Top 5 defenders

[*Swish*]

What's your top 5 defenders?

 

here is mine:

 

1. Ron Artest: Got to love how he's aggressive against the other team. He puts his body on the guy. GREAT defense. One of the best I ever saw. Just look at this video! he doesn't give ANY chance to Carmelo for a shot. I'll be always thankful to him for playing such a great defense in the finals against Pierce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOq5sH3b72g&feature=player_embedded

 

2. Shane Battier: A pure hustler. Plays amazing defense. Never gives up even though the guy beat him with a cross over. Got to love the guy's personality and defense. Just take a look at the 2009 playoffs when he played defense on Kobe. Stays strong with his feet and doesn't let Kobe drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4aDM5d27_w&feature=player_embedded

 

3. Dwight Howard: Nominated defensive player of the year once again because of all these unbelievable athletic blocks. Really hard to score against a strong, athletic big man like that. Never try to make a lay-up in his face. It won't work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cxCfBs0yZo&feature=player_embedded

 

4. Josh Smith: A little bit the same as Dwight Howard. Athletic power forward that doesn't let anything get to the hoop. Youngest player to get over 1000 blocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVCGa0YkAM&feature=player_embedded

 

5. Kobe Bryant: Even though he just turned 32 years old, he still has strong legs and plays amazing lock down defense. Him and Ron Artest playing defense is just great to have in the same team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps&feature=player_embedded

[ChosenOne]

It is real hard to disagree with any of those, but if I had to remove on I would take Josh Smith out of the top 5 and replace him with Gerald Wallace maybe.

[Poe]

One thing I'm noticing about Ron Artest is that he's terrific in bodying his man. He has the strength to stay close and not get pushed around by strong offensive players like Melo. It makes him a great defender against jumpshooters and post players, which are two of Melo's strongest areas to his offense.

 

Ron does have a pretty significant weakness to his defense and that's his inability to cut off the drive. He has difficulty staying in front of his man once the offensive player creates space, and it probably has a lot to do with his plantar fasciitis. Give credit to the Lakers help defense for being able to pick up on Melo so quickly when Ron gets beat.

[Real Deal]

1) Dwight Howard

Just seeing how much of an impact he has with the Magic's defensive scheme (look at some of the players they have who can't play defense), you have to stick him at #1.

 

2) Ron Artest

Should've been on the All-Defensive 1st Team. Very smart defender, excellent hands, very physical.

 

3) Kobe Bryant

If one person has to defend LeBron, I'm taking Bryant, especially if it's the last 24 seconds of a game. When he's not having to eye a second offensive threat (for Fisher), he's top three on-ball defense in the league. Not very many players can successfully defend three positions on the court, either, if those players are elite (Rondo, Wade, James).

 

4) Greg Oden

If he played a full season, he'd be nearly on the same level as Howard. Excellent help defender (not as good as Dwight), but a better on-ball defender than DH12.

 

5) Kirk Hinrich

Ask Wade. The only guard (point or two-guard) I've seen light Hinrich up when he's defending them for most of the game is Kobe Bryant. I believe Wade has dumped a lot of points on him once or twice, but he's also had a lot of trouble against him.

 

Rajon Rondo, Gerald Wallace, Thabo Sefolosha, Arron Afflalo, Anderson Varejao, Josh Smith, Tony Allen...all honorable mentions. I just can't say any of them are better defenders than Hinrich and Oden.

 

If Oden doesn't qualify because of his injuries, I'll move Kirk up one and give the fifth spot to Rajon Rondo, but Gerald Wallace is REALLY close.

[AboveLegit]

1) Dwight Howard

Just seeing how much of an impact he has with the Magic's defensive scheme (look at some of the players they have who can't play defense), you have to stick him at #1.

 

2) Ron Artest

Should've been on the All-Defensive 1st Team. Very smart defender, excellent hands, very physical.

 

3) Kobe Bryant

If one person has to defend LeBron, I'm taking Bryant, especially if it's the last 24 seconds of a game. When he's not having to eye a second offensive threat (for Fisher), he's top three on-ball defense in the league. Not very many players can successfully defend three positions on the court, either, if those players are elite (Rondo, Wade, James).

 

4) Greg Oden

If he played a full season, he'd be nearly on the same level as Howard. Excellent help defender (not as good as Dwight), but a better on-ball defender than DH12.

 

5) Kirk Hinrich

Ask Wade. The only guard (point or two-guard) I've seen light Hinrich up when he's defending them for most of the game is Kobe Bryant. I believe Wade has dumped a lot of points on him once or twice, but he's also had a lot of trouble against him.

 

Rajon Rondo, Gerald Wallace, Thabo Sefolosha, Arron Afflalo, Anderson Varejao, Josh Smith...all honorable mentions. I just can't say any of them are better defenders than Hinrich and Oden.

 

If Oden doesn't qualify because of his injuries, I'll move Kirk up one and give the fifth spot to Rajon Rondo, but Gerald Wallace is REALLY close.

Very solid list, but Oden over Perkins? Not sure about that.

[Real Deal]

Very solid list, but Oden over Perkins? Not sure about that.

Yeah, I gave it to Oden because he can move away from the rim and still play defense. You drag Perkins away from the rim, and suddenly, he's a fish out of the sea.

[AboveLegit]

Yeah, I gave it to Oden because he can move away from the rim and still play defense. You drag Perkins away from the rim, and suddenly, he's a fish out of the sea.

But at the same time, how many centers force Perkins to move outside the paint? With his role on the Celtics, he's one of the best defenders in the league. Oden commits a ton of fouls, and is not a better rebounder than Perkins. Dwight Howard said it himself, Perkins gave him the most problems.

[Nitro]

This is really, really tough...

 

1) Dwight Howard

2) Shane Battier

3) Ron Artest

4) Kevin Garnett (blah blag blah he's old...his defense is still the key to the Celtics' success)

5) Thabo Selfolosha

[Real Deal]

But at the same time, how many centers force Perkins to move outside the paint?

Lee, Horford, Ilgauskas, Camby, Okur, Gasol, Duncan, Bargnani, and a few others. How many true post players are offensive threats? Howard, Shaq, Yao, and Drew? Yao didn't even play. Drew is usually hurt, or doesn't play but half of the game.

 

With his role on the Celtics, he's one of the best defenders in the league. Oden commits a ton of fouls, and is not a better rebounder than Perkins. Dwight Howard said it himself, Perkins gave him the most problems.

Yeah, and the only time Dwight played Oden, it was Oden's 17th game of his career, in 2008. Oden's knee was still an issue, and he was so inconsistent, he played 11 minutes with four fouls, and Howard dominated him.

 

Two weeks later, just eight minutes and five fouls against Denver. Four fouls in 12 minutes against Detroit another two weeks later.

 

He looked worse than Kwame Brown.

 

Oden does average a lot of fouls, yes, but so did Perkins before Garnett showed up. Perkins was contesting shots galore, from both centers and power forwards, and now, he has two excellent defensive players as teammates (KG and Rondo) and a smart defender in Pierce.

 

Oden has Roy. Alridge doesn't cut it.

 

Could be something he's going to have to eventually overcome, because he goes for more shots (tries to block everything) as much as Alonzo Mourning did, and while I think Oden is a good defensive player (second best defensive center, in my opinion), he's nowhere near Zo.

[Nitro]

Oden does average a lot of fouls

 

Bingo, which is why I didn't put him in my personal top 5. Last season he managed just 24.9MPG becuase of 4.0 foul per game. I was very big on Oden when he was coming out of Ohio State, and had it not been for the injuries I think he would have probably won DPOY this season. Howeverrrrr he's played just 82 games in 3 combined seasons. I just can't put him on the listen until he proves something. If he did a bang-up job on Yao in the 2009 playoffs, that would have been a great start to making his claim.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

If a lot of those fouls didn't come against guards and forwards, I would've put Perkins ahead of Oden.

[Legacy]

Not even a mention of Shane Battier, Brandon? Do you think he's gotten too old?

[Nitro]

Not even a mention of Shane Battier, Brandon? Do you think he's gotten too old?

 

Not to interrupt ya'll, but even though he's a half-step slower than a year or two ago, he's still the smartest perimeter defender in the league. Plays hard, knows how to play angles, make strong use of face-guarding, takes charges, etc...

 

IMO the one year he was with Houston I thought he was clearly a better player than Artest.

[Real Deal]

Yeah, he's still a high-IQ defender, but he's to the point where he's dropping that foot back pretty far when his man drives and pulls up for jumpers, and he's not recovering in time to contest the shot. He still gets into their face, but a lot of times, he's just not there for it.

 

It hurts for him to not have Yao, either, because for quite some time, I could probably say that Battier was making Yao look like a better defender (and Ming was actually getting better, but Battier was also leading his man into the help better than anyone in the league). Now, the quicker two-guards that Battier defends are leaving him in smoke because they aren't intimidated by Chuck Hayes (even though he's an excellent defender, he's not 7-6) and Luis Scola (who would rather flop).

[Nitro]

It hurts for him to not have Yao, either, because for quite some time, I could probably say that Battier was making Yao look like a better defender (and Ming was actually getting better, but Battier was also leading his man into the help better than anyone in the league). Now, the quicker two-guards that Battier defends are leaving him in smoke because they aren't intimidated by Chuck Hayes (even though he's an excellent defender, he's not 7-6) and Luis Scola (who would rather flop).

 

That's for every perimeter defensive player, though. The great offensive players will almost always beat the great defensive player. Help defense is how you shutdown superstars, as the Boston Celtics have proven many times.

[Real Deal]

That's for every perimeter defensive player, though. The great offensive players will almost always beat the great defensive player. Help defense is how you shutdown superstars, as the Boston Celtics have proven many times.

I wasn't talking about great offensive players, though. Maybe a few years back, but it doesn't take a great offensive player to do that to Shane anymore. Even you admitted he's lost a step.

[Nitro]

I wasn't talking about great offensive players, though. Maybe a few years back, but it doesn't take a great offensive player to do that to Shane anymore. Even you admitted he's lost a step.

 

I think it has more to do with him playing out of position a lot. Last season he played over triple the amount of time at SG as opposed to SF. At SF, he allowed 10% EFG worse shooting than at SG. In 2008-2009, he played each position half the time and had similar success defending SF's as opposed to SG. In 2007-2008, he played absolutely no SG and much like every season his opponent counterpart numbers at SF were stellar.

 

I also think it's kinda hypocritical to leave Battier out of the top 5 when you have Artest and Kobe, who have both lost a step or two, in your top 3. Watching a LOT of Rockets games from 04-09 (I'm a T-Mac stan) I can tell you that Battier's a better defensive player than Ron, and certainly better than Kobe.

[Real Deal]

I think it has more to do with him playing out of position a lot. Last season he played over triple the amount of time at SG as opposed to SF. At SF, he allowed 10% EFG worse shooting than at SG. In 2008-2009, he played each position half the time and had similar success defending SF's as opposed to SG. In 2007-2008, he played absolutely no SG and much like every season his opponent counterpart numbers at SF were stellar.

I don't see why any of that matters. Battier was always defending Kobe, even though Bryant plays the two. He was always defending the best player at the two OR three, as far as I can remember.

 

Seems to me like Battier lost a step, lost Yao AND lost Artest. The less amount of help, the less Battier looks good. You can draw that conclusion based on us agreeing that he usually always leads his opponents into help defense, which is why he's a smart player.

 

If it was all about numbers and percentages (the opponent eFG%), you probably should've stuck Varejao in your five for what he did against the bigs, and Wade for the numbers he puts up. Plus, numbers plus importance of position played, leave Sefolosha off your list. Bryant looks to be the better defender. Granger defends the four as good as Garnett, according to the numbers, and he plays half of his minutes there (I actually didn't realize that). Kevin Durant looks like a good defender, also, at the three...much better than LeBron, in fact...by the numbers.

 

I also think it's kinda hypocritical to leave Battier out of the top 5 when you have Artest and Kobe, who have both lost a step or two, in your top 3. Watching a LOT of Rockets games from 04-09 (I'm a T-Mac stan) I can tell you that Battier's a better defensive player than Ron, and certainly better than Kobe.

On-ball defense, not a chance. If we're rating individuals, I would rather pick the better on-ball defender, not the one that has to rely on his bigs every single drive. Smart defense, but Fisher unintentionally does what Battier did last season. Fantastic idea when you have Dwight Howard, though.

[Erick Blasco]

Jeff Van Gundy said during last year's Finals that you can't find five better on-ball defenders in the league than Tony Allen, and I'm inclined to agree with him. Quick, strong, long, and preemptive, I think he needs more respect than what he's been given. He may be a better defender than Battier and Artest at this point. He's more athletic than each, and he's pretty strong. Also, due to his nature as a specialist, he takes far fewer plays off than Kobe.

[Real Deal]

Also, due to his nature as a specialist, he takes far fewer plays off than Kobe.

I think it's more about him not having a hand in the offense. There are defensive specialists that can produce offensively as well. Pippen comes to mind. Tayshaun Prince. Gary Payton.

[Nitro]

Seems to me like Battier lost a step, lost Yao AND lost Artest. The less amount of help, the less Battier looks good. You can draw that conclusion based on us agreeing that he usually always leads his opponents into help defense, which is why he's a smart player.

 

That goes for ANY perimeter defensive player. Kobe wasn't the same defender back in the mid-2000's, and the increased offensive load was only part of it. Artest wasn't as effective with the Kings as he was with the Pacers, Rockets and Lakers. It's because good offensive players that can take you off the dribble and shoot will beat a great individual defender more often than not. Help defense is key to any great perimeter defender, and it's why great defensive big men are more valuable (IMO).

 

Secondly, even before last season Yao played in only a little more than half the games Battier played on the Rockets. Artest had virtually no impact on his defense as Battier was an elite defender dating back to his Memphis days through his first 2 years on the Rockets. Battier's defense fell off a bit last season because he had some injuries and the roster went from being defense-oriented to offense-oriented in the matter of about a year. That has to do with an entirely new roster and coach with an offensive philosophy. You're right, he does need help to have maximum effectiveness, but if we're make this list with the assumption everyone is healthy, Battier is virtually the exact same defender as a few seasons ago.

 

On-ball defense, not a chance. If we're rating individuals, I would rather pick the better on-ball defender, not the one that has to rely on his bigs every single drive. Smart defense, but Fisher unintentionally does what Battier did last season. Fantastic idea when you have Dwight Howard, though.

 

First off, Battier is a FANTASTIC on-ball defender. Just because he doesn't necessarily rough you up like Artest doesn't mean he's not as good/better. Artest's strengths are his toughness, size and quick hands. However, even now he doesn't have the lateral speed that Battier has, doesn't have as good of positioning/footwork, gambles more than Battier and doesn't contest shots as well as Battier. Trust me, watching both on the Rockets last season, Battier's the better, more consistent on-ball defender.

 

As for Kobe...eh. He doesn't put the effort in all the time, he's an average to poor help defender (always seems to over-commit to double teams and at times looks lost), and he over-reacts with his on-ball defense. However, when he chooses to lock someone down, he's damn good at it.

[Real Deal]

I don't see how you think he's a good on-ball defender anymore. If he was, he'd have the quickness to stick with the guards that blow past him. To be a good on-ball defender, you either need quickness/speed, or physical toughness on the defensive end. Battier has neither. You can be as smart as any player out there, but if you don't have either of those, you're toast. Luke Walton is a high IQ player and, believe it or not, defender...but he doesn't have the speed or physicality to be effective on that side of the ball.

 

Same for Brent Barry, who would sometimes teach rookies how to play defense...yet couldn't play it himself once he was on the court.

 

Kobe is stuck on my list over Battier because, if there's 24 seconds left in the game, there's nobody else in the NBA I want defending a player. Would you pick Battier over Bryant in that scenario? If not, that's basically telling me that, at their best and most motivated, Kobe is the better defender.

 

I don't consider who is playing with these guys. When I stick each out on an island to defend one player, minimal help defense, I then make my list. Howard, Oden, Artest, Kobe and Hinrich make the cut. If injuries were considered, it rules Oden out...so I'm not going to say I considered them. I just don't think Battier is as good of a defender, on-ball + help (as in, him helping, not others helping him) than those five.

 

Many argue that Rondo gets a lot of help from Garnett and Perkins, too. Some argue that Garnett's knee injury has changed his effectiveness on defense, and that Rondo holding his guards AND Perkins helping up front makes up for it. Some say Perkins would be worse off if Garnett and Rondo weren't so good on defense. Put them in separate scenarios, and suddenly, I feel like I can't put any of those three in my top five because of that.

 

Houston vs. Oklahoma City, first round, series tied up. Westbrook is killing Brooks like he did Fisher. Does Battier switch over and hold Westbrook to under 40% shooting in the final two games of that series? I seriously doubt that.

[Nitro]

I don't see how you think he's a good on-ball defender anymore. If he was, he'd have the quickness to stick with the guards that blow past him. To be a good on-ball defender, you either need quickness/speed, or physical toughness on the defensive end. Battier has neither. You can be as smart as any player out there, but if you don't have either of those, you're toast. Luke Walton is a high IQ player and, believe it or not, defender...but he doesn't have the speed or physicality to be effective on that side of the ball.

 

You're talking like Battier's some stiff. He has adequate enough quickness to guard swingmen, and even though he isn't Ron Artest physical, he's a guy that gets under your skin (much like teammate Chuck Hayes). Even though he doesn't have Kobe's speed or athleticism, he understands positioning and angles so well that it's very difficult to cleanly get by him. I'll just post this video since it's going to be a my word vs. your word thing (I would have picked the video where Kobe misses the shots with Battier defending him, but there weren't many clips in the video. This video shows just how difficult Battier makes things for a guy like Kobe, nothing more can be done defensively on most of those plays)...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG3T2_ARZMM&feature=related

 

Kobe is stuck on my list over Battier because, if there's 24 seconds left in the game, there's nobody else in the NBA I want defending a player. Would you pick Battier over Bryant in that scenario? If not, that's basically telling me that, at their best and most motivated, Kobe is the better defender.

 

That's just one scenario of the game. Over the course of the game, Battier does a lot more on the defensive end than Kobe does...he's consistent, one of the best in the league at contesting shots, great at taking charges, makes all the hustle plays, etc... Kobe makes too many defensive lapses over the course of the game to put him over Battier on my list.

 

I don't consider who is playing with these guys. When I stick each out on an island to defend one player, minimal help defense, I then make my list. Howard, Oden, Artest, Kobe and Hinrich make the cut. If injuries were considered, it rules Oden out...so I'm not going to say I considered them. I just don't think Battier is as good of a defender, on-ball + help (as in, him helping, not others helping him) than those five.

 

Many argue that Rondo gets a lot of help from Garnett and Perkins, too. Some argue that Garnett's knee injury has changed his effectiveness on defense, and that Rondo holding his guards AND Perkins helping up front makes up for it. Some say Perkins would be worse off if Garnett and Rondo weren't so good on defense. Put them in separate scenarios, and suddenly, I feel like I can't put any of those three in my top five because of that.

 

Basketball is a team game and I rank these defenders in that context. When Kobe has the help of a great defensive supporting cast, he flourishes. When he doesn't, his defense suffers. Same with Artest. Same with Battier. Same with EVERY great perimeter defender (and to a lesser degree interior defender). Put these guys on an island and have them play the best offensive players in the league one-on-one and they'll get roasted more often than not. Help defense is key. Great defenders do what they can individually (like Battier does), and properly funnel the players into the help defense. That's what makes a great defensive team, and I guess that's why I value Battier so high.

 

Houston vs. Oklahoma City, first round, series tied up. Westbrook is killing Brooks like he did Fisher. Does Battier switch over and hold Westbrook to under 40% shooting in the final two games of that series? I seriously doubt that.

 

Eh...they'd put Ariza on Westbrook and Battier on Durant. Comparing Battier to Artest is a lot more fair than comparing Battier to Kobe. If you take Kobe off the Lakers and enter, say, Joe Johnson, the Lakers probably wouldn't be putting Artest on Westbrook either.

[Real Deal]

That's just one scenario of the game. Over the course of the game, Battier does a lot more on the defensive end than Kobe does...he's consistent, one of the best in the league at contesting shots, great at taking charges, makes all the hustle plays, etc... Kobe makes too many defensive lapses over the course of the game to put him over Battier on my list.

That's all that needs to be said. I'm sure Kobe would be consistent as well if he didn't have to put up 30 a game, but the point is, Kobe is the better defender. If you need one stop, you pick your absolute best defender to get that stop.

 

When Kobe has the help of a great defensive supporting cast, he flourishes. When he doesn't, his defense suffers.

So, in other words, he has had the help of a great defensive cast his entire career? In 2006 and 2007 (no Gasol, just Odom and Mihm, Smush and Walton, those fantastic defenders), Kobe was voted All-Defensive 1st Team. Just like LeBron and Wade were, the same argument you used in the "Lakers defense" topic.

 

The 2007 Lakers were ranked 24th in the league, defensively. Bryant 1st Team All-Defense.

 

Bryant's defensive lapses come from picking up Fisher's man, or covering a slasher and leaving open his shooter (usually, Kobe's opponents are left open for long shots, which he'd rather give up). Not exactly a defensive lapse. Bryant also comes over to help with bigs. There is a quote I'll look for, by Phil, that explains Kobe's role on the defensive end and why he never asks Bryant to lock down his man UNLESS it's at the end of a game, or if he's hurting the team enough to cause a loss (something along those lines).

 

Are you trying to say that, if needed (if asked of him), Battier would do a better job than Bryant on, say, Durant...for 40 minutes?

 

Guess it's a matter of opinion, then. I just don't think Battier is at that level anymore. Top ten is different...but I can't say he's a top five defender in the league. Bryant was injured for half the season, major injuries that would sit most players in the league, but you could only see it every now and then on the defensive end.

[Nitro]

That's all that needs to be said. I'm sure Kobe would be consistent as well if he didn't have to put up 30 a game, but the point is, Kobe is the better defender. If you need one stop, you pick your absolute best defender to get that stop.

 

Then we have a very different view on how this list should be made. Give me Battier's consistently great defense, hustle, charges and intangibles over a guy who switches to lockdown mode only in certain situations. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Kobe is not as sound of a defender as Battier and is easily prone to over-reacting and playing below average off-ball defense (he turns his head on his man and attacks double teams way too often IMO, and I don't think I've ever seen him take a charge).

 

So, in other words, he has had the help of a great defensive cast his entire career? In 2006 and 2007 (no Gasol, just Odom and Mihm, Smush and Walton, those fantastic defenders), Kobe was voted All-Defensive 1st Team. Just like LeBron and Wade were, the same argument you used in the "Lakers defense" topic.

 

The 2007 Lakers were ranked 24th in the league, defensively. Bryant 1st Team All-Defense.

 

Bryant's defensive lapses come from picking up Fisher's man, or covering a slasher and leaving open his shooter (usually, Kobe's opponents are left open for long shots, which he'd rather give up). Not exactly a defensive lapse. Bryant also comes over to help with bigs. There is a quote I'll look for, by Phil, that explains Kobe's role on the defensive end and why he never asks Bryant to lock down his man UNLESS it's at the end of a game, or if he's hurting the team enough to cause a loss (something along those lines).

 

Let me rephrase- When Kobe didn't have world class players around him, his defense suffered. Kobe was the most overrated defender in the league those few years (04-08). He got those nods based on his reputation from the 3-peat years of being a consistent lockdown defender. My point in bringing up Wade and LeBron being on the All-Defensive teams in that topic was to show they aren't "average" defenders like kingfish said. If I was that much of a hypocrite, one of those two would be in my top 5.

 

Are you trying to say that, if needed (if asked of him), Battier would do a better job than Bryant on, say, Durant...for 40 minutes?

 

Yes. Battier has 2 inches on Kobe and isn't as easily juked by pump and ball fakes, and won't get caught fouling Durant on that swing-through move where he draws fouls on the jumper. I think Artest is the perfect defender against Durant because of his physicality, though.

 

Guess it's a matter of opinion, then.

 

Bingo. How we value defense and what makes a great defender is definitely different so this arguement is futile.