Prime: Shaq and Kobe VS The Miami 3

[Real Deal]

Shaq's highest scoring average was 29.7 points per game. LeBron's highest was 30, and Wade's highest was 30.2. If nobody can guard Shaq... then why is his highest average lower than both LeBron and Wade, who can so easily be guarded?

McGrady averaged 30 PPG also. Are you trying to tell us that McGrady was more difficult to defend than O'Neal?

 

I'm not even going to bother with this topic, if you're going to go that route. That's absolutely ridiculous.

[Real Deal]

And I've never seen people try to underrate a team so much my whole life. Unless there are major chemistry and jelling issues (which is unlikely since they took paycuts to play with one another), or if one or two of these players get a sudden major dropoff in their game, this could be the greatest trio the NBA has ever seen.

LOL, dude...you can quote me right now: the Heat will make the Finals.

 

Now, let me quote you when you say the Heat will win seven consecutive rings.

 

LeBron is in your head. For a few years, you were all over Cavs fans' asses about how they overrate him, how they overrate their team, etc. Now, you're following their footsteps.

[Abro]

The Heat 3 easily.. Its barely a comparison imo u have Wade and LeBron who isnt a different LeBron than we saw the last few seasons.. Then u throw Bosh into the mix? Its The Heat easy.

[Real Deal]

I'm really not sure if you guys are serious with this mess, or not.

 

I mean, to say that a Wade and LeBron duo is on the same level as Kobe and Shaq? That's already hitting rock bottom to begin with.

 

Basketball isn't math.

 

Garnett + Rondo + Pierce + Allen + Perkins > Kobe + Gasol + Odom + Artest + injured Drew?

 

Was LeBron supposed to beat the Detroit Pistons? I mean, come on...Billups + Rip + Prince + Ben + Sheed > LeBron + West, right?

 

[Poe]

McGrady averaged 30 PPG also. Are you trying to tell us that McGrady was more difficult to defend than O'Neal?

 

No, I was being sarcastic. He said Shaq couldn't be guarded and Wade and LeBron could, even though they both average roughly the same points and even the same true shooting percentage. They both scored just as efficiently as the other (LeBron's TS% is 60.4, and Shaq in his prime was 60.1, though Wade is more significantly lower at 57.7).

 

 

Now, let me quote you when you say the Heat will win seven consecutive rings.

 

I don't think I've made a prediction yet, so you have nothing to quote.

 

 

LeBron is in your head. For a few years, you were all over Cavs fans' asses about how they overrate him, how they overrate their team, etc. Now, you're following their footsteps.

 

Find a quote where I said that LeBron is anywhere lower than the 2nd best player in the NBA. I said it when he was in a Cavs uniform and I still say it now.

 

All I ever knocked against LeBron was his immaturity. He acts like a kid, and as much as I think his choice to leave Cleveland shouldn't be judged so harshly, I still think he's immature.

 

 

Also, I haven't been on this site "for a few years". I've barely been here for over one and a half (started in the 2009 playoffs, and I'm posting now when the 2010-11 season is just beginning).

[Abro]

Im dead serious.. Nobody could guard dwade or lebron on their respective teams n now tht they are put together nobody will be able to, then throw bosh in the mix who is a 20/10 player? Thts dangerous.

[ChosenOne]

Im dead serious.. Nobody could guard dwade or lebron on their respective teams n now tht they are put together nobody will be able to, then throw bosh in the mix who is a 20/10 player? Thts dangerous.

 

He is a 20/10 player as a #1 option, now being the third option I don't see that happening.

[Hawks Fly High]

SMH AT THESE HEAT FANS.

 

Now lets think about this rationally. Who is going to defend Shaq down low? Joel Anothy, Big Z lol no one can stop him down their. Maybe if you guys had Ben Wallace we could make a conversation but unfortunetly you don't. If the Heat attempted to play Hack-A-Shaq Lebron/Wade/Bosh would pick up fouls and would end up sitting on the bench for longer periods of the time. We havent seen how Wade and Lebron mesh also, it could be beautiful or it could just be plain out ugly to see them fight for the ball. And Prime Shaq and Kobe both drew double and triple teams more than any of those 3. So who do you triple? You triple Shaq, then Kobe will take over, and if you triple Kobe then just give it to Shaq down low. With good single coverage you still contain Wade or Lebron and dont even get me started on Bosh. Also i doubt Lebron and Wade will crash the paint as much with a Prime Shaq camping out there.

[*Swish*]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9831/1249287503icecube.gif

No it's not.

[Hawks Fly High]

Kobe is arguable the GOAT and Shaq is arguable the greatest center of all time in his prime. Wade is a top 30 player and lebron is a top 20 player (right now!) Bosh also isnt that good

[Check my Stats]

If 25 and 11 on 50% isn't good I don't know what is, regardless of who you are playing with.

[Real Deal]

Haha, I honestly don't know what else to say. Lakers fans are usually hated because they are homers, but our "homerism" kicks in AFTER we win something. This Miami Heat trio is in the same exact boat as the Arenas, Jamison and Butler trio: no rings. And, well, no nothing. No wins. No 50-win season. Nothing.

 

I get the feeling some fans WANT their team to be the center of attention. Not going to throw Cleveland fans under the bus too much, but they were the same way at one point.

 

Just don't raise that bar too high. I'm sure a lot of members on OTR can cook up a mean crow.

[Check my Stats]

I think we are talking about which team we would rather build around, not which groups have accomplished more together.

 

EDIT: For the record I took Kobe and Shaq, I am just saying it isn't as far fetched as some are making it seem to take the trio, provided you have a good argument to back up your decision.

Edited September 24, 2010 by travesy3

[Hawks Fly High]

If 25 and 11 on 50% isn't good I don't know what is, regardless of who you are playing with.

im saying relatively to the 4 other players who are on a totally other level

[Check my Stats]

So what if he isn't comparable? He is still probably a top 20 player in the NBA lol, he is relevant to the discussion. We are talking about 4 hall of famers and a perennial all-star, the all-star definitely makes an impact in the discussion. Especially when he compliments Wade/LBJ so well.

[Real Deal]

I think we are talking about which team we would rather build around, not which groups have accomplished more together.

 

EDIT: For the record I took Kobe and Shaq, I am just saying it isn't as far fetched as some are making it seem to take the trio, provided you have a good argument to back up your decision.

Yeah, I actually had to think about it, as far as building around them. That was my original answer.

 

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/17508-prime-shaq-and-kobe-vs-the-miami-3/page__view__findpost__p__184531

 

But when I see someone saying that it's not even close? That the Wade and LeBron duo, alone, are on the same level as the Kobe and Shaq duo? That's feeding a different beast.

[Hawks Fly High]

So what if he isn't comparable? He is still probably a top 20 player in the NBA lol, he is relevant to the discussion. We are talking about 4 hall of famers and a perennial all-star, the all-star definitely makes an impact in the discussion. Especially when he compliments Wade/LBJ so well.

we really dont know that yet.

[AboveLegit]

Ummm.... okay. .....why?

The Heat trio has virtually no interior defense, while the Kobe/Shaq duo beats them on both perimeter D and interior D.

 

We're talking about two of the top 3 best players at their respective position.

 

Most talk about the numbers and Shaq's superior efficiency, but it's hardly brought up that Phil expected a young Kobe to guide a heavily pressured Laker squad down the stretch of close games. Real man to man defense can't be put into numbers, casual fans can't grasp what Kobe brought on that end. Kobe was without a doubt- the best defender on that Laker team and the league took notice of a young/energetic Kobe Bryant's consistent defense by tabbing him an All-NBA defender

 

And I don't even need to discuss Kobe's offensive game in his prime, the numbers speak for itself.

 

And as for Shaq, he's quite possibly the most dominant player ever.

 

Give me the dominant big man (which is a rarity in this league) and one of the greatest offensive threats in league history to build my team around. You've essentially added two significant aspects of basketball, a post player, and a wing. All that is left are players that can shoot the ball. With the Heat trio, you still have a huge issue with your interior. Shaq would take Bosh out of the game without breaking a sweat, while wrecking havoc on offense. Not to mention he would cause problems for Wade and LeBron when they decide to drive in on him and Kobe.

[Poe]

The Heat trio has virtually no interior defense, while the Kobe/Shaq duo beats them on both perimeter D and interior D.

 

How does Kobe and Shaq win in perimeter D when they have 1 great perimeter defender in Kobe, and the Heat have 2 in Wade and LeBron?

 

And how does the Lakers win in the interior so badly when Kobe and Shaq's combined blocks per game are about 4.0, while the LeBron, Wade, and Bosh trio combine for about 3.8?

 

 

We're talking about two of the top 3 best players at their respective position.

 

Most talk about the numbers and Shaq's superior efficiency, but it's hardly brought up that Phil expected a young Kobe to guide a heavily pressured Laker squad down the stretch of close games. Real man to man defense can't be put into numbers, casual fans can't grasp what Kobe brought on that end. Kobe was without a doubt- the best defender on that Laker team and the league took notice of a young/energetic Kobe Bryant's consistent defense by tabbing him an All-NBA defender

 

And I don't even need to discuss Kobe's offensive game in his prime, the numbers speak for itself.

 

And as for Shaq, he's quite possibly the most dominant player ever.

 

I love how everyone is talking about Kobe and Shaq and saying what great players they are, then talking about LeBron and Wade as if they are just okay players.

 

I'm going to repeat myself: Kobe is arguably the best SG to ever play, and Shaq is arguably the best C. ALSO, LeBron is arguably the best SF to ever play, and Wade is arguably the best combo guard... Again, WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

 

 

 

Alright, obviously my Heat homer glasses are blinding me, so let's compare some non-biased PER statistics from their peak years:

 

 

LeBron James: 31.7

Dwyane Wade: 30.4

Chris Bosh: 25.0

 

Versus

 

Shaquille O'Neal: 30.6

Kobe Bryant: 28.0

Glen Rice: 19.7

 

 

Well, what do you know? I added in Glen Rice, and the Heat Trio STILL wins by 8.8.

 

 

Put them head to head, you have to treat both sides the same. Put an average PER player against Shaq, then you have to put an average PER player against Bosh. Both players will destroy the opposition. Not to mention LeBron outmatches Rice by a large margin.

 

Take away Rice, and it's even worse. You have both LeBron AND Bosh being guarded by average players, while Kobe is being guarded by Wade leaving Shaq as the only player guarded by an average opponent. Shaq would have to outwork his opponent by the production of both a superstar and a perennial all star in order for the duo to be EVEN.

 

 

Again, it's not even close. You have three players that require double teams versus two. You're comparing two elite players with two elite players, which is roughly even and perhaps the Laker duo is better, but once you add one duo a perennial all star... I don't see the question.

[EastCoastNiner]

There are so many things you are saying that are making you lose the little credibility you have.

 

I'll just name two that stood out.

 

1. No one said LeBron and Wade were just okay players. They said they though Kobe and Shaq were better.

 

2. You used blocks to talk about interior play.......You do know that LeBron and Wade aren't centers, and Shaq is probably the greatest center in NBA history. So, I have no clue how the "trio" wins the interior battle. .

 

You're just trying to go player by player and not match-ups.

 

Take off the homer glasses, and we'll bump this thread once Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum take hope their 3rd straight ring this year against the Heat, and I hate to say that.

[Poe]

There are so many things you are saying that are making you lose the little credibility you have.

Who is to say how much credibility I have over anyone else on these forums? None of us are professional analysts, at least as far as I know.

 

 

I'll just name two that stood out.

1. No one said LeBron and Wade were just okay players. They said they though Kobe and Shaq were better.

 

That's not what I was pointing at. Everyone is so focused on Kobe and Shaq's achievements that they forget that Wade and LeBron are at nearly the same level individually.

 

 

2. You used blocks to talk about interior play.......You do know that LeBron and Wade aren't centers, and Shaq is probably the greatest center in NBA history. So, I have no clue how the "trio" wins the interior battle. .

Interior presence isn't restricted to a single position, you do know this, right? Blocks are the only measurement out there for interior defense that I know of, and the trio averages nearly the same as the duo.

 

 

Take off the homer glasses, and we'll bump this thread once Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum take hope their 3rd straight ring this year against the Heat, and I hate to say that.

Damn, I wish I had that crystal ball of yours. It would be really helpful, as well as that credibility card.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Poe

[Abro]

Okay well since we will NEVER see the trio vs. The duo it means tht we can only go on stats.. And since we're only comparing the 5 players.. I still cant see how the 3 couldnt beat the 2 since the stats kill kobe and shaq since all we can base this off of is stats.. I still cant see how Poe has Homer glasses on i just think ur all blinded and basing off of what kobe and shaq have accomplished which shouldnt be a factor in this comparison.

[EastCoastNiner]

You don't have to block shots to defer players from wanting to drive to the basket. A big body presence is enough to make players think twice about going inside.

[Real Deal]

Everyone is so focused on Kobe and Shaq's achievements that they forget that Wade and LeBron are at nearly the same level individually.

It's not April Fool's, so I seriously do not get this.

 

Prime Kobe locks up either one today. He doesn't need double teams to do it. Shaq would toy with Chris Bosh so much, he would make Bosh look like Slaven Medvedenko in the post.

 

I really can't believe this is a discussion. Who are the two voters that selected the trio? Just curious...

[NomarFachix]

The Heat fanboys are going to make this upcoming season so unbearable...