Bryant and all-time Lakers records

[Real Deal]

From Imadul at TLN...

 

*Just regular season stats

 

So as most of you should already know, recently Kobe surpassed Jerry West as the All-Time Lakers leader in points.

 

You may not have known though, that Kobe is the all-time Lakers leader in 3pters, both made and attempted. By a lot.

 

By the end of this upcoming season, Kobe will be the all-time Lakers leader in:

Games played - Needs 73 more to pass Kareem

Minutes played - Should pass Kareem after the first 4 games of the season

FGA - Will pass Elgin Baylor soon enough

 

In 2 years, Kobe will be also be the all-time Lakers leader in:

FGM - He'll surpass Jerry West for 2nd this year, and Kareem the year after

FTM - He's just behind Jerry West right now

FTA - He should pass Jerry in this too in 2 years time

Steals - Needs less than 200 to beat out Magic

 

 

So in just 2 years time, at the age of 34, Kobe will be the Lakers ALL TIME leader in points, games, minutes, FG, FGA, FT, FTM, 3ptM, 3ptA, steals

 

 

How [expletive]ing amazing is that for such a storied franchise, the best in all of NBA history and one of the best in sports? We are witnessing all of this right before our eyes in Kobe Bryant.

 

 

And a few more stats you wouldn't even guess... Kobe is 3rd in assists, 9th in rebounds, and 7th in blocks.

http://thelakersnation.com/forums/index.php?/topic/43947-kobe-in-the-all-time-lakers-record-books/

 

Incredible.

[Poe]

Not surprising to me. It should be expected from the player who (I personally believe) is the best to ever play.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, I may have posted this before, but if Kobe beats the LeBron/Wade led Super-Heat in the NBA Finals and wins finals MVP, that will likely place him as the GOAT over MJ (at least he'll be more widely recognized as the best). Just some food for thought.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Poe

[kingfish]

Not surprising to me. It should be expected from the player who (I personally believe) is the best to ever play.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, I may have posted this before, but if Kobe beats the LeBron/Wade led Super-Heat in the NBA Finals and wins finals MVP, that will likely place him as the GOAT over MJ (at least he'll be more widely recognized as the best). Just some food for thought.

I somewhat agree, it depends on how he plays. If he performs against Miami the way he performed against Boston, he will not get that credit that you mention. Especially if Gasol tears it up again. People will still say Kobe didnt do enough to be on MJ's level, and I might agree with them.

[Check my Stats]

I think Kobe has pretty much destroyed the whole can't do it without Shaq thing the past 2 years but beating Miami would finally put an end to it. Kobe is great but I'm not sure he will ever surpass MJ in the majority's eyes because his first 3 rings will always be discounted.

[Real Deal]

I disagree...don't think the majority will ever put him over Jordan. He wins eight rings? Three were with Shaq, and that's someone Jordan never had (because, of course, Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman -- two greatest defenders of all-time -- are completely irrelevant).

[Nitro]

Edit: Also, I may have posted this before, but if Kobe beats the LeBron/Wade led Super-Heat in the NBA Finals and wins finals MVP, that will likely place him as the GOAT over MJ (at least he'll be more widely recognized as the best). Just some food for thought.

 

Eh...it'll raise his stock, but just because he'll have beaten a few better teams than Jordan ever faced in the Finals doesn't make him a better/greater player. There really isn't one stat, both in the regular and post-season, that sways in Kobe's favor. Pretty much all major awards as an individual sway in Jordan's favor. Most of Kobe's advantages over Jordan never really translated to him being the more effective player, just insanely consistent over as long/a longer period of time (which is what is truly the most amazing thing about Kobe IMO). But that's just my opinion and it's been argued to death time and time and time and time again so let's not go there.

 

Anyway, yeah Kobe's records are truly mind-blowing. It all comes down to, as I said before, his mind-numbing longetivity. He's the only player I've ever seen stay constant in pretty much every area of the game so long. As his athleticism has declined he's slowly added new skills every summer to counteract that, and as a result he's never taken a significant hit in points, FG%, assists, rebounding, etc... The only thing that's really taken a hit has been his man-to-man defense.

[Real Deal]

He's the only player I've ever seen stay constant in pretty much every area of the game so long.

Well, I would consider Kareem another, the way he was still balling after 20 years. He wasn't putting up the big 30/17 he was adding when he was young, but that was also when there were few legit seven-footers defending him.

[Nitro]

Well, I would consider Kareem another, the way he was still balling after 20 years. He wasn't putting up the big 30/17 he was adding when he was young, but that was also when there were few legit seven-footers defending him.

 

Kareem's certainly another, but he wasn't nearly as consistent as Kobe has been for the last 11 years or so. Kareem in a similar timespan jumped around from 22-35PPG, 10-16RPG, 2-5APG, 2-4BPG, and 51-60% shooting.

 

Since '99-'00, Kobe has shot between 45-47% shooting 9 of the 11 seasons (only 2 seasons he didn't he had some major injuries), averaged between 4.9-6.0APG 10 of those 11 seasons, averaged between 5.2-6.9RPG all 11 seasons, and averaged between 24.0-30.0PPG 8 of those 11 seasons. That is REMARKABLE consistency, absolutely unmatched IMO. Over the last 11 years Kobe has played in a LOT more playoff games than Kareem did in his prime as well, which certainly adds to the wear and tear and 'should-be' decline.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

Kareem's certainly another, but he wasn't nearly as consistent as Kobe has been for the last 11 years or so. Kareem in a similar timespan jumped around from 22-35PPG, 10-16RPG, 2-5APG, 2-4BPG, and 51-60% shooting.

 

Since '99-'00, Kobe has shot between 45-47% shooting 9 of the 11 seasons (only 2 seasons he didn't he had some major injuries), averaged between 4.9-6.0APG 10 of those 11 seasons, averaged between 5.2-6.9RPG all 11 seasons, and averaged between 24.0-30.0PPG 8 of those 11 seasons. That is REMARKABLE consistency, absolutely unmatched IMO. Over the last 11 years Kobe has played in a LOT more playoff games than Kareem did in his prime as well, which certainly adds to the wear and tear and 'should-be' decline.

Haha, I agree, I wasn't saying Kareem was more consistent. It's just that Kareem was still effective in his 20th season of playing, which is impressive.

 

When Jordan headed to Washington, he scored 50 as a 40-year old player...but it was evident he wasn't the same, and was pretty inconsistent even netting 20-25 points per.

 

In his 15th season, Malone was still putting up 26 PPG, with 10 boards and 4 assists, 51% FG...and that's pretty impressive as well, especially considering the fact he missed just six total games heading into that season, and never missed the playoffs (158 playoff games when his 15th season ended).

 

Bryant already has more playoff games under his belt. Malone started declining (showing it through his stats) after playing 1,192 regular season games, 158 playoff games. Bryant is still going strong at 1,021 regular season games, 198 playoff games.

 

Pretty close.

[ChosenOne]

As Brandon said "Incredible"

 

imo he is the greatest basketball player to have ever played this game, but obviously that can be debated with no correct answer.

 

The next couple of years are going to be great for Kobe, The Lakers, and all true basketball fans. I really hope he can manage to stay healthy I believe that is going to be the toughest obstacle for him at this point, in his career as the miles and miles start to add up.

[Guest Michael Jordan]

Kareem=Greatest Laker ever

Kobe=Greatest Laker champion ever

[GamerGuy]

Kareem=Greatest Laker ever

Kobe=Greatest Laker champion ever

Kareem wasn't even a Laker his entire career...how could he be the greatest Laker ever? You would have a better argument with Magic than Kareem.

 

But at the pace Kobe's playing, he'll easily be the greatest Laker player when it's all said and done. I think he's already there, but can you imagine the record books when he retires? Goodness.

[Real Deal]

The fifth ring capped it off. Magic won five, and most LA fans were waiting for Bryant's.

 

Overall player, Bryant topples Magic. I don't see how that's even up for debate. Add the rings? It's even, and it's not like Magic wasn't playing with a Shaq of his own, plus an all-star or two, arguably had more help than Kobe ever did (Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, Green).

 

I've had plenty of Lakers fans tell me that Magic is better than MJ, that he played "stellar defense" and could score 50 whenever he wanted, but he just wanted to be less selfish. Please. I love Magic, but none of that is true.

[Nitro]

Overall player, Bryant topples Magic. I don't see how that's even up for debate.

 

More skilled? Probably, but you can say that when comparing Kobe to ANY player in NBA history. I lost the quote but Riley said something along the lines of, "A player who has a wide variety of different shots is great, but teams win with efficiency/effectiveness." That's my mindset when comparing the all-time greats (or any players for that matter). Kobe having so many different skills is an amazing asset, but it doesn't necessarily make him better than player B. IMO where having such skill becomes useful is when a defense forces you to do something out of your comfort zone, and more well-rounded players can still be effective because they are proficient in all areas of the court. However, there are a very rare few who aren't as skilled as Kobe that can still dominate those defenses despite their deficiencies (like Wade tearing apart the 2006 Pistons [60%+ shooting for the series] and 2010 Celtics [33PPG on 55% shooting]). And when you consider the fact that over the course of the season against all 29 other teams they may be more productive/efficient than Kobe, it becomes a LOT harder to favor Kobe in the debate. Not saying he is or isn't currently the best player in the league, or is or isn't one of the top 10 players of all-time, but I think some people are too mesmerized by Kobe's GOAT level polished skillset and not on the meat and bones of player effectiveness.

 

With that said, I have NO idea how you can say Kobe is overall a better player than Magic Johnson without debate. We are talking about a guy who many feel is top 3 all-time and undisputably the greatest PG that has ever played the game. I think that's ridiculous, and almost anyone you ask with reasonable basketball knowledge will have Magic over Kobe on their all-time rankings. Not saying I agree or disagree with that, but to say it isn't even a debate is crazy talk. Same thing as if someone said Magic is the better player without debate.

[Real Deal]

The debate is the all-time rankings, because it includes personal and team accomplishments. Magic has the MVP's and was a superstar for all five of his rings (Kobe for four of his...can't consider Kobe a superstar in 2000, just an amazing all-star).

 

But overall game? I don't think it's close. I don't see anyone touching Kobe or Jordan.

 

People are going to be forced to add Steve Nash to discussions as far as greatest PG's of all-time go, as in top 6-7, because he has two MVP awards and is one of the best passers in the history of the game, not to mention probably in the top three best shooters of all-time at the point. But overall? He's a horrible defender. Will people remember that? Probably not.

 

I still don't get the comparisons to slashing superstar guards and forwards, especially when they are in their 20's. At 22 or 23 years old, Bryant would've eaten those teams alive by slashing to the rim...but he wasn't given that opportunity to go into isolation every play, not in the triangle while Shaq is sitting down low.

 

Bryant's "lack of efficiency" has been made up by his ability to draw doubles and triples more than anyone not named Shaq in the last 20-30 years (won't dip into Wilt or Kareem's era because I really have no idea).

 

When he was without O'Neal, he didn't have much to work with...at all. You gave us that argument for McGrady, so you should accept it for Bryant.

 

Kareem was far, far less efficient than Shaq...but I don't hear anyone talking about that. Shaq's lowest FG% in any season is 55.7%. Guess how many times Kareem shot lower than that? Eight times, and six of those eight were in the first nine years of his career, when he was putting up his best numbers.

[Real Deal]

Deja vu, every time...can't talk about Kobe without noting how inefficient he is. He averaged 35, BUT he didn't shoot 50% like Sherman Douglas or Mark Price did when they averaged 19-20 PPG, or the other 35-40 guards that did it in the 80's and 90's.

 

Kobe put up 27 40+ point games in 2005-06, BUT that was in the regular season.

 

Nash was much more efficient, and he is an excellent passer, so might as well consider Nash a top 20 player in NBA history. Efficiency is through the roof with Steve...six consecutive seasons of 50% shooting or better, 13 of his 14 seasons shooting over 40% from three, six of his last eight seasons shooting 90% or better from the free throw line. Not even God (Jordan) accomplished that.

 

I'm already done talking about Kobe in the topic created just for him. Go figure.

[Nitro]

The debate is the all-time rankings, because it includes personal and team accomplishments. Magic has the MVP's and was a superstar for all five of his rings (Kobe for four of his...can't consider Kobe a superstar in 2000, just an amazing all-star).

 

But overall game? I don't think it's close. I don't see anyone touching Kobe or Jordan.

 

People are going to be forced to add Steve Nash to discussions as far as greatest PG's of all-time go, as in top 6-7, because he has two MVP awards and is one of the best passers in the history of the game, not to mention probably in the top three best shooters of all-time at the point. But overall? He's a horrible defender. Will people remember that? Probably not.

 

Because Kobe and Magic play/played two completely different roles, it's a little harder to compare than just black and white. Magic made perhaps the greatest impact of any player in NBA history on the offensive end of the ball with his playmaking/passing, and led the greatest offense in NBA history. He could score quite well when needed. And somewhere on RealGM some guy showed he made one of the greatest impact on the boards of any player in NBA history, which cannot be looked past.

 

Basically what I am getting at is raw skill-wise, Kobe will have pretty much any player beat. But in terms of impact on the game and teammates, saying Magic trumps Kobe isn't far-fetched whatsoever. In fact, most would agree with that.

 

And of course people will remember Nash is a horrible defender. He has to be hidden on that side of the ball, and it's why he's never really been considered a top 3 player in the league despite his 2 MVP's.

 

I still don't get the comparisons to slashing superstar guards and forwards, especially when they are in their 20's. At 22 or 23 years old, Bryant would've eaten those teams alive by slashing to the rim...but he wasn't given that opportunity to go into isolation every play, not in the triangle while Shaq is sitting down low.

 

Give me a break. Ever since Kobe entered that superstar realm he's been a jumpshooter with a slashing game, never the other way around, and that is by his own mentality and style of play. When he was younger he had exceptional slashing ability, but not on the level of guys like Jordan/Wade/LeBron, and it was never his bread and butter. Games with Shaq, games without Shaq, in or out of the triangle...he was never a guy to eat teams alive on the drive consistently. It's never been what he's comfortable with because it's just not his game.

 

And he was what, 26-27, when Shaq left? That lane opened up wide yet Kobe's game remained the same. When Kobe got Gasol, his game remained the same.

 

Bryant's "lack of efficiency" has been made up by his ability to draw doubles and triples more than anyone not named Shaq in the last 20-30 years (won't dip into Wilt or Kareem's era because I really have no idea).

 

Cop-out...major cop-out. Maybe for 2-3 years he had that kind of attention, but for the rest of his career? No. Not on a different plane from what LBJ has faced virtually his entire career, or what Wade has had to face the last 2 seasons. Yet both of those guys stayed more efficient than Kobe ever has despite those double and triple teams.

 

When he was without O'Neal, he didn't have much to work with...at all. You gave us that argument for McGrady, so you should accept it for Bryant.

 

Don't know which arguement you're talking about with McGrady, and I find it funny you're going to use T-Mac as an example, who's not even a top 50 player all-time and who for his career was always a pretty inefficient scorer.

 

Kareem was far, far less efficient than Shaq...but I don't hear anyone talking about that. Shaq's lowest FG% in any season is 55.7%. Guess how many times Kareem shot lower than that? Eight times, and six of those eight were in the first nine years of his career, when he was putting up his best numbers.

 

Shaq was also a guy who led the entire league in FG% multiple seasons, so you're comparing Kareem to the gold standard of FG efficiency. And I think most people, at least on the offensive end, would probably take a prime Shaq over prime Kareem. Where Kareem has a distinct advantage is defensively, and when comparing careers his longetivity.

[Real Deal]

You say he had 2-3 seasons without Shaq or Gasol to drive and score efficiently...then you say he was doubled and tripled, almost as much as O'Neal, for 2-3 seasons (and I know which seasons you're talking about). Think about that.

 

How is the obvious a cop-out? Why was Kobe playing so much in the post when Bynum or Gasol was injured, but moved right out of it when both returned to the lineup? He was shooting better than 48% with just Drew in the five this season (when Gasol missed the first 11 games), and that was against more doubles than he saw for the rest of the regular season.

 

Was shooting 49-50% for the first 30 or so games of the year, right before the finger re-injury.

 

Yeah, Bryant never did get to the rim like LeBron or Jordan. No reason to kick dirt in his face, though, because when Kobe didn't have a primed post presence (two post players currently), he didn't have a legit second scoring option OR any shooters. No Kukoc, Kerr, Paxson, Armstrong, Williams, West, Jones, Gibson, Ilgauskas, Parker, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic...ALL guys that were teammates of Jordan or James and were knocking down threes at 40% or better while playing alongside those guys.

 

Shooters spread the floor, opening up lanes, turning collapsing defenses stationary. One of the most valuable players a superstar can have as a teammate.

 

Who were Bryant's three-point shooting teammates (40% or better) in those three seasons without a post presence? Brian Cook, who couldn't play over 15-20 minutes a game because he was so pathetic. And...that's it.

 

Efficiency isn't that big of a deal, or else people would still be questioning why Kareem wasn't shooting 58-60% every season, why Gasol shot under 54% for a big last year, why Hakeem NEVER shot 54% in a single season, and why all three of the players I mentioned have two or more championships because of their contributions.

 

Dwight Howard is more efficient than all of the above. Career-wise, he's almost up to par with Shaq. Doesn't mean much, though...because his offensive game is nowhere near the level of Yao Ming's, who is also having trouble posting 55% from the field, a career average of under 53%.

 

Efficiency is overrated.