it didn't change my opinion.

 

I don't call people who disagree with me and have valid points idiots, if BFT disagreed with me I wouldn't call him an idiot because I can see what he is saying... but if you are going to sit here and tell me that Hedo is at his best as a spot up shooter, chances are I will call you an idiot.

 

You seem to read my posts and take different meanings from them than I intend, I will try and make my posts more straight forward to you from now on so you stop taking them the wrong way. Anyways I am done rambling on, I hate making posts this long.

Edited July 16, 2010 by travesy3