WK9: Indianapolis @ Philadelphia

[AboveLegit]

What are you arguing?

 

Helmet to helmet hits are 15 yard penalties and automatic first downs. There is no circumstance involved with the penalty, if you strike an offensive player in the helmet with your helmet, it is 15 yards.

 

Coleman struck Collie in the helmet with his helmet.

I'm arguing that the call was BS and the rule should be re-evaluated.

 

There's a difference between a defender leading with his helmet and intentionally hitting someone and a defender leading with his shoulder. The league cannot be throwing the flag every time something goes wrong.

[fish7718]

I'm arguing that the call was BS and the rule should be re-evaluated.

 

There's a difference between a defender leading with his helmet and intentionally hitting someone and a defender leading with his shoulder. The league cannot be throwing the flag every time something goes wrong.

The rule is you aren't supposed to lead with your helmet, and that is for everyone's safety, it is not a BS rule at all. It may have been incorrectly called here, may not have been. Either way the rule is fine, and blown calls happen every game. Do you want to get rid of pass interference everytime that is incorrectly called?

Edited November 7, 2010 by STATCity

[NomarFachix]

The league has flagged helmet to helmet hits on every noticeable occurrence for years. You are noticing that because of the added emphasis lately, but that has always been a penalty.

 

You cannot make 15 yard helmet to helmet hits a judgment call for many reasons. It becomes far too subjective.

[Phightins]

Andy Reid challenge fail. Someone really needs to hide his red flags before the games.

[AboveLegit]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I understand your side of the argument completely, but I just want to see the league be a little more careful about what they call, and am pretty tired of all these injuries affecting the decisions of refs.

[NomarFachix]

We definitely will have to a-to-d, because helmet to helmet hits are flagged on a regular basis from year to year regardless of injury. The flag was out on the hit, they didn't throw it because Collie was laying on the ground.

 

If anything, I think the fans are the ones overreacting because of the whole "new enforcement policy". This 15 yard penalty had nothing to do with that.

[EastCoastNiner]

The rule is you aren't supposed to lead with your helmet, and that is for everyone's safety, it is not a BS rule at all. It may have been incorrectly called here, may not have been. Either way the rule is fine, and blown calls happen every game. Do you want to get rid of pass interference everytime that is incorrectly called?

 

Terrible comparison. Tell me how many players have been suspended or fined for P.I.?

[NomarFachix]

Terrible comparison. Tell me how many players have been suspended or fined for P.I.?

 

We are talking about the 15 yard in-game penalty, you bring up suspensions and fines. Great debate style.

[fish7718]

Imagine the Colts win now...

[Lkr]

Imagine the Colts win now...

abovelegit would complain so much

[Cobb]

Two brilliant calls right there for the Eagles to seal up the win.

[AboveLegit]

abovelegit would complain so much

Actually the exact opposite. -_-

[Cobb]

I was wondering why Garcon didn't have but one catch all day. <_<

[AboveLegit]

I had a feeling Asante would pick off Manning, I just knew it. [expletive].

[Cobb]

Vick is still > Kolb right?

[Phightins]

Vick is still > Kolb right?

 

He is, but unless Vick leads them to a Super Bowl, playing Vick over Kolb is still a stupid decision.

[Flash]

That call was BRUTAL. He wasn't defenseless. He secured the football and took 2 steps. At that point he is considered a runner and helmet to helmet contact is allowed. The refs made a judgement call, ruling that Collie was not yet a runner so helmet to helmet contact isn't allowed. Simple as that, the refs messed up that call. There should have been no flag and it should've been a fumble. Its clear as day on the replay.

 

Oh, and is there still any doubt as to who the Eagles QB should be?

[fish7718]

Oh, and is there still any doubt as to who the Eagles QB should be?

It amazes me how you are still missing the point of why Kolb should be the QB instead of Vick. I think it's been drilled into your head thousands of times by Phightins yet you still don't understand. Let me explain it fully for you one last time so we don't have hear the Vick vs Kolb debate anymore. The eagles plan this year was go with youth. So they let Sheldon Brown walk and they trade McNabb and aquried as many picks as they could to build one of the youngest rosters in football. They did this, so in 3-4 yeas the Eagles will be competing for a superbowl again. Now with Vick here, they aren't competing for the superbowl, they are a play off contender sure, but they are nothing more than a wild card team living on a dream. Which is what they were last year. If they wanted to be the same team as last year they could have kept McNabb, instead they decided to let Kolb their 2nd round draft pick not to long ago, 36th overall, build chemistry with the young core of players. So in 3-4 years when Jackson Maclin Celek McCoy and Kolb know each other like the brothers they can be a power house. Now instead with Vick, you are prolonging the sense of mediocrity while at the same time offering killing your future with Kolb. Unless you really expect Vick to be same QB at 34-35. That is why Kolb is the answer to this team. Yes Vick has been incredible and if he played the whole year he would actually be an MVP candidate, but the Eagles simply do not have the pieces on their team to win a super bowl right now. Their defense is way too young and inexperienced, and their line is in need of a bit of patching up. However sacrificing these couple years let the defense grow and come into it's own and sure up the line was the plan when they traded McNabb. So they made a plan, and went back on it, it's quite laughable to me as a Cowboys fan, although we are the laughing stock of the NFL.

Edited November 8, 2010 by STATCity

[Flash]

They just beat the Colts dude. The Colts are a great team. There's a ton of parity in the NFL this year as wll. They aren't 5-3 by chance. They have a very legit shot at 11-5 and a first round bye depending on those games against the Giants.

 

I know the plan was going young with Kolb, but if Vick is playing this well I don't see how you can go against him. He's simply the better option.

[Lone Wolf]

The Colts are missing a LOT of key players due to injuries.

[Real Deal]

To be honest, I've seen enough of Kolb to know he won't lead that team to a Super Bowl, so you might as well win as many games as possible.

 

Is it a reach to think that Vick can lead the Eagles out of the wildcard game (assuming they play it)? If we're talking a seven-game series, probably so...but this is much different.

 

Question: after beating Atlanta (granted it was with Kolb), what indication do you have that the Eagles can't find their way into the NFC championship game? They may not be the favorites to get there, but look who was at the beginning of the season, and how it didn't take much to change that.

 

I think that, if Kolb isn't showing the potential to be as great as one of the previous SB champs (Brees, Ben, the Mannings, Brady), and if your team can get into the playoffs, you focus on winning. Vick is playing like an MVP candidate. In fact, he's throwing the ball better than he ever has in his career, BY FAR, and he can still give you 50-60 yards a game on the ground, which is what he was doing back in the early 2000s with Atlanta.

 

That particular player is scary with the ball in his hands. Throw Manning and Brady out of the question, and suddenly, it's hard to argue against Vick as being the deadliest weapon at QB in the league.

 

I don't see why anyone would want to play Kolb at this point. Not when Vick is doing better than he ever did when he was in his prime. Yeah, you made a mistake by paying him and dropping Donovan, but sometimes, you have to accept your mistakes and move on, not live off of them and hoping they correct themselves.

[fish7718]

They just beat the Colts dude. The Colts are a great team. There's a ton of parity in the NFL this year as wll. They aren't 5-3 by chance. They have a very legit shot at 11-5 and a first round bye depending on those games against the Giants.

 

I know the plan was going young with Kolb, but if Vick is playing this well I don't see how you can go against him. He's simply the better option.

The colts are not a good team at all right now, their defense is atrocious and their offense is completely one dimensional. Philly was playing at home and should have won that game especially when you consider the one thing the colts do well is cripplled with injuries to Dallas Scott Austin Collie and Anthony Gonzalez. The Eagles are mediocre right now just look at who they beat and who they lost to. There is a lot of parity true but the best plan for a team like the Eaglesnia to build on their young players and break through that parity.

[NomarFachix]

That call was BRUTAL. He wasn't defenseless. He secured the football and took 2 steps. At that point he is considered a runner and helmet to helmet contact is allowed. The refs made a judgement call, ruling that Collie was not yet a runner so helmet to helmet contact isn't allowed. Simple as that, the refs messed up that call. There should have been no flag and it should've been a fumble. Its clear as day on the replay.

 

"Existing rule 12, 2, 7g bans "using any part of a player's helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/hairline parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily," and also states, "violent or unnecessary use of the helmet is impermissible against any opponent."”

 

It was an illegal hit, regardless of whether Collie was defenseless or not. Helmet to helmet hits aren't just outlawed on defenseless receivers... smh.

Edited November 8, 2010 by IllWill21

[Phightins]

To me, that rule is in place to guard against guys leading with their helmet, hitting with malicious intent. This hit doesn't really fall into that though. It's pretty clear that the helmet to helmet contact was unintentional, since Coleman was clearly leading with his shoulder. There was no unnecessary, violent spearing, butting, etc. Totally unfortunate that the result of the hit was what it was, but it was legal. No malicious intent.

 

As for Kolb/Vick...don't feel like touching that one again, I've explained my stance time and time again, and Fish pretty much nailed it in his post. If the Eagles had a Super Bowl caliber team around the quarterback, then perhaps I'd feel a bit differently. Then I would be OK with using the "win now" guy in attempt to make a run for the championship. Don't see it with this team. As a fan of this team, I am trying to be realistic. I have their future in mind, 3-4 years down the line. Playing Vick right now is doing nothing to help that future. Give the kid a shot. If he is given a fair shot to prove himself and he fails, then we know that they need to find a new "QB of the future". Won't find out either way with him on the bench.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Phightins

[fish7718]

To be honest, I've seen enough of Kolb to know he won't lead that team to a Super Bowl, so you might as well win as many games as possible.

 

Is it a reach to think that Vick can lead the Eagles out of the wildcard game (assuming they play it)? If we're talking a seven-game series, probably so...but this is much different.

 

Question: after beating Atlanta (granted it was with Kolb), what indication do you have that the Eagles can't find their way into the NFC championship game? They may not be the favorites to get there, but look who was at the beginning of the season, and how it didn't take much to change that.

 

I think that, if Kolb isn't showing the potential to be as great as one of the previous SB champs (Brees, Ben, the Mannings, Brady), and if your team can get into the playoffs, you focus on winning. Vick is playing like an MVP candidate. In fact, he's throwing the ball better than he ever has in his career, BY FAR, and he can still give you 50-60 yards a game on the ground, which is what he was doing back in the early 2000s with Atlanta.

 

That particular player is scary with the ball in his hands. Throw Manning and Brady out of the question, and suddenly, it's hard to argue against Vick as being the deadliest weapon at QB in the league.

 

I don't see why anyone would want to play Kolb at this point. Not when Vick is doing better than he ever did when he was in his prime. Yeah, you made a mistake by paying him and dropping Donovan, but sometimes, you have to accept your mistakes and move on, not live off of them and hoping they correct themselves.

When has Vick ever lead a team to the NFC Championship game?

 

It's not even Vick I don't have confidence in, it's the defense that doesn't have what it takes to lead them deep into the playoffs. Their offense is great right now, but it's going to take Vick playing amazing every game in the playoffs (all of which will be on the road) to get this team to the super bowl.

 

I don't see how you say you've seen enough of Kolb to say he won't lead a team to the super bowl. The guy has completed 4 games in his entire career and he's 3-1. If Sanchez/Johnson/Dilfer can lead a team to a super bowl anyone can't. Given the Eagles don't and may not have a defense of that standing for years but Kolb is certainly more talented than the former 3. Until you give Kolb 1-2 full years I don't think you can make an accurate assessment of him. Look at Eli Manning, a lot of people in NY wanted him gone after his first 2 or 3 years, he won a super bowl.