Prime: Shaq and Kobe VS The Miami 3

[Check my Stats]

we really dont know that yet.

 

In theory they should compliment Bosh perfectly.... Bosh shot 50% on isolation plays and a lot of jumpers, imagine how good his percentage will be with all the wide open 15 footers he will get off Wade/LBJ's penetration, all the dump off dunks like Pau/Bynum get.

 

Bosh and Shaq wouldn't even be guarding on another, why are people saying this... and if they were Bosh would take advantage of Shaq as well, not to the same extent Shaq would rape him, but Bosh is a major mismatch for Shaq as well, especially if they just run him on the pick and roll/pop to death. There is equal likelihood that Shaq OR Bosh could be in major foul trouble, the only difference is Shaq in foul trouble leaves one legend on the court, while Bosh in foul trouble leaves 2.

Edited September 24, 2010 by travesy3

[Poe]

It's not April Fool's, so I seriously do not get this.

 

Me neither. How do people vote 2 elite players over 2 elites AND a perennial all star is beyond me. It just shows how much people are in denial about this Heat team.

[NomarFachix]

Me neither. How do people vote 2 elite players over 2 elites AND a perennial all star is beyond me. It just shows how much people are in denial about this Heat team.

 

You are putting prime Shaq and prime Kobe on the same level as LeBron and Wade by calling all four "elites". Sorry, but prime Shaq/Kobe > LeBron/Wade. You cannot use the same qualifier to describe them, they simply don't compare.

[Poe]

You cannot use the same qualifier to describe them, they simply don't compare.

 

How?

[Real Deal]

How?

You might be the only person on OTR that thinks Wade and LeBron are on the same level as Kobe and Shaq. That speaks volumes.

 

I could care less what their numbers are as individual players on separate teams. Kevin Martin could average 25-30 points by himself...doesn't mean much to me. Bryant and Shaq averaged nearly 60 combined points, were the two responsible for the dynasty in Los Angeles, and they didn't need a third 20 PPG scorer to get it done.

 

This is similar to all of those mocks we ran in the past, when my brother was ripping people off by combining his players' stats, and snagging a superstar with a borderline all-star, a sixth man and deep bench players.

 

Jordan and Pippen, Kobe and Shaq, Magic and Kareem. Don't ever stick Wade and LeBron in that group of players, ever, until they have accomplished true greatness.

[Poe]

Jordan and Pippen, Kobe and Shaq, Magic and Kareem. Don't ever stick Wade and LeBron in that group of players, ever, until they have accomplished true greatness.

 

Why not? I really don't understand. LeBron is a two time MVP and Wade has a finals MVP. Both players have had seasons with 30+ PER, something that even Magic and Pippen have never done.

 

 

Fine, I'll put it on your terms so you can understand.

 

LeBron led a team of Erick Snow, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas into the NBA Finals, which got beat by a much superior team including Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili. Don't forget the kind of effort and outstanding performances it took for LeBron to get his team there, like scoring his team's final 25 points or so against the Pistons. He's also a part of a number of other accomplishments, like being one of 5 rookies or so to average 20 - 5 - 5.

 

Other than leading a team into a championship, Wade led the Heat to the 5th seed in 08-09 where the second best scorer averaged 13 ppg... off the bench. He should have won MVP that year. Also IIRC, he's the only player 6'4'' or under to have over 100 blocks in a season. I'm sure there are plenty of other records Wade has set that I can't think of at the moment.

 

 

It's funny how much you guys are attempting to underrate these players, and I'm astonished that I have to remind you how good they actually are. They are superstars, just like Kobe and Shaq. They are offensive nightmares where defensive gameplans are made to slow down these players, just like Kobe and Shaq. They are arguably the best to ever play their position, just like Kobe and Shaq.

 

 

So really, comparing Wade and LeBron to Kobe and Shaq is roughly even. Perhaps the Lakers have an advantage since I do believe Kobe is the best to ever play. What you're forgetting is that you are giving one side Chris Bosh, who led a team including TJ Ford, Anthony Parker, Joey Graham, and Rasho Nesterovic to the third seed in 06-07. That changes the game, and gives the Heat duo a third legitimate star, which gives them a clear advantage.

 

 

So again, it's not even close. But feel free to throw more attempts at an argument against it.

 

 

 

Edit: Here, maybe this will put off the emotions and bias for the Lakers and against the Heat. Say I removed Kobe and replaced him with Wade.

 

 

Wade/Shaq vs Kobe/LeBron/Bosh

 

Not even close right? Or how about:

 

Kobe/LeBron vs Shaq/Wade/Bosh

 

..or how about:

 

Wade/LeBron vs Kobe/Shaq/Bosh

 

 

I can keep going. The latter always wins.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Poe

[NomarFachix]

Still acting like it's 3 on 2 at the local park, which is laughable.

[Poe]

Still acting like it's 3 on 2 at the local park, which is laughable.

 

I'm not, but you'd already know that if you actually read my posts. But since all you read and write are one sentence responses... damn, I guess I should stop typing now. I've written too much for you.

[NomarFachix]

I'm sorry, I'll try and turn my short and to the point responses into overblown, drawn out, redundant, blowhard, 500 word essays. The Poe way or the highway.

 

I'll try and throw some blind homerism and a complete lack of objectivity in there for ya too.

[Real Deal]

LeBron led a team of Erick Snow, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas into the NBA Finals

You forgot the second best scorer on the team, but that would make sense for you to leave him off and include Pavlovic (who didn't even start, originally).

 

And Allen Iverson did the same thing with all of his shooters and defensive-minded players and coach, in 2001. They basically had the same build, team-wise. A 30 PPG slasher that can get to the rim at will (LeBron, Iverson) will win 50-60 games and have an excellent team if he's surrounded by defensive players and shooters, and a defensive-minded coach.

 

That team LeBron led to the Finals was 4th defensively, 18th offensively. Back in 2007, LeBron was not known as an elite defensive player.

 

The fact of the matter is, Kobe and Shaq are great. Wade and LeBron are very, very good. There's a big difference between the words "great" and "good" in the game of basketball.

 

Nine rings, from two legends of the game, two top ten of all-time (arguably top five when they both retire), mentioned in the same sentence as three guys that don't want to compete against each other while they are in their primes, that have a combined one ring, that have fans that can't even SETTLE for others saying their unproven superstar trio will make the Finals? Please. I'm sincerely done debating this nonsense.

[Poe]

I'm sorry, I'll try and turn my short and to the point responses into overblown, drawn out, redundant, blowhard, 500 word essays. The Poe way or the highway.

 

I'll try and throw some blind homerism and a complete lack of objectivity in there for ya too.

 

You can say that about any poster that actually takes the time to support their argument if you wish, as much as I can call any one-sentence post a brainless remark that isn't worth acknowledging.

 

Sorry if taking the time to actually create an argument and supporting it with facts and reason isn't supercool to you, but rather skimming through the other person's post and pinpointing a small part to mock. [expletive], that's a second sentence... better stop before this guy's head explodes from all the reading I'm making him do on a discussion board.

[Poe]

You forgot the second best scorer on the team, but that would make sense for you to leave him off and include Pavlovic (who didn't even start, originally).

Sorry, I wrote Erick Snow instead of Larry Hughes. My mistake. Still an amazing feat from LeBron.

 

 

And Allen Iverson did the same thing with all of his shooters and defensive-minded players and coach, in 2001. They basically had the same build, team-wise. A 30 PPG slasher that can get to the rim at will (LeBron, Iverson) will win 50-60 games and have an excellent team if he's surrounded by defensive players and shooters, and a defensive-minded coach.

 

That team LeBron led to the Finals was 4th defensively, 18th offensively. Back in 2007, LeBron was not known as an elite defensive player.

 

Only elite scorers such as Iverson and LeBron could have a system work with them being featured. In their primes, Iverson was elite. LeBron is a better player than AI, however.

 

Put Kobe in the same situation and he probably would have been able to lead a defensive team deep into the playoffs in the right situation. That's because Kobe is elite as well. He probably would come close to the ring as well, if he doesn't run into a Duncan/Manu/Parker or a Kobe/Shaq.

 

 

Nine rings, from two legends of the game, two top ten of all-time (arguably top five when they both retire), mentioned in the same sentence as three guys that don't want to compete against each other while they are in their primes, that have a combined one ring, that have fans that can't even SETTLE for others saying their unproven superstar trio will make the Finals? Please. I'm sincerely done debating this nonsense.

 

So it's because of the ring count that makes Shaq and Kobe better? That doesn't make much sense, since Kobe and Shaq actually got to play with each other, and then Kobe had another legitimate championship team years later.

 

Wade only had a legitimate second option one time and won a ring with it, and LeBron's best second option was Mo Williams. Pair LeBron with Shaq and I'm sure they would have won a ton of rings as well. Pair LeBron with Kobe, same thing. Pair LeBron with Wade.... AND Bosh? I'll let that sink in...

 

 

You're comparing something that's happened to something that is about to happen. Just because we've seen one doesn't make it automatically better.

 

So, for example.... we take two basketballs and we are going to measure how high each of them bounce. We decided to drop one, and it bounces high, yet we don't bounce the other. Do we automatically assume that one is better because we've seen it but not the other? Or how about we take the time to measure the amount of air is in both balls, then make an educated guess?

 

 

In the trio vs the duo's case, we've seen how one played out but not the other. For now, all we have for comparison is their production statistically. I've already proven just how much better the trio is to the duo. Until you have a valid argument against it, the trio easily wins.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Poe

[NomarFachix]

You can say that about any poster that actually takes the time to support their argument if you wish, as much as I can call any one-sentence post a brainless remark that isn't worth acknowledging.

 

Sorry if taking the time to actually create an argument and supporting it with facts and reason isn't supercool to you, but rather skimming through the other person's post and pinpointing a small part to mock. [expletive], that's a second sentence... better stop before this guy's head explodes from all the reading I'm making him do on a discussion board.

 

But I don't say it about any poster who takes the time to support an argument... right? Only the ones that support a failing argument with homer logic and a complete lack of objectivity. But then again, we're speaking of the guy who defended Dwayne Wade's WTC comments when even Wade didn't... You are an absolute homer in every sense of the word, and the Heat should design you a superhero costume that you can wear when you defend the team's honor on a message board.

 

You win. Homer Simpson. Your arguments are more farfetched than something on the Sci-Fi network. Keep it up!

[Poe]

But I don't say it about any poster who takes the time to support an argument... right? Only the ones that support a failing argument with homer logic and a complete lack of objectivity. But then again, we're speaking of the guy who defended Dwayne Wade's WTC comments when even Wade didn't... You are an absolute homer in every sense of the word, and the Heat should design you a superhero costume that you can wear when you defend the team's honor on a message board.

 

You win. Homer Simpson. Your arguments are more farfetched than something on the Sci-Fi network. Keep it up!

 

I'm done replying to you, but I'll say this much. I don't have a bias for anything based on my relationship with it or the person. I don't think that way and never have.

 

I've defended LeBron against a towel boy back when he was still a Cavalier. And if you knew me, I didn't like LeBron at the time because of his immaturity (which I still think he's immature... well, you'd know that if you read my posts). Everyone in the thread was angry against LeBron for mistreating a towel boy, and I was the only one who defended him, and pointed out that LeBron didn't actually see the towel boy. I'll search for the thread and edit this post with the link if I can find it. I remember RD locked the topic and probably deleted it too.

 

 

Edit: I can't find it anywhere. It's probably deleted. Oh well. But anyway, there are plenty of instances where I've defended players I hate, and opposed players I like... players on my favorite team. You may see me do it a few times this season. I look at things from a pure objective standpoint, not a biased manner. But of course, because the players I'm arguing for happen to be on my favorite team, my post is automatically disregarded for homerism.

 

 

And of course, since you never read my posts, I'll correct the misinterpretations again. I fully admitted that what Wade said was wrong. However, I was arguing against it being wrong for Wade to say it. Big difference, but nobody got it, and most people were essentially agreeing with me in their arguments without realizing it. But that's the past.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Poe

[Real Deal]

You just contradicted yourself. I gave you proof that the duo is better than the trio, because they created a dynasty. Your trio has yet to win a single pre-season game, a regular season game, or even a SCRIMMAGE.

 

Your way of looking at success is combining stats. Sorry, that's not how it works. The facts are right in front of you: Kobe and Shaq are proven champions, arguably the greatest duo of all-time. Your Heat trio? Nothing, nada, zip, zilch. I'm sure you can use your logic to "prove" that McGrady, Kevin Martin and Aaron Brooks would be a better trio than Kobe and Shaq (add up the averages!), but unfortunately, it's not all black and white.

 

There's a reason why you stand alone (or with one other fan, who likes the Heat), and everyone else, including some Heat fans and even non-Lakers fans, aren't slobbering over a trio that has done as much as me, Aaron and Justin on an NBA court together.

 

They've got great talent. There's no question about their talent they have, but, talent doesn't always win. The team that shows the best teamwork will win it."

 

Coming from the greatest coach of all-time. You should take notes.

[Poe]

You just contradicted yourself. I gave you proof that the duo is better than the trio, because they created a dynasty. Your trio has yet to win a single pre-season game, a regular season game, or even a SCRIMMAGE.

 

Your way of looking at success is combining stats. Sorry, that's not how it works. The facts are right in front of you: Kobe and Shaq are proven champions, arguably the greatest duo of all-time. Your Heat trio? Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.

 

Did you read my post? The Heat trio hasn't been put into practice, and because the duo has doesn't make them automatically better. For reference, look at my hypothetical about the bouncing basketballs.

 

 

I'm sure you can use your logic to "prove" that McGrady, Kevin Martin and Aaron Brooks would be a better trio than Kobe and Shaq (add up the averages!), but unfortunately, it's not all black and white.

 

Let's try it:

 

Shaq - 30.7

Kobe - 28.0

Average PER - 15.0 (replacement player)

 

vs

 

McGrady - 30.3

Martin - 21.0

Brooks - 16.0

 

 

Didn't work, LA duo wins by about 7.4.

 

There's a reason why you stand alone (or with one other fan, who likes the Heat), and everyone else, including some Heat fans and even non-Lakers fans, aren't slobbering over a trio that has done as much as me, Aaron and Justin on an NBA court together.

 

I'm usually a part of the minority opinion, as you've seen in the death penalty thread, and the WTC Wade comment thread, and others. I just happen to be a Heat fan arguing for a Heat trio. Continue to disregard me for homerism like the rest if you want.

 

 

They've got great talent. There's no question about their talent they have, but, talent doesn't always win. The team that shows the best teamwork will win it."

 

Coming from the greatest coach of all-time. You should take notes.

 

That's his and your best hope against them. Hold onto it as tight as you want.

[Real Deal]

Did you read my post? The Heat trio hasn't been put into practice, and because the duo has doesn't make them automatically better. For reference, look at my hypothetical about the bouncing basketballs.

Yeah, I read it. It also doesn't mean that the trio are worse, and because we are talking about a team sport, my argument trumps yours. My apologies.

 

Let's try it:

 

Shaq - 30.7

Kobe - 28.0

Average PER - 15.0 (replacement player)

 

vs

 

McGrady - 30.3

Martin - 21.0

Brooks - 16.0

 

 

Didn't work, LA duo wins by about 7.4.

Cool, be a smartass about it.

 

1) James: 31.19

2) Wade: 28.10

3) Durant: 26.23

4) Bosh: 17.7

5) Duncan: 24.79

6) Howard: 24.07

7) Paul: 23.74

8) Oden: 21.9

9) Nowitzki: 23.01

10) Gasol: 22.97

11) Stoudemire: 22.69

12) Ginobili: 22.54

13) Anthony: 22.29

14) Lee: 22.28

15) Bryant: 21.95

 

23) Williams: 20.62

30) Garnett: 19.51 (highest Celtic)

41) Rose: 18.69 (under Arenas and Beaubois, by the way)

 

Yeah, let's use PER stats to see how good players are. Very convincing.

 

Continue to disregard me for homerism like the rest if you want.

You mean like everyone but one other member? That's fine.

 

That's his and your best hope against them. Hold onto it as tight as you want.

LOL. We're all shaking like a chihuahua in the rain, dude.

 

Please believe me when I say that very few Lakers fans give a [expletive] about the Heat. We're more excited to see how they play, really. Boston is still the team to beat out East, and I'm rooting for them to get back to the Finals because I can't stand the green.

 

It'll be fun watching the Heat play, lots of scoring and athleticism, highlight plays, kind of like the 2004 Olympic team.

[Poe]

Yeah, let's use PER stats to see how good players are. Very convincing.

PER has it's flaws since there are plenty of things players do on the basketball court that aren't given a statistic (like screens, floor spacing, correct positioning, basketball IQ, drawing doubles, shot difficulty, anything off the ball, etc), though putting players with similar minutes together, it usually has a fairly correct ordering.

 

It's the best statistical measurement I know of to compare players directly with their all around games. I was showing a comparison that doesn't involve bias, which I hope you understood that I made that clear from the beginning.

 

 

Please believe me when I say that very few Lakers fans give a [expletive] about the Heat. We're more excited to see how they play, really. Boston is still the team to beat out East, and I'm rooting for them to get back to the Finals because I can't stand the green.

 

Glad you are rooting for a worse team. I should do the same and hope the Mavericks make it back... your point?

 

 

It'll be fun watching the Heat play, lots of scoring and athleticism, highlight plays, kind of like the 2004 Olympic team.

 

That's much different. While you are meshing stars together without any real chemistry and collective gameplan, the Heat have their role players to do the little things and are in a defensively disciplined system.

 

 

But again, that teamwork thing is the only hope you can hold onto as an opposing fan. Even though the trio all took paycuts to play with one another and are willing to make the sacrifices... well, I guess there's always a sudden injury that can hold things back, or maybe LeBron can't resist the temptation to dance despite Spo's pole up his [expletive] and causes chemistry to collapse, or maybe a crazy mob of Cavs fans kidnap LeBron.. you never know!

 

 

 

All jokes aside, this is starting to pull away from this being strictly about Kobe and Shaq versus LeBron, Wade, and Bosh. This.. debate... is over.

[His Greatness]

The stacked talent and statistical aggregation is rather compelling, but realistically, it will never override the kind of balance that (established) duo had.

[EastCoastNiner]

So, have any opinions changed......................?

 

I wanted to bump this after the Heat lose in the first or second round, but I wasn't waiting until then.

[Flash]

Heat are in year 1. So until they prove something its obviously still Kobe and Shaq.

[Macasero]

Well if the 3 Heat learn how to balance their offense and Bosh decides to man up and play some tenacious D. A prime Shaq and a prime Kobe is an easy pick.

[andre smoothwhite]

Shaq and KOBE all day long. The thrice dont gotta chance in this one. KOBE and SHAQ would destroy anyone.

[EastCoastNiner]

I've been waiting to bump this again.....

[Newman]

One year dude. Shaq and Kobe had 3 years together before they won their first championship.

 

Although I still do believe Shaq and Kobe are better.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Newman