Boozer thinks Bulls can be title contenders

[Real Deal]

There are also plenty of examples of players that don't even average 20 points per game that are considered great closers, at one point or another in their careers, including Hedo Turkoglu, Roger Mason, and Derek Fisher.

And before he says, "Those are just last-second shots," I'll add Paul Pierce and Tim Duncan to the list.

[Built Ford Tough]

So Derrick Rose isn't a viable crunch time option because he isn't a top 5 scorer in the NBA and is a point guard is basically what you are saying? Who the hell cares?

 

The guy averaged nearly 21 points a game on 49% shooting this past season. Those are impressive numbers for anybody, "true scorer" or not. It really doesn't matter that Rose is a point guard or not because he is a scorer by nature. He was the highest scoring point guard in the league last season, had the 5th highest shooting percentage and took the most shots per game of any point guard (by 1.4 a game). It isn't in Derrick Rose's nature to not look to score the basketball, point guard or not.

 

If his regular season numbers aren't enough, what about the fact that he was 15th in the leauge in clutch time scoring last season? Of the 14 players ahead of him, only 8 shot a better percentage from the floor than he did. Some of the players who he shot a better percentage than were Kevin Durant (by 9.8%), Kobe Bryant (by 0.9%), Dirk Nowitzki (by 0.4%) and Carmelo Anthony (by 2.6%). These players are 4 of the top scorers in the NBA and Rose wasn't too far off from their clutch time scoring last season and in some cases, was significantly more efficient.

 

Rose also average 8.3 assists during this time, which is something to note. As far as I am concerned, you don't have to be the one that is doing the scoring to be clutch. If you are directly responsible for a teammate getting a wide open look, it means just as much as scoring the ball yourself. If you are a threat to pass the ball during crunch time, tt adds another element to what the defense have to be aware of. The only players in the top 15 of clutch scoring who averaged more assists than Rose did were Steve Nash and Chris Paul (LeBron averaged an identical 8.3). This had to be taken into consideration as well when determining if a player is a viable option down the stretch.

 

There is also his play down the stretch when the Bulls were fighting for the last playoff spot. He guaranteed that they would make the playoffs and after that guarantee (I'm not 100% sure when he said it, so I'll use the final 10 games as a reference point) he averaged 24.7 ppg on 52.4 FG% including a 39 point on 68% shooting performance against the Celtics in what was basically the game that stamped the Bulls ticket into the playoffs.

 

Last thing I'll touch upon in regards to him being a threat is his numbers in the playoffs against one of the best defensive teams in the league. He averaged 27 points a game on 45.6% against the Cavs. Granted it was a small sample size (only 5 games) but considering his performance the previous year against the Celtics, I don't think think you can write it off as a fluke. When the pressure increases and the games get bigger, Rose brings his game to the next level. It is as simple as that.

 

He also did all of this during his second season where he was 21 years old. It is only logical to assume that he will be able to improve on these numbers considering he still has plenty of things that he can add to his game.

 

But if you think he isn't a viable option because he doesn't average 25 points per game or he is a point guard, well, good for you.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Built Ford Tough

[Multi-Billionaire]

I love Derrick Rose, he's one of my fave players.

 

That said, Steve Nash with less scoring average can finish better than Rose. We know that Nash is clutch, but my point is not about his clutchness but rather his ability to knock down the long shot. If the opponent backs from him, Nash can step back to create a little space and shoot.

 

The problem with Rose is he doesn't shoot a high percentage from outside... despite reports that he has retooled his shooting form and practiced the outside shot all summer. I saw USA games and he still shoots it flat and no rotation on the ball... but "a little improvement" is no sufficient considering he shot only 26.7% from downtown last season.

 

We've seen many times when a great defensive team like the Spurs locked down a star player that he couldn't get it inside the three pt line and were forced to shoot from downtown... even Nash (still a better passer than Rose at his disposal) still couldn't get it inside and he had to shoot from downtown. But Nash is a career 40% 3pt shooter, and he can afford to shoot it from there. Rose? You need someone with a natural scoring mentality. Rose's natural mentality is to run a team, not to close games with scoring.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Snake

[moeroadkill]

i do kind of agree with snake, we know rose can score the ball, theres no doubt about it, but what i think his trying to say that in the final seconds do you trust rose enough to take that final shot? he doesnt have a that go-to move in crunch time, he doesnt have that fadeaway jumper or a step back like Paul Peirce for example.

that being said there isn't anyone on the bulls squad that i would rather take the last shot than rose

[Nitro]

I agree and disagree with Snake...

 

-I disagree with the idea that Rose isn't good enough to close out ball-games. He has an automatic midrange jumper and can get to the rim extremely well. With the ball in his hands in crunch time, I do trust that Rose can close out a ballgame.

 

-Where I agree with Snake is that Rose is not a good enough 1st option on a championship contender. The only way that would work out is if the Bulls become an all-time defensive team ala the 2004 Pistons, and I just don't see that happening with the roster they have (although having Thibs as a coach will go a long way in the next few years). What really kills them is the fact that the East is VERY top heavy with 3 of the 4 best teams in the league residing in the conference. And including the Lakers, we are talking about 4 STACKED teams. I could see the Bulls making noise and maybe even knocking off the Magic, but they'll get smoked by the Lakers/Celtics/Heat. And I do believe a lot of that has to do with Rose. Even though he's a scoring PG, he's only had 9 career 30+ point games, and never had a 40pt game. Right now the most comparable currently active player I can think of to him is Dwyane Wade, but Rose doesn't have the same offensive talent or size (Wade's only about an inch taller but he has about a wingspan that's 5" longer and at least 10-15lbs on Rose). He just isn't a guy that I can see truly dominating on a consistent basis. And Boozer certainly isn't that guy, especially against other elite PF's. Because of this, the Bulls will struggle at times. Maybe not in the regular season or in the first round of the playoffs, but against the Celtics/Heat they are going to be in for some trouble.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Nitro

[Multi-Billionaire]

^Haha, this is the first time you agree with me in any discussion, but I'll take it.

 

Wade is a superstar because he has proven to be deadly with that outside shot in crunch time. He beat the Mavs in the Finals by himself by repeatedly burying those mid-outside shots. He has developed those long shots (3 pt and just inside the 3 pt) at high accuracy that it has legitimately become his weapon and made him deadly.

 

Can we describe Rose's jumper as "deadly"? No... it's not even consistent to be described anywhere near deadly. It goes in from time to time, but "time to time" is not enough, especially if you're trying to shoot for a championship. Against, a top defensive team like Lakers they're going to dare him to shoot it than drive and do that effective floater. Pretend there's no way for Rose to penetrate and drive in (Kobe, Artest, Bynum, Barnes are determined Rose is not to drive anywhere close the paint) and he has to beat them with his 20-22 foot jumper? I'm not sure I'd bet on the Bulls. And I bet through 10 of those games, Bulls fans and management will pray, hope, and start looking for a scorer by trying to dangle Deng in trades.

 

 

that being said there isn't anyone on the bulls squad that i would rather take the last shot than rose

 

I don't disagree... and that's my point. They need a legitimate scorer.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Snake

[Poe]

I don't know how many more ways it can be proven to you Snake... Rose is a very good scorer in the clutch, and considering his age, he's only likely to get better and better with experience. But no matter how many times it's proven to you, you keep coming back with "but he's not a true scorer!".

 

And sure, Rose hasn't completely developed his jumper... so what? Does LeBron need a jumper to take over the 4th? Rose consistently scored 20 points in his sophomore year regardless of his strengths and weaknesses, and that's the fact.

 

 

And Nitro, you don't need a top 5 scorer to win a championship, though most teams in the past have won through building around one. Look at the 2004 Detroit Pistons. The Bulls look almost exactly like that team this year.

 

 

Compare starting rosters:

 

Chauncey Billups / Derrick Rose

Rip Hamilton / ???

Tayshaun Prince / Luol Deng

Rasheed Wallace / Carlos Boozer

Ben Wallace / Joakim Noah

 

 

All the Bulls need is an SG that can both shoot and defend, and some more bench depth. Under the right coach, they have everything they need to contend.

[Real Deal]

You start here...

 

but take the Lakers (or best defensive team) with 1 pt margin down the stretch, half court defense... you go with Rose?

when the game is on the line with 2 mins or less, with only 1-2 pts score margin,

You realized that he actually does shoot well from mid-range, so you say...

 

The problem with Rose is he doesn't shoot a high percentage from outside... despite reports that he has retooled his shooting form and practiced the outside shot all summer. I saw USA games and he still shoots it flat and no rotation on the ball... but "a little improvement" is no sufficient considering he shot only 26.7% from downtown last season.

Then you change it up and say...

 

Pretend there's no way for Rose to penetrate and drive in (Kobe, Artest, Bynum, Barnes are determined Rose is not to drive anywhere close the paint) and he has to beat them with his 20-22 foot jumper?

So are you asking for threes, or twos? There are plenty of guys who finish games well without being able to shoot the three-ball. Jordan was one of them for a good chunk of his career. Dwyane Wade shot .171 from downtown in 2006, the same season he became a champion leading his team.

 

I just want you to know that Derrick Rose shoots .467 on jumpers alone. Carmelo last season? He finished at .410. Compare that to Billups at .491 and Kobe at .462, and even Wade at .393, and it's really hard to say that Rose doesn't shoot the ball well.

[Multi-Billionaire]

The shots I meant are the 20 foot or further... see the youtube of Wade below:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFXKiMQXCbU

 

 

Can you imagine Rose burying those shots by Wade seen on the video above:

- 0:06 vs. Nets... three pointer to win game

- 1:05 vs. Bulls... three pointer in transition to win game

- 1:50 vs. Lakers... Trevor Ariza's great one-on-one defense caused Wade to have to unleash his crossover and nearly committed a TO, but Wade launched from 35 foot and buried the shot... it's a shot only a scorer with true scoring instincts can make. It's instinctive.

- 3:30 vs. Pistons... long 2 pt shot to win the game that is guarded by one of the best defenders Tayshaun Prince.

- 4:08 vs. Jazz... just inside the 3 pt line... contact made and still making the clutch long shot

- 4:41 vs. Knicks... step back 3 to create space and shot... you really see Rose doing this? Game on the line, game (maybe series or championship) depends on his shot...

- 5:32 vs. Suns... shot from full court... lol jk

- 6:13 vs. Jazz... another long shot to win the game

 

 

Pretend Rose has to do that against top defensive teams (hey, they're shooting for a championship right, so along the way they must meet the Celtics, Magic, and possibly Lakers if they get to Finals and want to win the 'ship... teams that play great defense). Remember the shots will most likely be tightly contested, and in crunch time. If you want to win a championship, you must conquer about 7-10 games of these in the playoffs.

 

Wade might not be a 3 pt specialist, but guy is a finisher, he closes games by delivering with his scoring in crunch time. I wouldn't say Rose "chokes" in crunch time, I just doubt he can deliver consistently in crunch time, particularly with scoring. Rose can score, but to count on his scoring for 4 quarters... I just don't see it.

[Nitro]

And Nitro, you don't need a top 5 scorer to win a championship, though most teams in the past have won through building around one. Look at the 2004 Detroit Pistons. The Bulls look almost exactly like that team this year.

 

 

Compare starting rosters:

 

Chauncey Billups / Derrick Rose

Rip Hamilton / ???

Tayshaun Prince / Luol Deng

Rasheed Wallace / Carlos Boozer

Ben Wallace / Joakim Noah

 

 

All the Bulls need is an SG that can both shoot and defend, and some more bench depth. Under the right coach, they have everything they need to contend.

 

You must have completely missed one of the key points of my post, where I said that UNLESS THE BULLS HAVE AN ALL-TIME DEFENSE ALA THE 2004 PISTONS, they will either need Rose to start being a dominant player (which I don't see happening for reasons I stated in my post), or will need more roster adjustments. And the chances of the Bulls being as dominant as those Pistons or 2008 Celtics are next to zero. Boozer is on the opposite spectrum of defense that KG/Sheed were, Joakim Noah is no Ben Wallace and at C won't be much more effective than Perkins, Deng is not the defensive player Prince was in the middle of the decade and has to prove he can defend as well as Pierce did in the 2008 post-season, Rose isn't the defender Billups (or Rondo) was, etc...

 

And those Pistons were a perfect storm and in a horrible Eastern Conference. This current Lakers squad is better than the banged up 2004 Lakers, and the Heat/Celtics/Magic are better than those Nets/Pacers/Heat teams. And keep in mind, the 2004 Nets brought the Pistons to 7 games, and the 2005 Heat probably would have made the Finals had it not been for Wade's injury.

[Nitro]

Can we describe Rose's jumper as "deadly"? No... it's not even consistent to be described anywhere near deadly.

 

Don't know what you're talking about...Rose's midrange jumper STATISTICALLY was much more efficient than Wade's. The bigger difference between he and Wade has to do with the size difference between the two. Wade has an inch in height, 5" advantage in wingspan, and a good 10-20lbs on Rose. He is also (IMO) one of the 5 best in NBA history at getting to the rim and finishing.

[Multi-Billionaire]

^What I meant was his 20 foot and beyond jumpers. The long jumpers I noted Wade make in the youtube video I posted above.

[Real Deal]

Dude, lol...I gave you numbers on both Wade's threes AND his mid-range game. Rose puts up better numbers, and Wade shot .170 or so from three when he won his title. Rose is a better shooter, statistically.

 

But now you're trying to say, "Okay, just 20-footers!"

 

Seriously? So, to score in the fourth quarter, late in the game, you have to take 20-footers? No 18-footers? LeBron never drove the lane and scored buckets to defeat the 2007 Pistons? They were a pretty good defensive team.

 

When this all started, you were telling us that Rose wasn't a 25 PPG scorer, and that he can't finish with the likes of Melo and Wade. You stated that, if he could average 25, he would prove you wrong.

 

NOW you've narrowed it down to shooting 20-footers, and you're showing us Youtube vids to prove that Wade shoots them better than Rose, even though we've proven that Rose is a better shooter?

 

I can find Youtube vids that show how good of a player Smush Parker is, too. Must be why he's still in the NBA.

[Multi-Billionaire]

^I said from the start it's jumpers or anything outside the paint. That's why I brought Steve Nash in the discussion, I said Nash has the ability to knock down outside shots. We know once near the paint, Rose would try to float it most of the time, if he's nearer to the rim, then of course, lay up or dunk it. And I agree with you, he finishes those shots with a high percentage. But we're not talking about those close shots.

 

LeBron dominated the Pistons because he's a 6-8 specimen, a train with full of power and speed. Rose, on the other hand, is only 6-4 and although he is strong for a guard, he possesses nowhere near LeBron's physical power. A center would get out of LeBron's way when he's charging at the rim at full speed. But if they see Rose? They'd try to foul him.

 

Also remember when LeBron scored 29 consecutive points, notice he did not score them all from inside the paint, but also some long-range shots, which are still Rose's achilles heel.

 

 

Those 20 foot or beyond shots are still Rose's weakness.

[Real Deal]

^I said from the start it's jumpers or anything outside the paint. That's why I brought Steve Nash in the discussion, I said Nash has the ability to knock down outside shots. We know once near the paint, Rose would try to float it most of the time, if he's nearer to the rim, then of course, lay up or dunk it. And I agree with you, he finishes those shots with a high percentage. But we're not talking about those close shots.

No, I've excluded layups and dunks from those percentages I gave you. Those were all jumpers, including outside shots.

 

Those 20 foot or beyond shots are still Rose's weakness.

And the same was said about Dwyane Wade, in 2006, when he won an NBA championship and shot .171 from three. I've yet to hear you tell me why that happened.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Did Wade knock down all the shots that mattered? Yes, irrespective to his low percentage, he made shots that mattered. That's why he's a closer. He single-handedly carried the Heat from down 0-2 (almost down 0-3) by knocking down all shots... and they beat the Mavs 4 straight games to win the title.

 

Rose is not at that level... his long-range shot making is not that dependable for Bulls to say, "we can win a championship with you as #1 option".

[Real Deal]

Did Wade knock down all the shots that mattered? Yes, irrespective to his low percentage, he made shots that mattered. That's why he's a closer. He single-handedly carried the Heat from down 0-2 (almost down 0-3) by knocking down all shots... and they beat the Mavs 4 straight games to win the title.

 

Rose is not at that level... his long-range shot making is not that dependable for Bulls to say, "we can win a championship with you as #1 option".

He was 3-11 from three in that Heat-Mavs series, which is what I thought we were talking about?

 

But I guess we're talking about free throws, since he made 75 of them that series. Takes a lot of driving in (what Rose does) to get those calls.

 

Well...okay.

[Multi-Billionaire]

These shots I'm talking about:

 

 

- 0:11

- 0:19

- 0:43

- 1:18

- 1:26

 

 

The 20 foot or beyond shots? But I guess you're going to ignore the videos I posted and keep ignoring the fact that Wade closes games by knocking down these perimeter shots when it counts, and Rose has yet to prove he can knock down those perimeter shots (you know, the 20 foot or beyond shots).

[Real Deal]

The 20 foot or beyond shots? But I guess you're going to ignore the videos I posted and keep ignoring the fact that Wade closes games by knocking down these perimeter shots when it counts, and Rose has yet to prove he can knock down those perimeter shots (you know, the 20 foot or beyond shots).

 

First shot was a 16-footer.

 

Second shot was a 17-footer.

 

Third was 18 feet from the rim.

 

Fourth was 18-19 feet.

 

Fifth shot was 16-17 feet.

 

You didn't point out a single three in that video, didn't point out a single 20+ foot jumper. The three is 23'9" away from the rim, dude.

 

Rose hits all of those said shots at a MUCH higher FG% than Wade does, much higher than Melo.

 

I gave you the numbers. You gave me five shots that all didn't match your description.

 

This has to suck.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Whooops... sorry that's not the video... this is the one that you ignored.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFXKiMQXCbU

 

 

Can you imagine Rose burying those shots by Wade seen on the video above:

- 0:06 vs. Nets... three pointer to win game

- 1:05 vs. Bulls... three pointer in transition to win game

- 1:50 vs. Lakers... Trevor Ariza's great one-on-one defense caused Wade to have to unleash his crossover and nearly committed a TO, but Wade launched from 35 foot and buried the shot... it's a shot only a scorer with true scoring instincts can make. It's instinctive.

- 3:30 vs. Pistons... long 2 pt shot to win the game that is guarded by one of the best defenders Tayshaun Prince.

- 4:08 vs. Jazz... just inside the 3 pt line... contact made and still making the clutch long shot

- 4:41 vs. Knicks... step back long 2 to create space and shot... you really see Rose doing this? Game on the line, game (maybe series or championship) depends on his shot...

- 5:32 vs. Suns... shot from full court... lol jk

- 6:13 vs. Jazz... another long shot to win the game

 

 

Long shots for you pal.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Snake

[Riot]

Guy's only been in the league 2 years, he's not gonna have a million game winners on youtube so early in his career. He said he's developed a more reliable 3 point shot now, so watch him this season before you judge whether or not he can make those kind of shots.

[*Swish*]

I really do think that they are title contenders.. they're going to go far in the playoffs this year that's for sure.