Is Johnson good enough for Atlanta?

[Real Deal]

Looking down the roster, you have decent second and third options...

 

Josh Smith

Al Horford

Jamal Crawford

Mike Bibby

 

But where does Joe Johnson fit in, really? Is he a legit primary option, or is he better suited as someone's sidekick? Is this why the Hawks struggle so much come playoff time?

[Big Penny]

i don't know about JJ... the way i look at him, is he's not good enough to be a legit first option, but he's too good to be a second option. i think, he would perform best as a joint first option, where him and whoever they decided to pair him with both got around the same amount of shots per game (which is why he should have teamed up with Derrick Rose). unfortunately, unless Al Horford develops into a 20PPG Low Post killer, i don't see the Hawks ever winning much.

[Poe]

I never understood why Atlanta has been a good team in the first place. I'm just waiting for their downfall but it never seems to come. Perhaps I'm underestimating their players, but one thing is for certain, they need to find a legitimate first option if they are to ever truly contend.

 

 

Johnson is ideally a second option. He's way too overpaid now, though. They better hope the 30-year-old hasn't peaked yet.

 

None of the other players fit as a first option. Not Crawford, not Smith, and definitely not Horford. Horford is suited best as a 4th or 5th man for a championship callibur team (at his natural PF position). Smith is ideally a third option, at least once he gains a decent jumper so he can play his own natural position as an SF. And Crawford, of course, fits best as a sixth man.

 

If the Hawks are to ever become real contenders, they need a dominant center. If they can gain a Dwight Howard type of player, then you can only imagine the possibilities. I'm not sure if they can afford it anytime soon though, or be able to obtain such a player without losing great value in return, which would otherwise be the pieces to complete the championship aspired team. They better hope to luck out on a late draft pick.

[*Swish*]

No. Johnson is not enough for them to go far in the playoffs. I could never imagine them winning a championship with the asme core they're having right now. Johnson, Smith, Crawford, Bibby and Horford are great players but they're surely not enough to make the Atlanta Hawks win a ring or even bring them to the finals.

[Real Deal]

Horford is suited best as a 4th or 5th man for a championship callibur team (at his natural PF position).

That bad? I don't know about that. Just watching him at the four (when he played it every now and then, wasn't too often), he was pretty effective.

 

By the numbers, his PER was 28.7 and allowed PER was 9.3...which is amazing, but of course, it comes with playing limited minutes at that position. And it is PER.

 

But we're talking a guy that put up 14/10 on 55% FG in the regular season, and doing it behind Johnson, Crawford and Smith.

 

People are high on Andrew Bynum and his post skills, saying he'd be an all-star if he wasn't always injured, but Horford's numbers are just as impressive, and his defense is actually better (Drew suffers from a lot of defensive lapses due to missing brain cells, and partially because he has to keep an eye on Fisher's man every game).

 

I could definitely see a team winning it all with Horford playing third scoring option. Second might be a stretch, depending on who you have around him (a trio of Melo, Horford and CP3 could at least get into the Finals even if Horford had more FGA than Paul).

[Cobb]

I never understood why Atlanta has been a good team in the first place. I'm just waiting for their downfall but it never seems to come. Perhaps I'm underestimating their players, but one thing is for certain, they need to find a legitimate first option if they are to ever truly contend.

 

 

Johnson is ideally a second option. He's way too overpaid now, though. They better hope the 30-year-old hasn't peaked yet.

 

None of the other players fit as a first option. Not Crawford, not Smith, and definitely not Horford. Horford is suited best as a 4th or 5th man for a championship callibur team (at his natural PF position). Smith is ideally a third option, at least once he gains a decent jumper so he can play his own natural position as an SF. And Crawford, of course, fits best as a sixth man.

 

If the Hawks are to ever become real contenders, they need a dominant center. If they can gain a Dwight Howard type of player, then you can only imagine the possibilities. I'm not sure if they can afford it anytime soon though, or be able to obtain such a player without losing great value in return, which would otherwise be the pieces to complete the championship aspired team. They better hope to luck out on a late draft pick.

This.

[Check my Stats]

Hawks have always been one of my favourite teams, I think Joe Johnson is an awesome player but he is definitely best suited for a 2nd option offensive player, him and LBJ in Chicago would have been awesome with Rose. But I think Joe is definitely talented enough to make this team at least in the contending discussion if he has a near perfect cast around him, kind of like Pierce before the big 3.

 

I really don't think this team is that far off, they have a lot of offensive weapons, an upgrade at the C would do wonders because it would shift Josh to the 3, Horford to the 4 and they would be so much better on the glass with Josh at the 3, that is a huge advantage. I think they need a new PG badly, a team like LA can get away with Fisher at PG but Bibby is done and they need to send him to the bench. A big like Chandler (pre injury) would do wonders for them as well. A point like Blake is someone they should have targeted, or even Ridnour. A point who hits his shots and plays solid D is all they need.

 

I don't think they need a Dwight Howard type player (lol honestly who doesn't?) to become contenders, if they aren't 'contenders' already, I think a few upgrades in the rotation, role players, would do wonders for this team. I mean they won 53 games last year so they obviously don't need to be overhauled, they already have the core set in place, they just need better complimentary players. A few tweaks and this could be a team pushing for a finals appearance or at least an ECF appearance vs Miami.

 

I don't think they need another all-star, just a really solid PG and C.

[Poe]

That bad? I don't know about that. Just watching him at the four (when he played it every now and then, wasn't too often), he was pretty effective.

 

By the numbers, his PER was 28.7 and allowed PER was 9.3...which is amazing, but of course, it comes with playing limited minutes at that position. And it is PER.

 

But we're talking a guy that put up 14/10 on 55% FG in the regular season, and doing it behind Johnson, Crawford and Smith.

 

People are high on Andrew Bynum and his post skills, saying he'd be an all-star if he wasn't always injured, but Horford's numbers are just as impressive, and his defense is actually better (Drew suffers from a lot of defensive lapses due to missing brain cells, and partially because he has to keep an eye on Fisher's man every game).

 

I could definitely see a team winning it all with Horford playing third scoring option. Second might be a stretch, depending on who you have around him (a trio of Melo, Horford and CP3 could at least get into the Finals even if Horford had more FGA than Paul).

 

 

Well first off, Bynum and Horford's situations are a bit different. Horford is the 4th scoring option (though the third best player) on a second round playoff team, and Bynum is the third option on a championship team. Also, Bynum brings a certain dimension to the Lakers that helps give the team an added advantage other than talent, and that's his length.

 

Horford is a good player individually, scores efficiently, and also defends well, though he isn't a true star. If Horford is to be the third best player on a championship team, that team better be extremely well rounded like the '04 Pistons. Comparing to recent championship teams like the Lakers, I doubt if I swapped Bynum and Horford that the Lakers would still have won. If I swapped a fourth option player like Perkins for Horford in the 08 Celtics, they would have almost definitely still have won a championship.

 

 

Also, say if you replaced Horford with Bynum on the Hawks, they would most likely become a better team. Bynum would be the second or even the first option, and the team may even run their offense through him and JJ. They wouldn't be a championship team quite yet, but perhaps having Bynum in the paint, they would have fared better against the Magic.

 

 

I'm not saying Horford is a bad player at all, though when comparing to championship teams, you have to set the bar high. Horford would be a great 4th player to have for any team. A filthy rich man's version of Udonis Haslem.

[Poe]

I don't think they need a Dwight Howard type player (lol honestly who doesn't?) to become contenders, if they aren't 'contenders' already, I think a few upgrades in the rotation, role players, would do wonders for this team. I mean they won 53 games last year so they obviously don't need to be overhauled, they already have the core set in place, they just need better complimentary players. A few tweaks and this could be a team pushing for a finals appearance or at least an ECF appearance vs Miami.

 

I was just giving an example of a dominant center. Try a player like Andrew Bogut, Andrew Bynum, Brook Lopez, Greg Oden, Marc Gasol, or a better developed Roy Hibbert or DeMarcus Cousins. If they can add a player like any of those, then that will bring them a giant step closer to competing for a championship.

 

Better role players can help them get back to the second round at best. They need a first or second option big. Their point guard need is secondary.

[Nitro]

The Hawks have 2 major issues...

 

1) As mentioned before, Joe Johnson is not a championship caliber 1st option. He's a poor man's Tracy McGrady from 2-3 years ago. He's simply not talented or assertive enough to will a team to victory on a consistent basis in a playoff atmosphere. Often times, he'll dissapear. His skill-sets are best suited to play off a big man while being able to set-up the offense, create shots for others and sometimes create for himself.

 

2) Al Horford and Josh Smith are both natural PF's. I know most people think Smith should be playing SF, but playing him there is not how you will get the most effectiveness out of him. Offensively it is a mistake because he has no jumpshot to speak of (especially from long-range...he hit ZERO 3's all of last season) and it takes away from his athletic advantage when he plays at PF. Defensively it doesn't make sense because if you draw him away from the basket, his impressive rebounding shot-blocking numbers will plummet. As for Horford, he's a bit undersized at Center and his style of play would be better suited at PF (although he's a very good post-up defender at the C position). Because of this issue as the team is currently constructed, they are always gonna have some issues in the frontcourt and won't get the maximum effectiveness from both players.

[Poe]

2) Al Horford and Josh Smith are both natural PF's. I know most people think Smith should be playing SF, but playing him there is not how you will get the most effectiveness out of him. Offensively it is a mistake because he has no jumpshot to speak of (especially from long-range...he hit ZERO 3's all of last season) and it takes away from his athletic advantage when he plays at PF. Defensively it doesn't make sense because if you draw him away from the basket, his impressive rebounding shot-blocking numbers will plummet. As for Horford, he's a bit undersized at Center and his style of play would be better suited at PF (although he's a very good post-up defender at the C position). Because of this issue as the team is currently constructed, they are always gonna have some issues in the frontcourt and won't get the maximum effectiveness from both players.

 

That's a good point. Trading either Smith or Horford for a shooter/wing defender, a point guard, or a center may be a good idea for the long term, rather than trying to force one player or the other to remain out of position.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Poe

[Nitro]

That's a good point. Trading either Smith or Horford for a shooter/wing defender, a point guard, or a center may be a good idea for the long term, rather than trying to force one player or the other to remain out of position.

 

I think it's really their only chance at doing anything in the next few years. They've had the same team for each of the last 3 post-seasons, and good coaching to make it all fit will only get them so far. Because Smith and Horford are so talented and young they could get some very nice value in return.

[Real Deal]

I love Smith as a help defender, but I'm not so fond of his on-ball defense, namely in the post area. It's obvious he doesn't have the strength to contain a back to the basket four.

 

I don't know his track record against guys like Garnett, though (I'd look it up, but it's not that important to me), but shooting forwards seem to have more trouble against him, from what I've seen when watching the Hawks. Someone like Duncan? I would think he drools at that match-up, although Duncan's knees/feet have been giving him trouble lately, which doesn't help against an athletic Smith.

 

But trade Smith for a center? That still leaves Joe Johnson as the primary option, correct?

[Nitro]

I love Smith as a help defender, but I'm not so fond of his on-ball defense, namely in the post area. It's obvious he doesn't have the strength to contain a back to the basket four.

 

I don't know his track record against guys like Garnett, though (I'd look it up, but it's not that important to me), but shooting forwards seem to have more trouble against him, from what I've seen when watching the Hawks. Someone like Duncan? I would think he drools at that match-up, although Duncan's knees/feet have been giving him trouble lately, which doesn't help against an athletic Smith.

 

When you got a tweener, there's always give and take. David Lee is a natural PF, but his speed and athleticism at C really gave him an advantage on offense last season. On defense? It killed him. Dwyane Wade was played at PG his rookie season and still gets spot minutes there, but he's a true SG. The only issue with him at SG is he's a tad short, and often times you will see a guy like Kobe have no issue getting the look he wants over him (to be fair, Wade does have a freakishly long wingspan).

 

My point is that you just have to live with the fact that Smith has a bit of trouble with good, post-up PF's. I'd rather give that up (especially since it's a skill that Smith could improve without having to grow any inches) than give up some of his rebounding and shot-blocking. If the Hawks feel what he gives up at PF is more than what Horford gives up at PF, maybe they should consider a trade. But all I know is you can't have a guy who plays major minutes not hit A SINGLE THREE an entire season play at SF. It just won't work.

 

trade Smith for a center? That still leaves Joe Johnson as the primary option, correct?

 

You gotta fix what you can fix. They gave $JJ a whole lotta money, which really restricts what they can do financially. Although I do think Atlanta is one of those teams that can make a pretty lucrative offer for CP3. If they could get Paul, $JJ's problems being an elite 1st option wouldn't be much of a big deal at all.

[Erick Blasco]

Two of the Hawks biggest problems I've found the past two years are heart and coaching. Their offense is iso-oriented which virtually never works against next-level defensive teams in the playoffs, and all they do on defense is switch everything, resulting in bad mismatches. Their team defensive concepts were also non-existent during the playoffs last year, with breakdown, after breakdown, after breakdown.

 

With their modus operandi being one-on-one play, naturally the team would go into a funk whenever things went against them. Teams that don't have outstanding team concepts are doomed to fail. Unfortunately, the Hawks have virtually the same roster going into next season.

 

As for the original question, JJ used to be really good. He can create his own jumper, get to the basket, he's a decent defender, an underrated playmaker, and he can shoot and post up. He looks old though. All those heavy minutes of him having to iso for himself look like they've zapped his legs. He's certainly not good enough for this Hawks team to win more than maybe one playoff series against a mediocre opponent.

 

Some of the suggestions made have been trading Horford or Smith. I agree with Nitro that Smith can't be Atlanta's three, but I disagree that Smith shouldn't be moved. He still doesn't understand help defensive concepts beyond selling out for blocks. There are clips all over NBAPlaybook during the Magic series of Smith botching pick-and-roll coverage.

 

Some of it is coaching, but players who've been in the league awhile (Smith is no longer a young pup) can't be so mistake prone, especially if they aren't good individual defenders and Smith is not. Like JJ, I'm not sure Smith is a title-caliber player.