In their Primes

[Multi-Billionaire]

^He got plenty of help from Vernon Mad Max Maxwell (13.8 ppg), Otis Thorpe (11.3 ppg, 9.9 rpg), Horry (11.7 ppg), Smith (10.8 ppg, 44.7 3PT%), Cassell (9.4 ppg), Elie (5.8 ppg).

 

Haha the rookie Cassell played at the end of NBA Finals games and buried the Knicks in Game 3 in the final minute with an and 1 lay up and a 3. Rockets had been without a basket for 10 mins in that quarter until that and 1 lay up. Without him, Rockets probably would have gone down 1-2 and lost the series. Houston won in 7 games.

 

 

 

In 1995, Elie had his clutch moment with that corner 3 and that famous kiss blow, they won the Game 7.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWGuUwjS4Pc

 

 

Give me the guys who can play in the clutch in the playoffs, guys like Derek Fisher, Horry, Cassell, over guys who average many points but disappear in the clutch in the playoffs. These guys helped Olajuwon a lot.

 

 

What I meant is Drexler was still in his prime as evidenced by him being selected as the West starting SG in 1996 in San Antonio.

 

 

 

Kidd's only edge was he's the superior defender, but it could be argued that Nash passed as well if not better, he had more options at the end of games because of his ability to score or pass at a high level. He had two swords. JKidd could only pass and opponents dared him to shoot, and he only had one sword. Nash was also more aggressive in attacking the rim, he had this move where he went in then did a turnaround jumpshot and if you foul him he's a career 90+% FT shooter.

 

Besides if you have Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Kobe in their prime, all a First Team defensive team, on the same team, you can afford to have a weak link defensively.

[Guru]

 

Kidd's only edge was he's the superior defender, but it could be argued that Nash passed as well if not better, he had more options at the end of games because of his ability to score or pass at a high level. He had two swords. JKidd could only pass and opponents dared him to shoot, and he only had one sword. Nash was also more aggressive in attacking the rim, he had this move where he went in then did a turnaround jumpshot and if you foul him he's a career 90+% FT shooter.

 

Besides if you have Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Kobe in their prime, all a First Team defensive team, on the same team, you can afford to have a weak link defensively.

I would much rather have a PG who is a liability on the offensive end than the defensive end. Look at Rondo. Like Rondo, Kidd's defense makes the teams offense so much easier. You guys are seriously underrating Kidd on the defensive side of the ball and his leadership. Also, two can play the game you are playing with your last statement: "Besides if you have Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Kobe in their prime, all who have the ability to create their own shot, on the same team, you can afford to have a weak link offensively."

Edited September 7, 2010 by Guru™

[Nitro]

You can't give me Duncan's 27 PPG playoff run, the sample size he had against Predrag Drobnjak and Shaq. For one...Drobnjak? I could score 30 on him every game...but Shaq was so ignorant in that Spurs/Lakers series, he almost lost us leads I don't know how many times. He and Duncan played "good game, bad game" the entire series, while Bryant basically beat the Spurs by himself. Plus, despite what anyone claims, Shaq was a pathetic defensive player. Heard it enough from Phil Jackson, then had to watch it for years. Pick and roll, he was D-League bad, and his on-ball defense (especially against versatile centers) was ugly.

 

Ha..I can't use Duncan's 27PPG playoff run? Then you can't use 2 of Kobe's 4 most efficient post-seasons where he beat up on a terrible Phoenix Suns' defense in two first round knockouts. Keep in mind, those are 2 of the only 4x Kobe's ever shot 46% or better from the field in the post-season.

 

And I can play the nit-pick game as well for Kobe beating up on certain poor defenders or defensive teams, but it's absolutely pointless.

 

Was the 24 PPG playoff run the year he dominated Dirk? If so, it was also the year Kevin Garnett locked him up, badly, after he kept helping off Duncan that first game of the series, and Robinson had to win it for San Antonio.

 

From 2000-2006 Duncan never averaged below 23PPG in the post-season, and eclipsed 24PPG 4 seperate post-seasons. He also threw in over 14RPG 3x (all from 2001-2003, his prime years), over 5APG twice (2002 and 2003), shot over 52% 3x, blocked over 3 shots 3x, etc... In the 2003 post-seasn he also led all players in both offensive AND defensive win-shares.

 

Bottom line is in a big-heavy, tough Western Conference Duncan was able to score at volume and do pretty much everything else at great volume and generally great efficiency (a few post-seasons he shot under 50% which isn't great for a big-man).

 

BTW, that series against KG both teams scored over 90pts only once in the 4-game set, and both Duncan and KG had generally poor series'. Minnesota shot below 40% 3 out of those 4 games, and SA wasn't much better. For the most part KG and TD went tit-for-tat, which isn't a knock on either as they are two of the top PF's in NBA history on both ends of the floor. And it's not like David Robinson exactly lit it up either. He played slightly better than Duncan, but he was also defended by Rasho and Dean Garret for that series.

 

I'm not going to dive into a 4-12 game playoff run, though. I'm sure he averaged in the 20's when he won his titles, but when you tell me that Kobe has rarely had the most difficult swingman assignment, I can't help but say that Duncan didn't exactly play against any good defenders in the playoffs. Amare, Dirk, Shaq, Drobnjak, four that just come to mind. When he did, against Garnett, he didn't show me anything to drop my jaw about.

 

I was referring to taking on the OTHER team's best offensive player as a defensive assignment. Kobe rarely had to guard any elite swingmen during his post-season runs because the West was chock-full of elite big men at the time (Sheed, Webber, Duncan, Shaq, KG, Dirk, etc...). In recent years Ariza and Artest have taken those assignments. While what Kobe did against Rondo and Westbrook was very, very smart basketball, it's not nearly on the same level as Duncan having to guard Shaq/KG/Dirk/Webber in their primes.

 

If this is all about the big man and how you'd build around one over any guard, then I don't see the point of going any further with this. In other words, you would take Shaq over Jordan? Both Duncan and Shaq had a lot of help winning their rings. It's not just about being a seven-footer. Tell me who we put around these guys first, and then I'll decide.

 

I cannot stress this enough, and while we've beaten it to death plenty of times...Kobe is not Jordan. He just isn't as effective on either end of the floor. I'm not going to even get into it again. You know my stance.

 

And generally speaking, it's much easier to find a star wing player that can score and pass well than it is to find a big man that can dominate both ends of the floor. I am NOT saying those wing players can do the things Kobe can, or as well as Kobe can, but I feel a lot more confident in taking a franchise big man like a prime Duncan and building around him than I do a prime Kobe. TD certainly had help in winning his titles, but in his peak year (2003) he had a rookie Ginobili, a retirey-to-be 9/8 David Robinson, a raw 2nd year player in Tony Parker (who was certainly a key to their championship but a poor 2nd option), and a young/inefficient Stephen Jackson. It's certainly a solid supporting cast, but for that team to get through the 3-peat Lakers and 60-win Mavs the Spurs needed Duncan to have a legendary post-season run. Which he delivered.

 

Do I feel a prime Kobe could take a similarly talented team to the promise land in that Western Conference? Possibly, but I doubt it.

 

Using that logic, you should want to take Hakeem over all of the bigs AND guards, because the truth is, Hakeem had the least amount of help winning his titles.

 

Different era, different league. And for the record, I'd take prime Hakeem over prime Duncan anyday of the week. Probably over prime Shaq, too.

[Real Deal]

I never said anything about the Lakers/Suns series. I was using Bryant's regular season numbers, against 29 other teams, 82 games a year.

 

Even without the averages, Kobe's massive numbers in games (81, 62 in three, four-consecutive 50's, nine consecutive 40's, 13 consecutive 35's, 2-3 months of averages of 40 PPG, etc)...they topple everything Duncan has ever put up, and it's a rabbit in a turtle race.

 

You pointing out who Bryant had to defend (and using that to downplay his defense) would be like me looking at who was defending Duncan (using that to downplay his offense). It's similar. I'm 100% sure Duncan has never been asked to drop buckets against guys like Prince, Battier, Bell, Bowen, Jackson, Hinrich, Kidd, Artest, Posey, Wade, Sefolosha, Afflalo, Christie, Roy, Kirilenko, Pippen or Jordan.

 

And it all comes back to this...

I never said that Duncan was the better offensive player.

And it's me saying that Kobe is far superior on the offensive end of the court, more than Duncan's superiority over Kobe on the defensive end.

 

Can't really say where else to go from there.

[Nitro]

I never said anything about the Lakers/Suns series. I was using Bryant's regular season numbers, against 29 other teams, 82 games a year.

 

I know. But my point is that if you're going to nit-pick certain circumstances regarding Duncan's post-season stats (like you do when comparing anyone to Kobe), then I can do the same vice versa.

 

Even without the averages, Kobe's massive numbers in games (81, 62 in three, four-consecutive 50's, nine consecutive 40's, 13 consecutive 35's, 2-3 months of averages of 40 PPG, etc)...they topple everything Duncan has ever put up, and it's a rabbit in a turtle race.

 

Who cares about a few crazy outbursts in some regular season games? In the regular season I value consistency because it's such a long race, and Kobe is not a model of consistency. When it all averages out, a prime Kobe will produce roughly 30PPG on 45-46% shooting, whereas Duncan will produce roughly 22PPG on 50% shooting. We know both Duncan and Kobe can lead teams to 50+ win seasons and HCA.

 

The post-season is a more valuable measure. Kobe's had one 50pt game ever in the post-season (in an OT game against the Suns), and 10 other games where he's eclipsed 40+ points. Keep in mind that's in 198 career playoff games. It's not like we're talking about Jordan, who had 1 career 60pt playoff game, 7 50pt playoff games, and 30 40pt playoff games. Kobe doesn't go on those crazy scoring outbursts in the post-season often enough to say he's miles ahead of Duncan offensively, who would produce roughly 4-5 less points than Kobe on better shooting % while dishing out almost the same amount of assists. Not to mention while Kobe's rebounding and assist numbers in the post-season never really exceeded his regular season stats, Duncan's numbers across the board all went up during his prime. He was a 25/14/5/3 guy in the post-season during his prime.

 

Also, for what it's worth, in 170 post-season games Duncan's had 6 40pt games. 5 less than Kobe in 28 less games. Not as staggering a difference as you'd expect.

 

You pointing out who Bryant had to defend (and using that to downplay his defense) would be like me looking at who was defending Duncan (using that to downplay his offense). It's similar. I'm 100% sure Duncan has never been asked to drop buckets against guys like Prince, Battier, Bell, Bowen, Jackson, Hinrich, Kidd, Artest, Posey, Wade, Sefolosha, Afflalo, Christie, Roy, Kirilenko, Pippen or Jordan.

 

I'm not using it to downplay his individual ability as a defender, but rather to show that unless he is locking down an elite swingman, it is absolutely LAUGHABLE to say he's anywhere in the same vicinity as effective a defender as Tim Duncan is. And the fact that he's never really had to do that on the biggest stage speaks volumes to that. Duncan constantly had to defend elite big men in the post-season while also helping shutdown perimeter players from making plays at the rim. The Spurs defense since he joined the team has been elite, especially during his prime when he was anchoring an all-time level defense.

[Real Deal]

I do find it quite funny that you mention how bad the Suns were, defensively, yet they had Raja Bell and Shawn Marion defending Bryant. Phoenix was an average defensive team because of Nash and the frontcourt's lack of defense.

 

Those Suns teams were ranked 16th and 13th on defense those two seasons, by the way...so I'm guessing the bottom 20 teams are terrible, defensively? No average?

 

Bryant hasn't had to defend anyone on the biggest stage? I'm pretty sure he had to defend Iverson after Fisher was lit up for 48 in Game 1. Bryant held AI to 40% or less from the floor for the next two games, defended him half of the time in the fourth game, and Jackson left it up to Lue and Fisher in Game 5.

 

It was Bryant that had to defend Miller most of the time in 2000, and he came out of the gates and held Reggie to 1-16 from the floor in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. When Bryant was assigned Rose for Game 2, he only played nine minutes...and Rose ended up dropping 30 on LA.

 

He had Kittles, for the most part, against the Nets. Not a big deal.

 

That's just the Finals.

 

Offensively, he has done MUCH more than just the 50 he dropped on Phoenix. Remember his 48 points and 16 rebounds against the Kings to sweep the series in 2001, then the following game, Bryant dropped 45 points and 10 rebounds against the Spurs? He added 36 points, 9 rebounds and 8 assists two games later. He stacked 48 or 49 on Denver recently, had a monster fourth.

 

Kobe doesn't go on those crazy scoring outbursts in the post-season often enough to say he's miles ahead of Duncan offensively

Jordan came into the league, and to the Bulls, as the primary scoring option. Never, ever had a second option that ran up 22+ a game. Same with Tim Duncan, with the exception of 2009 and Parker (22 PPG) and his rookie season. If Bryant had a Dwight Howard, instead of a Shaq, you really think he wouldn't go on "crazy scoring outbursts" in the playoffs? The 2000-2007 Bryant would have more 50s, easily. Why would you bring that into the debate when you know Bryant and Duncan (and Jordan) didn't start on the same path from the beginning?

 

Since Shaq's departure, Kobe has averaged 30+ in three consecutive playoff seasons, nearly four (29.2 PPG this year), and that's in five seasons. With Shaq? Just one time, out of eight.

 

I don't know why you're still trying to make Tim Duncan out to be as good as Bryant on the offensive end, and that it's taking you to discredit Bryant's post-season performances to get it done, ignoring the other 1,000+ games he's played.

 

Both in their primes, Bryant is more likely to dominate a single defender, and by dominate, it means 50 points. Will he do it as efficiently as Duncan? No, because Duncan is a big...but there's one thing to say about Tim that none of his supporters like to hear: for a seven-footer who has had an excellent post game and was never declared soft, he sure doesn't shoot like a true big from the floor. Hell, even Barkley shot better.

 

Charles Barkley - 54.1% career FG, seven seasons shooting 55% or better

Kevin McHale - 55.4% career FG, six seasons shooting 55% or better

Tim Duncan - 50.8% career FG, zero seasons shooting 55% or better (just zero?)

 

Might as well continue to nit-pick at everything, but I'll bounce from the regular season to the playoffs and cover every game. 2005 Finals MVP? Shouldn't have gotten it after the Pistons held him to under 42% shooting in the series, forced 37% FG on him in a deciding Game 7 (since Bryant's Game 7 was so bad, and Jordan shot 26% in Game 6 vs. Seattle).

 

Throwing a bunch of stats together will make the members go, "Wow...that's crazy! Jordan shot 26% in the final game against Seattle? Whoa... he was held to under 42% FG in that entire series? He was held to under 43% in the 1998 Finals?" It's not hard to make a player look bad.

[Real Deal]

No point in me talking about it anymore, to be honest.

 

Either way, best overall players in their primes (among current) would be Bryant, followed by Duncan, then Garnett and Kidd in the mix.

 

Build around? Probably the bigs first (Shaq and Duncan), but it depends on the teammates. Give Kobe a defensive big (like Rodman), a Pippen, and a ton of shooters? I'm probably taking Bryant because, when it's all said and done, Bryant will be doing more for longer, and giving it his all for a full season and playoffs.

[Nitro]

I do find it quite funny that you mention how bad the Suns were, defensively, yet they had Raja Bell and Shawn Marion defending Bryant. Phoenix was an average defensive team because of Nash and the frontcourt's lack of defense.

 

Those Suns teams were ranked 16th and 13th on defense those two seasons, by the way...so I'm guessing the bottom 20 teams are terrible, defensively? No average?

 

It doesn't really matter who is defending those guys when the help defense is so god-awful. In the 2006 post-season they had Boris Diaw starting at Center. In 2007 they had one of the worst defensive bigs in the league, Amare, at Center. Bell and Marion were roasted on a regular basis by elite perimeter players because of this fact (along with the fact that Raja is ridiculously overrated defensively and Marion's strength isn't on-ball defense). Some stats...

 

Dwyane Wade vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 1G, 25.0PPG, 2.0APG, 1.0RPG, 50.0% shooting

2006-2007: 0G

 

LeBron James vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 45.0PPG, 9.0RPG, 7.0APG, 57.4% shooting

2006-2007: 2G, 32.0PPG, 7.5RPG, 5.5APG, 54.0% shooting

 

Paul Pierce vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 30.0PPG, 5.0RPG, 3.5APG, 44.0% shooting

2006-2007: 2G, 30.0PPG, 5.0RPG, 4.5APG, 40.0% shooting

 

Ray Allen vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 4G, 32.5PPG, 4.0RPG, 2.8APG, 49.4% shooting

2006-2007: 2G, 28.0PPG, 4.0RPG, 6.5APG, 47.6% shooting

 

Carmelo Anthony vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 4G, 30.5PPG, 4.5RPG, 1.8APG, 53.9% shooting

2006-2007: 3G, 30.7PPG, 9.3RPG, 6.0APG, 53.5% shooting

 

Gilbert Arenas vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 28.5PPG, 3.5RPG, 6.0APG, 46.8% shooting

2006-2007: 2G, 42.5PPG, 4.0RPG, 4.5APG, 51.6% shooting

 

Allen Iverson vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 1G, 16.0RPG, 2.0RPG, 2.0APG, 30.4% shooting

2006-2007: 3G, 31.0PPG, 2.3RPG, 8.0APG, 53.3% shooting

 

Vince Carter vs. Suns, 2005-2006: 2G, 21.0PPG, 7.0RPG, 4.0APG, 42.0% shooting

2006-2007: 2G, 27.0PPG, 3.5RPG, 5.0APG, 57.5% shooting

 

 

Need I keep going? Or are you going to make the Raja/Marion tandem out to be like Jordan/Pippen to simply boost Kobe's legacy? They had good perimeter defenders but a horrible defensive scheme and help defense. No perimeter player in the NBA is going to lockdown a great offensive wing on a consistent basis without the help from his teammates and coaching staff. That happens to be precisely one of the main reasons TD is so much more effective defensively than Kobe. For a more recent example, look at what Dwight Howard is able to do with some horrible defensive role players. He has anchored a top 5 defense each of the last few seasons because a great defensive big can make that kind of impact. A perimeter player can't, not even Pippen.

 

Also, those Suns teams were in the bottom 5 of the league in PPG and bottom half in opponent FG%. Their defensive stats looked average because their style of play forced teams to play out of character. If they were truly average defensively, they would have made the Finals at least once with that highly effective offense.

 

Bryant hasn't had to defend anyone on the biggest stage? I'm pretty sure he had to defend Iverson after Fisher was lit up for 48 in Game 1. Bryant held AI to 40% or less from the floor for the next two games, defended him half of the time in the fourth game, and Jackson left it up to Lue and Fisher in Game 5.

 

It was Bryant that had to defend Miller most of the time in 2000, and he came out of the gates and held Reggie to 1-16 from the floor in Game 1 of the NBA Finals. When Bryant was assigned Rose for Game 2, he only played nine minutes...and Rose ended up dropping 30 on LA.

 

He had Kittles, for the most part, against the Nets. Not a big deal.

 

That's just the Finals.

 

Re-read my original post about that. I said since the middle of the 3-peat he hasn't had to do it. And as far as I am concerned, Kobe didn't really hit his prime until Shaq was gone. Since he hit his prime he has never had to take on the most difficult wing player defensively on a big stage. He's had Ariza and Artest to do it. Duncan pretty much has always had to do that since he arrived in the NBA, and had to do it in the big-heavy Western Conference. All the while playing all-time help defense and anchoring one of the top 5-10 defenses of all-time.

 

And even if Kobe had plenty more tough defensive assignments over the years, and even if he kept every single one of those players below their regular season averages, it's not nearly the same impact as Duncan doing the same to big men while protecting the paint against any and all perimeter players trying to get deep into the lane and finish.

 

Jordan came into the league, and to the Bulls, as the primary scoring option. Never, ever had a second option that ran up 22+ a game. Same with Tim Duncan, with the exception of 2009 and Parker (22 PPG) and his rookie season. If Bryant had a Dwight Howard, instead of a Shaq, you really think he wouldn't go on "crazy scoring outbursts" in the playoffs? The 2000-2007 Bryant would have more 50s, easily. Why would you bring that into the debate when you know Bryant and Duncan (and Jordan) didn't start on the same path from the beginning?

 

Since Shaq's departure, Kobe has averaged 30+ in three consecutive playoff seasons, nearly four (29.2 PPG this year), and that's in five seasons. With Shaq? Just one time, out of eight.

 

Ok, let's talk strictly in Jordan and Kobe's prime years ('88-'93 for Jordan, '05-'10 for Kobe), where Kobe had arguably less help than Jordan overall to boost stats:

 

Jordan post-season stats: 91G, 34.4PPG, 6.7RPG, 6.8APG, 50.0% shooting

50pt games: 3, 40pt games: 20 (twice as many as Kobe's career)

 

Kobe post-season stats: 79G, 29.9PPG, 5.7RPG, 5.4APG, 47.0% shooting

50pt games: 1, 40pt games: 7

 

BTW, Jordan's career playoff average is 33.4PPG. Kobe's matched this in only three series his ENTIRE CAREER- In 2001 against the Kings, and in 2008 and 2009 against the Nuggets. But go ahead, keep rationalizing...

 

I don't know why you're still trying to make Tim Duncan out to be as good as Bryant on the offensive end, and that it's taking you to discredit Bryant's post-season performances to get it done, ignoring the other 1,000+ games he's played.

 

I'm not saying Duncan is as good offensively as Kobe is...he simply is not. But in terms of effectiveness, the difference between their offensive games in their prime years is far less than their defensive games. I don't even see how that can be argued.

 

Both in their primes, Bryant is more likely to dominate a single defender, and by dominate, it means 50 points. Will he do it as efficiently as Duncan? No, because Duncan is a big...but there's one thing to say about Tim that none of his supporters like to hear: for a seven-footer who has had an excellent post game and was never declared soft, he sure doesn't shoot like a true big from the floor. Hell, even Barkley shot better.

 

Charles Barkley - 54.1% career FG, seven seasons shooting 55% or better

Kevin McHale - 55.4% career FG, six seasons shooting 55% or better

Tim Duncan - 50.8% career FG, zero seasons shooting 55% or better (just zero?)

 

Might as well continue to nit-pick at everything, but I'll bounce from the regular season to the playoffs and cover every game. 2005 Finals MVP? Shouldn't have gotten it after the Pistons held him to under 42% shooting in the series, forced 37% FG on him in a deciding Game 7 (since Bryant's Game 7 was so bad, and Jordan shot 26% in Game 6 vs. Seattle).

 

Ha I can use the same methods regarding Kobe and use his low career FG % against pretty much every all-time elite wing player in modern NBA history...Jordan, Drexler, Wade, LeBron, Erving, Nique, Dantley, King, etc...

 

And if we are talking Finals stats, Kobe's career stats in the Finals is arguably the worst among the all-time top 25-30 players. Do I even need to bring up his 38% shooting Finals against those same Pistons, where he didn't even grab more 3 boards per game and averaged less than 5 assists? While Duncan shot horribly he also played great defense and never grabbed single digit boards that series, and he blocked less than 2 shots only twice.

[Real Deal]

Why are you nut-hugging MJ in this topic?

 

Low FG%? Jordan shot 50% easily, right? Do you know how many guards shot 50%, 15+ PPG, when Jordan was playing?

 

1. Otis Birdsong

2. Rolando Blackman

3. Mo Cheeks

4. Walter Davis

5. Sherman Douglas

6. Clyde Drexler

7. Joe Dumars

8. Blue Edwards

9. Dale Ellis

10. Sleepy Floyd

11. George Gervin

12. Penny Hardaway

13. Derek Harper

14. Ron Harper

15. Jeff Hornacek

16. Jay Humphries

17. Kevin Johnson

18. Magic Johnson

19. Reggie Lewis

20. Lewis Lloyd

21. Jeff Malone

22. Sarunas Marciulionis

23. Reggie Miller

24. Gary Payton

25. Drazen Petrovic

26. Terry Porter

27. Paul Pressey

28. Mark Price

29. Alvin Robertson

30. Byron Scott

31. Derek Smith

32. Kenny Smith

33. John Stockton

34. Sedale Threatt

35. Doug West

 

After 1996, until 2003 (when Jordan retired), not one guard shot 50% and scored 15 PPG or more.

 

From 1996 (Kobe's draft year) until the 2004-2005 season, no guard shot 50% and scored 15 PPG or more.

 

Since Kobe was drafted, only these players have done it...

 

1. Monta Ellis

2. Steve Nash

3. Tony Parker

4. Chris Paul

5. Deron Williams

 

Credit Imadul at TLN for that list.

 

Are you seriously going to throw that mess out there for me?

 

Again, it's easy to make a player look bad. Jordan was stuck in a box by Gary Payton. Bryon Russell was screwing with his brain.

 

Why bring up what Kobe has done in the Finals, and try to compare that to Jordan?

 

The Utah Jazz were 17th in the NBA, defensively, when Jordan shot bad against them in the NBA Finals. Bryon Rusell and Jeff Hornacek were defending Jordan.

 

Karl's Sonics had a 102.1 defensive rating, second in the league, mainly because of Gary Payton.

 

Would you like to know the 2004 Pistons' defensive rating? 95.4. Boston was also under 100.

 

Both the 2004 Pistons and the 2008 Celtics were among the best defensive teams the league has seen in the last two decades.

 

The 1986 Celtics held opponents to 46% shooting. The 2008 Celtics held them to 41.9% from the floor.

 

The 2004 Pistons? Opponents shot 41.3% against them.

 

Has Jordan ever faced a defense like that in the NBA Finals? Nope...not even close.

 

OPP FG% & Defensive Rating, Finals teams vs. Jordan...

 

1991 Lakers: 46.2%, 105.0

1992 Blazers: 45.4%, 104.2

1993 Suns: 47.9%, 106.7

1996 Sonics: 43.8%, 102.1

1997 Jazz: 43.8%, 104.0

1998 Jazz: 43.9%, 105.4

 

OPP FG% & Defensive Rating, Finals teams vs. Kobe...

 

2000 Pacers: 44.6%, 103.6

2001 Sixers: 42.9%, 98.5

2002 Nets: 42.9%, 99.5

2004 Pistons: 41.3%, 95.4

2008 Celtics: 41.9%, 98.9

2009 Magic: 43.3%, 101.9

2010 Celtics: 45.1%, 103.8

 

Please dude...give me a break.

 

To justify Duncan's "eliteness" over Kobe, you use Jordan as your weapon of choice, then you start slamming Bryant's Finals performances? You talk about how bad Phoenix was defensively (help defense), but you ignore Bell and Marion...say that those man defenders didn't matter. Teams had to commit to doubles against Jordan, or else they couldn't double him...not so much in this era. A few YT highlights aren't going to prove that he was doubled, or tripled, as much as Bryant.

 

Not only that, but you said it yourself earlier: the Spurs ran three or four of the greatest defensive teams of all-time when they were winning their rings...just another opponent with elite defenders (Duncan and Bowen) attempting to keep Bryant at bay.

 

Yeah dude, we get it: Jordan is incredible. He's the GOAT. We don't need to be told that over and over again.

[Diesel]

5. aryvdas Sabonis

4. Dirk Nowitzki

3. lebron james

2. shaquille oneal

1. steve nash

 

this team would play good together and win championship. no kobe he is a losing player and very selfish. team basketball

[Real Deal]

Haha.

[Nitro]

Why are you nut-hugging MJ in this topic?

 

Low FG%? Jordan shot 50% easily, right? Do you know how many guards shot 50%, 15+ PPG, when Jordan was playing?

 

1. Otis Birdsong

2. Rolando Blackman

3. Mo Cheeks

4. Walter Davis

5. Sherman Douglas

6. Clyde Drexler

7. Joe Dumars

8. Blue Edwards

9. Dale Ellis

10. Sleepy Floyd

11. George Gervin

12. Penny Hardaway

13. Derek Harper

14. Ron Harper

15. Jeff Hornacek

16. Jay Humphries

17. Kevin Johnson

18. Magic Johnson

19. Reggie Lewis

20. Lewis Lloyd

21. Jeff Malone

22. Sarunas Marciulionis

23. Reggie Miller

24. Gary Payton

25. Drazen Petrovic

26. Terry Porter

27. Paul Pressey

28. Mark Price

29. Alvin Robertson

30. Byron Scott

31. Derek Smith

32. Kenny Smith

33. John Stockton

34. Sedale Threatt

35. Doug West

 

After 1996, until 2003 (when Jordan retired), not one guard shot 50% and scored 15 PPG or more.

 

From 1996 (Kobe's draft year) until the 2004-2005 season, no guard shot 50% and scored 15 PPG or more.

 

Since Kobe was drafted, only these players have done it...

 

1. Monta Ellis

2. Steve Nash

3. Tony Parker

4. Chris Paul

5. Deron Williams

 

Credit Imadul at TLN for that list.

 

Are you seriously going to throw that mess out there for me?

 

Again, it's easy to make a player look bad. Jordan was stuck in a box by Gary Payton. Bryon Russell was screwing with his brain.

 

Why bring up what Kobe has done in the Finals, and try to compare that to Jordan?

 

The Utah Jazz were 17th in the NBA, defensively, when Jordan shot bad against them in the NBA Finals. Bryon Rusell and Jeff Hornacek were defending Jordan.

 

Karl's Sonics had a 102.1 defensive rating, second in the league, mainly because of Gary Payton.

 

Would you like to know the 2004 Pistons' defensive rating? 95.4. Boston was also under 100.

 

Both the 2004 Pistons and the 2008 Celtics were among the best defensive teams the league has seen in the last two decades.

 

The 1986 Celtics held opponents to 46% shooting. The 2008 Celtics held them to 41.9% from the floor.

 

The 2004 Pistons? Opponents shot 41.3% against them.

 

Has Jordan ever faced a defense like that in the NBA Finals? Nope...not even close.

 

OPP FG% & Defensive Rating, Finals teams vs. Jordan...

 

1991 Lakers: 46.2%, 105.0

1992 Blazers: 45.4%, 104.2

1993 Suns: 47.9%, 106.7

1996 Sonics: 43.8%, 102.1

1997 Jazz: 43.8%, 104.0

1998 Jazz: 43.9%, 105.4

 

OPP FG% & Defensive Rating, Finals teams vs. Kobe...

 

2000 Pacers: 44.6%, 103.6

2001 Sixers: 42.9%, 98.5

2002 Nets: 42.9%, 99.5

2004 Pistons: 41.3%, 95.4

2008 Celtics: 41.9%, 98.9

2009 Magic: 43.3%, 101.9

2010 Celtics: 45.1%, 103.8

 

Please dude...give me a break.

 

Haha ok...first off [b]YOU[/b] brought up Jordan in this topic in comparing he and Hakeem to Kobe and Duncan. I wanted no part of bringing Jordan into this because I knew we'd get to the point where it'd be a pissing contest between me defending Jordan and you defending Kobe. Anyhoo...

 

1) Way to avoid the fact that I completely shutdown your arguement about Jordan and Kobe's overall post-season stats in their prime years.

 

2) Kobe's shot better than 43% only once in 7 Finals' appearances. Chop it, screw it anyway you want, that's not good. Jordan did it 4x in 6 appearances. Those teams you mentioned were not indestructable. Vince Carter averaged 30PPG on 47% shooting in 7 games against those 2001 Sixers. Wade averaged over 30PPG on 55% shooting against the 2010 Celtics (with NO help). LeBron, who supposedly tossed in the towel against the 2010 Celtics shot 45% against them for the series. Ray Allen shot over 44% in the 2000 series against the Pacers. My point? I don't need to compare Kobe to Jordan to show his FG % both in the regular and post-season is at or below par to his competition, both in the past and present (especially when you compare him to Wade and LeBron). Hell, in 2 of the 3 years during Jordan's 2nd 3-peat he shot a better FG% than Kobe EVER has in the regular season. And that was an out of his prime Jordan.

 

3) Jordan averaged 32PPG on 46% shooting against Russel in the 1997 Finals. He averaged 33.5PPG on 43% shooting in the 1998 Finals. Both series' he averaged more points than Kobe ever has in the Finals, and if Kobe put up those stats the shooting percentages would have been good for 2nd and 3rd best in Kobe's career in the Finals.

 

4) If you want Phil Jackson himself to say the one major thing Jordan has on Kobe is his 50%+ seasons, here ya go-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

 

To justify Duncan's "eliteness" over Kobe, you use Jordan as your weapon of choice, then you start slamming Bryant's Finals performances? You talk about how bad Phoenix was defensively (help defense), but you ignore Bell and Marion...say that those man defenders didn't matter. Teams had to commit to doubles against Jordan, or else they couldn't double him...not so much in this era. A few YT highlights aren't going to prove that he was doubled, or tripled, as much as Bryant.

 

First off, I slammed Kobe's Finals' performances because YOUbrought up Duncan's 2005 performance. Stop acting like I'm taking things out of thin air to use against Kobe. You're giving me the ammunition, gift-wrapped.

 

Secondly, I didn't ignore Bell and Marion, and I showed what many of Kobe's peers did to those same players the same seasons. LeBron, Arenas, Allen and Melo especially TORCHED them consistently BOTH seasons.

 

Lastly, I don't need to compare Kobe to Jordan to get my point across about his poor Finals' performances or FG%. Compare him to his other peers that can be considered as top 30 all-time. You'll see the same type of trend.

 

Not only that, but you said it yourself earlier: the Spurs ran three or four of the greatest defensive teams of all-time when they were winning their rings...just another opponent with elite defenders (Duncan and Bowen) attempting to keep Bryant at bay.

 

They ran those defenses with a multitude of different rosters, the one constant being Tim Duncan. You'll see the same thing with Dwight Howard during his career. Big men can make that kind of impact regardless of who their teammates are.

 

Yeah dude, we get it: Jordan is incredible. He's the GOAT. We don't need to be told that over and over again.

 

Then don't bring him up in non-relatable debates to promote Kobe.

[Guru]

5. aryvdas Sabonis

4. Dirk Nowitzki

3. lebron james

2. shaquille oneal

1. steve nash

 

this team would play good together and win championship. no kobe he is a losing player and very selfish. team basketball

Pretty sure he doesn't play anymore lol

[Multi-Billionaire]

Give me a prime Tim Duncan over a prime Kobe any time. Tim drops 25 ppg, 15 rpg, 3 bpg... that's domination right there. Not to mention he's pretty clutch. Without Derek Fisher's 0.4, we'd be talking about the shot before Duncan hit over Shaq while falling to the floor... and the Spurs would probably have beaten the 2004 Pistons.

[Real Deal]

Haha...now wait. I brought Jordan up first, but did NOT relate it to Kobe in any way, shape or form. I asked you if you would take a big (like Duncan) over Jordan (a guard).

 

Then you added, "Kobe is not Jordan." I didn't say a word after that.

 

And a post later, you add, "It's not like we're talking about Jordan, who had 1 career 60pt playoff game, 7 50pt playoff games, and 30 40pt playoff games."

 

Re-read your posts, please. You drove Jordan right into this debate to smash Bryant's offensive production in the post-season, to make Duncan look like a saint. Simple as that.

 

1) Way to avoid the fact that I completely shutdown your arguement about Jordan and Kobe's overall post-season stats in their prime years.

LOL, how did you shut it down? I didn't even compare the two post-season performances...you did that (see above). I simply stated, clear as day, that Bryant would have had many more "scoring outbursts" if he wasn't sharing the ball with someone that dropped 30-40 per game in the post-season.

 

And no, I didn't say he would have more than Jordan. I stated he (Kobe) would have more than he (Kobe) does today.

 

You shut that down by giving me Jordan's numbers versus Bryant's? Haha, okay? Ridiculous, dude. My statement had nothing to do with Jordan, but keep tossing him in there. Point was, Jordan didn't have to share the ball with a 30-40 PPG scorer...ever. By the time Kobe left Shaq and he returned to the playoffs, he was already a month or two away from 28 years old, and he played 12 total playoff games before adding Gasol.

 

And I already gave you the defensive numbers for those teams, but you turn around and show me how good players did against them? Do I need to go see how well players did against the 1998 Jazz, and tell you that Stockton wasn't indestructable?

 

Hell, in 2 of the 3 years during Jordan's 2nd 3-peat he shot a better FG% than Kobe EVER has in the regular season. And that was an out of his prime Jordan.

Funniest of them all. He was out of his prime? He won two MVP awards during the second three-peat. He was 32 years old when the Bulls won 72 games, averaged 29/6/4 in 1997-98 and won the MVP award. From 1996-1998, Jordan played his 10th, 11th and 12th NBA seasons (actually, since he was out an entire season as a sophomore, you could say even less).

 

Bryant is 32 years old heading into this upcoming season, his 15th season. Was he out of his prime last season? The year before? The year before that? So Kobe, in his 10th season (out of his prime, like Jordan was his 10th), put up 35 PPG?

 

 

Jordan averaged more PPG in the Finals than Bryant? Mind-blowing! Iverson averaged 35.6 PPG against the Lakers in the Finals. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been shooting 30+ FGA per game if he had Shaq down low. Kobe has been feeding the post for his entire career with Phil Jackson. Jordan didn't have to feed the post -- Pippen was running the offense. One is the primary option AND facilitator, one is the primary option.

 

Hey, you forgot to tell me why 35 guards shot 50+ percent from the floor during Jordan's era, and why just five have done it since he retired. Guess that's not too significant, though, because it downgrades his "amazing" shooting that is just unheard of for any guard.

 

In Jordan's 11 of his last 18 Finals games (10th, 11th and 12th full seasons in the league, but according to you, out of his prime), he shot under 45%...under 41% in five of those 11. Point? When you play 4-7 games, one or two games will hurt your FG%...the same as one or two will boost it. When Kobe shot 51% against the Nets in the Finals, it was because he had three good shooting games. If he had missed 12 more shots in that series (just 12), his percentage drops to 41%.

 

In a four-game series, the difference between 10 shots is going to be 6-10% or so. Jordan shot better than Kobe in the Finals? Man, good job pointing that out. It doesn't tell me much. That could mean that, in a four-gamer, Kobe missed 2.5 more shots per game. :o

 

If Jordan misses an average of three more shots per game in the 1997 NBA Finals, he drops down to 40% FG, instead of the 46% he shot.

 

Give Jordan two more buckets per game against Payton in 1996, and suddenly, Jordan goes from 41% to 51%, and you'd be bragging about how he dominated one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time, and wouldn't have to make excuses about Jordan exiting his prime.

 

You see how ridiculous those Finals percentages are? But I see you're going to be on top of those, whether you're talking about Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, or Detlef Schrempf.

[Real Deal]

Go ahead and add the final post. I'm done hearing you trash Kobe with Jordan's scoring outputs to argue how well Duncan has produced in the post-season. Seriously...don't really care anymore.

[Guest RSZ]

KOBE AND JORDAN BOTH SUCK DICK. WHY DONT U BOTH GATHER OTRS BEST AND COME TO REALSPORTSZONE AND GET UR ASSES HANDED TO U IN A DEBATE CONTEST WITH OUR BEST NBA POSTERS? NEITHER OF U KNOW [expletive] COMPARED TO OUR NBA GUYS.

[Nitro]

Haha...now wait. I brought Jordan up first, but did NOT relate it to Kobe in any way, shape or form. I asked you if you would take a big (like Duncan) over Jordan (a guard).

 

Then you added, "Kobe is not Jordan." I didn't say a word after that.

 

And a post later, you add, "It's not like we're talking about Jordan, who had 1 career 60pt playoff game, 7 50pt playoff games, and 30 40pt playoff games."

 

Re-read your posts, please. You drove Jordan right into this debate to smash Bryant's offensive production in the post-season, to make Duncan look like a saint. Simple as that.

 

I used that as an example to show what another top 10 all-time wing player has done in terms of scoring explosions in the playoffs to show that Kobe's not exactly doing those exploits much at all in the post-season. More non-Jordan examples...

 

Prime Kobe has 1 50pt game and 6 40pt games in 79 playoff games without Shaq.

T-Mac has 4 40pt games in 38 career post-season games.

Wade has 6 40pt games in 66 career post-season games.

LeBron has 9 40pt games in 71 career post-season games.

AI had 3 50pt games and 7 40pt games in 71 career post-season games.

 

In other words, prime Kobe's number of major post-season scoring explosions are very ordinary compared to his peer IN THIS ERA. They are not unique. Comparing him to prime Jordan he gets blown out of the water in that regard. That really, really takes away from your arguement that his crazy scoring explosions are such a huge advantage against Duncan. Prime Duncan leading his team in nearly every major statistical category, anchoring an all-time defense and averaging 25/15/5/3 in the post-season is more impressive than Kobe's slight improvement over regular season stats and generally taking secondary defensive assignments, while not going off for those crazy dominant performances all that often (like MJ did, which is one of many reasons why the MJ-Hakeem debate is a lot different than the Kobe-Duncan debate).

 

LOL, how did you shut it down? I didn't even compare the two post-season performances...you did that (see above). I simply stated, clear as day, that Bryant would have had many more "scoring outbursts" if he wasn't sharing the ball with someone that dropped 30-40 per game in the post-season.

 

And no, I didn't say he would have more than Jordan. I stated he (Kobe) would have more than he (Kobe) does today.

 

Then that's a pretty damn useless statement. My points earlier in this post show how Kobe without Shaq compares in terms of scoring outbursts to several of his current peers. Not very impressive.

 

And I already gave you the defensive numbers for those teams, but you turn around and show me how good players did against them? Do I need to go see how well players did against the 1998 Jazz, and tell you that Stockton wasn't indestructable?

 

I was using stats from Kobe's peers to show that it's not unheard of to actually play efficient basketball against those teams for a full series. I could use hypotheticals and say, "Jordan would average 50% shooting against the 2008 Celtics, or would drop 40PPG against the 2009 Magic" but that's senseless. Instead I use tangible evidence from lesser talents who played better than Kobe did against those exact same teams. The fact that he was so inefficient with more help than those other players should speak volumes.

 

Funniest of them all. He was out of his prime? He won two MVP awards during the second three-peat. He was 32 years old when the Bulls won 72 games, averaged 29/6/4 in 1997-98 and won the MVP award. From 1996-1998, Jordan played his 10th, 11th and 12th NBA seasons (actually, since he was out an entire season as a sophomore, you could say even less).

 

Jordan was out of his prime. I'm talking absolute peak seasons. I call 2000-2003 Duncan's peak seasons. Jordan's best play was from '88-'93, and nothing much about his demenour or leadership qualities changed much from the first and second 3-peat. The only thing that changed was he lost a good deal of athleticism, couldn't finish around the rim as well, and as a result wasn't as efficient or effective.

 

Bryant is 32 years old heading into this upcoming season, his 15th season. Was he out of his prime last season? The year before? The year before that? So Kobe, in his 10th season (out of his prime, like Jordan was his 10th), put up 35 PPG?

 

 

Kobe is a bit of a special case. He was not the same leader or polished offensive player in the 1st 3-peat that he was starting around 2006. There is NO WAY I'd want to build my franchise around the younger, more immature Kobe. His athleticism has declined in recent years, but his game is more polished and refined while staying just as efficient as he was when he had the extra boost from young legs. His overall peak in terms of having the mix of athleticism and skill was probably 2002-2007, but his effectiveness hasn't taken a hit as he's gotten older, while his leadership qualities have gotten a lot better. Also, his 2003-2004 and 2004-2005 seasons were very injury riddled which hurt his play. That's why I consider Kobe's prime to be '05-'10. Feel free to disagree, it's personal opinion.

 

Jordan averaged more PPG in the Finals than Bryant? Mind-blowing! Iverson averaged 35.6 PPG against the Lakers in the Finals. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been shooting 30+ FGA per game if he had Shaq down low. Kobe has been feeding the post for his entire career with Phil Jackson. Jordan didn't have to feed the post -- Pippen was running the offense. One is the primary option AND facilitator, one is the primary option.

 

In case you forgot, Pippen actually did play in the post quite a bit. And regardless of if Kobe has to feed the post, Gasol takes a full 4 less shots per game than Pippen did at all points of his tenure during the championship years. Jordan in his last 2 Finals' appearances where he struggled still averaged more PPG than Kobe EVER has in 7 tries. Jordan's all-around stats in the Finals, not just scoring, blow Kobe's away. Assists, rebounds, steals, FG%, advanced stats like win-shares, offensive and defensive rating...they all trump Kobe's by a hefty margin.

 

Also, to even hint that Kobe has EVER been restricted in terms of shot attempts is ludacrous. Since he started to hit his groove around 2002 he's ALWAYS had the greenlight to jack up 30+ FGA.

 

Hey, you forgot to tell me why 35 guards shot 50+ percent from the floor during Jordan's era, and why just five have done it since he retired. Guess that's not too significant, though, because it downgrades his "amazing" shooting that is just unheard of for any guard.

 

Never said it's unheard of, but it's pretty common sense that when a player who relies heavily on driving to the basket loses a step or two, his FG% will plummet. For Kobe this was never the case because he was always primarily a jumpshooter since he really hit his groove, which is why with some extra work in the gym he's stayed at the same 45-46% shooting virtually his entire career (which has been an historically long one which is why Kobe is an unbelievable specimen). With Jordan, he went from being arguably the greatest slasher in NBA history to primarily a midrange player in the 2nd 3-peat. Still effective slashing, but not what he once was. And even after that transformation, he was still more efficient than Kobe ever has been...ever.

 

In a four-game series, the difference between 10 shots is going to be 6-10% or so. Jordan shot better than Kobe in the Finals? Man, good job pointing that out. It doesn't tell me much. That could mean that, in a four-gamer, Kobe missed 2.5 more shots per game. :o

 

Your point? Kobe's played in 7 Finals', Jordan 6. Jordan shot 43% or better 5x. Kobe only twice. Jordan never shot below 40% in any of those series'. Kobe did twice.

 

I mean, it's pretty straight-forward.

 

If Jordan misses an average of three more shots per game in the 1997 NBA Finals, he drops down to 40% FG, instead of the 46% he shot.

 

Missing an average of 3 more shots per games is a HUGE difference. If he missed 3 shots per game more that series the team would have lost as 3 of the Bulls' 4 wins were decided by 4pts or less.

 

Once again, trying to rationalize rationalize rationalize history with unrational views. Stop. Please.

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm done with this. It's getting tiring, off-topic and we're just gonna keep going in circles. But as always awesome to debate with you, B. It keeps my basketball knowledge sharp when I have to watch Team USA destroy Angola during the NBA off-season

[Real Deal]

Just need to clarify something quickly...

 

Funniest of them all. He was out of his prime? He won two MVP awards during the second three-peat. He was 32 years old when the Bulls won 72 games, averaged 29/6/4 in 1997-98 and won the MVP award. From 1996-1998, Jordan played his 10th, 11th and 12th NBA seasons (actually, since he was out an entire season as a sophomore, you could say even less).

Jordan was out of his prime.

So Jordan was out of his prime when he won his last three championships? Out of his prime in his 10th season? I have a feeling this will be useful later.

[Nitro]

So Jordan was out of his prime when he won his last three championships? Out of his prime in his 10th season? I have a feeling this will be useful later.

 

When I say prime I mean absolute peak seasons. He was still the best player in the game during the 2nd 3-peat, but he just wasn't the same player he was pre-retirement. He changed his playing style to accomodate his loss of athleticism, and as a result of the more jumpshot-oriented attack, he was less efficient and overall effective. When Wade hits 31 you'll see a similar trend. LeBron will probably be the same, but may start experiencing that slide a bit earlier since he has played far more minutes at 25yo than any player in modern NBA history.

 

Also, not every player has that same 5 year window of prime basketball. I consider that window for TD to be from 2000-2003. For T-Mac it'd be 2002-2005. Dirk's had about a 6 year prime that keeps on growing. It really doesn't matter how long that prime was in this topic as long as it lasted a full season.

[*Swish*]

My 5

 

C: Shaquille O'neal

PF: Dirk Nowitzki

SF: McGrady

SG: Kobe

PG: Nash

[Poe]

My 25

 

#1 Kobe Bryant

#2 LeBron James

#3 Tim Duncan

#4 Shaquille O’Neal

#5 Dwyane Wade

#6 Kevin Garnett

#7 Chris Paul

#8 Tracy McGrady

#9 Steve Nash

#10 Dirk Nowitzki

#11 Jason Kidd

#12 Kevin Durant

#13 Dwight Howard

#14 Grant Hill

#15 Yao Ming

#16 Amar’e Stoudemire

#17 Carmelo Anthony

#18 Gilbert Arenas

#19 Vince Carter

#20 Paul Pierce

#21 Pau Gasol

#22 Ray Allen

#23 Chris Bosh

#24 Manu Ginobili

#25 Brandon Roy