LeBron says Heat 'will let our game do the talking'

[Poe]

I don't think 82games is accurate on a lot of things. They can give you some interesting stats, but I wouldn't base too much off of them. According to them, Dorell Wright has never played point guard. I know that's wrong from watching the games.

 

 

Now, on who should take the last shot, I don't know if it should be LeBron every time. I think it should be more based on match ups and/or who is playing well that game.

 

 

Like against the Lakers, I'd prefer if LeBron went at Artest than see Wade go at Kobe. Or against the Celtics, I'd rather see Wade 1 on 1 against Allen than LeBron 1 on 1 against Pierce. Both can score very well against any matchup, but I'm sure Wade is more likely to against Allen than LeBron against Pierce, and LeBron against Artest is better than Wade against Kobe.

 

 

And as for defensive stops, it depends on the matchup. If it's a smaller player like Chris Paul or Gilbert Arenas, I'd prefer Wade on that matchup. If it's a bigger perimeter player like Danny Granger or Carmelo Anthony, I'd prefer LeBron.

[Nitro]

I don't think 82games is accurate on a lot of things. They can give you some interesting stats, but I wouldn't base too much off of them. According to them, Dorell Wright has never played point guard. I know that's wrong from watching the games.

 

Being primary playmaker doesn't necessarily make you a PG, at least on the stat sheet. For example Kobe is the primary playmaker on the Lakers, and T-Mac was on the 05-08 Rockets (to counter the whole "but Kobe plays in the triangle" arguement), but I'm sure neither of them TECHNICALLY played any minutes at PG.

 

Regardless, it don't matter. LeBron obliterated his primary competition (Kobe/Wade) the majority of the last 3 years in clutch stats...as in them not even being close. Kobe probably passed LeBron on the game-winning shot list last year, though. But the point being is that overall LeBron has been arguably the best clutch player in the entire league the last 3 seasons, so Miami fans don't have to worry about Cleveland's Finest's doomsday scenarios.

 

Now, on who should take the last shot, I don't know if it should be LeBron every time. I think it should be more based on match ups and/or who is playing well that game.

 

No one takes the last shot every single time, and it will certainly be situational. They'd be stupid to give it to either Wade or LeBron every single time for the last shot.

[Poe]

Being primary playmaker doesn't necessarily make you a PG, at least on the stat sheet. For example Kobe is the primary playmaker on the Lakers, and T-Mac was on the 05-08 Rockets (to counter the whole "but Kobe plays in the triangle" arguement), but I'm sure neither of them TECHNICALLY played any minutes at PG.

 

Guarding the opposing PG (Fisher, Evens, Billups, Davis, etc) and setting up the offense (dribbling up the court each possession and call the play) = playing point guard.

 

 

And that reminds me, your probably bringing up Kobe because RD did in another thread. Chalmers doesn't play much point guard (offensively at least). He'll defend the opposing PG when Wade is on the court, but he usually sets up at the wing while Wade handles the ball. When he's playing with Arroyo (which became more and more often as the season progressed), the Heat often go into a zone on defense, and the amount of times he sets up the offense is even more rare. He's a point guard on defense and a 2 guard on offense, because his ball handling and decision making is poor.

 

Iverson is the same way as far as positioning goes. 2 on offense, 1 on defense. Though his were for different reasons.

 

 

But technically speaking, yes, Chalmers is a point guard, and so was Wright in certain games.

 

 

so Miami fans don't have to worry about Cleveland's Finest's doomsday scenarios.

 

Gotcha. I'm not worried, either.

 

 

No one takes the last shot every single time, and it will certainly be situational. They'd be stupid to give it to either Wade or LeBron every single time for the last shot.

 

All I'm saying is if Spo is to draw up an inbounds play for a particular player for the last shot, it would be for the player with the more favorable matchup.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Poe

[Nitro]

Guarding the opposing PG (Fisher, Evens, Billups, Davis, etc) and setting up the offense (dribbling up the court each possession and call the play) = playing point guard.

 

To the stat keeper, not always, but I know where you're coming from. Has nothing to do with the clutch stats, though, and even if the stats aren't perfect LeBron exceeds what his peers do in those situations by such a margin that it really isn't even an arguement.

 

And that reminds me, your probably bringing up Kobe because RD did in another thread.

 

Nope lol. Brought up Kobe because he was just an example of a SG essentially playing PG on offense and on rare occasion defense.

[Poe]

To the stat keeper, not always, but I know where you're coming from. Has nothing to do with the clutch stats, though, and even if the stats aren't perfect LeBron exceeds what his peers do in those situations by such a margin that it really isn't even an arguement.

 

I was just making an example of some things that aren't entirely accurate.

 

And stats never tell the whole story anyway (call me a hypocrite if you want, lol). LeBron exceeding other players in clutch stats could simply mean he takes more shots in crunch time than other players do, for example. While Kobe has a good second option in Gasol to rely on in crunch time, LeBron is the only reliable shot creator on his team.

 

 

 

 

Nope lol. Brought up Kobe because he was just an example of a SG essentially playing PG on offense and on rare occasion defense.

 

 

Odd because RD made the exact same example:

 

Chalmers ate up 45% of the team's minutes at point last year. That's 22 minutes of the 24-25 he averaged. Derek Fisher doesn't run the offense, either, but that doesn't mean he's not a point guard. When Spo is drawing up plays on offense, Chalmers is the one, Wade is the two. A "2 Double" would be a play drawn for Wade to score (just making a play up, of course).

 

 

But anyway, that's getting offtopic.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Poe

[Nitro]

I was just making an example of some things that aren't entirely accurate.

 

And stats never tell the whole story anyway (call me a hypocrite if you want, lol). LeBron exceeding other players in clutch stats could simply mean he takes more shots in crunch time than other players do, for example. While Kobe has a good second option in Gasol to rely on in crunch time, LeBron is the only reliable shot creator on his team.

 

That explains points, +/- and potentially assists. Doesn't explain FG% (LeBron with the 4% advantage), rebounds (15.9 to 7.3, advantage LeBron), blocks/assists (3.2/3.2 to 0.0/1.8, advantage LeBron), etc...

 

And for the record, LeBron had a 15pt advantage over Kobe, 4.7ast advantage over Kobe, and a whopping 30pt advantage in +/- over Kobe.

 

Odd because RD made the exact same example:

 

Despite how much we argue, we do think alike

[Poe]

That explains points, +/- and potentially assists. Doesn't explain FG% (LeBron with the 4% advantage), rebounds (15.9 to 7.3, advantage LeBron), blocks/assists (3.2/3.2 to 0.0/1.8, advantage LeBron), etc...

 

And for the record, LeBron had a 15pt advantage over Kobe, 4.7ast advantage over Kobe, and a whopping 30pt advantage in +/- over Kobe.

 

+/- is based on teamplay more than it is based on the play of an individual.

 

And LeBron has a higher FG%, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals in total numbers in comparison to Kobe anyway, so of course he'll average more in the end portion of a game as well. The overall numbers don't necessarily make him a better overall player, or else Jordan wouldn't say Kobe is better, which would mean that these clutch numbers don't necessarily make him a better clutch player.

[Nitro]

+/- is based on teamplay more than it is based on the play of an individual.

 

And LeBron has a higher FG%, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals in total numbers in comparison to Kobe anyway, so of course he'll average more in the end portion of a game as well. The overall numbers don't necessarily make him a better overall player, or else Jordan wouldn't say Kobe is better, which would mean that these clutch numbers don't necessarily make him a better clutch player.

 

Never said LeBron was a better clutch player. Said he had better clutch stats, and he can certainly be argued as a better clutch player. At the very least he is in the same discussion.

 

And I'm sorry, but LeBron doubling and tripling Kobe in many of those categories in the clutch is a BIG difference, regardless of what they produce in the regular season.

[Real Deal]

I said what I did about Chalmers, Fisher and Bryant because it's true as far as a coach's standpoint goes.

 

When someone says the words "point guard" or "one" and they are relating it to who's on the court, I think of plays drawn up.

 

Basically, there were a lot of times where LeBron was said to be playing the point in Cleveland last season, but he was never actually the point guard. Brown actually stuck him at the four when he ran three-guard lineups (which wasn't too often, but it happened), and LeBron was considered a four on plays ran during that time.

 

When I played ball, I was always considered a two or three, even though I brought the ball up many times. In leagues, I had coaches call out plays that had me bring the ball up, asking the two-guard to facilitate. Never, ever called me the one, no matter the role I had, because there was a real point guard (or combo guard) always out there on the court with me, even if they weren't creating for others at that time.

 

In Wright's case, Chalmers, Arroyo or Alston was always out on the court when he was in the game, or Wade (who is a combo guard). When Spo drew up plays, I can say with 100% certainty that he called Wright a two or three. A "1-4 Pinball" would not initially involve Wright scoring the ball, even if he's bringing it up court. The point (the one) would take the ball at the top of the key, receiving it from Wright, and the two and three would shoot to the corners, and the one takes his man off the dribble and either looks to draw a foul, or dish it off to a big (usually the power forward). Wright would be the two-guard, or small forward, awaiting the shot.

 

Of course, it works best having two shooters on the court, but it's just a random play that popped into my head.

[Real Deal]

Regarding the clutch stats, they don't mean much to me. LeBron has the higher FG%, we all know that, and he didn't have much help in the fourth quarters...right? There was a season where Bryant averaged 10+ PPG in fourth quarters alone, and that was around the time he didn't have Shaq or Gasol, if I recall correctly, and nobody had accomplished that since Wilt or Jordan.

 

But, according to 82games' clutch stats, sorting +/- stats, you'll find that Mo Williams is on top of everyone.

 

In fact, five of the first six players are from Cleveland, +/- stat leaders. Williams, James, Parker, West and Varejao, in that order.

 

You'll also find that, among non-bigs, Delonte West has the highest FG%, at 66.7%.

 

It really doesn't mean much to me, in the end. Down two, five seconds to go, a prime Scottie Pippen defending my best forward/guard...who takes the final shot? Bryant, and nobody else crosses my mind unless their name is Michael Jordan (and I take Bryant over Jordan as well).

[Poe]

In Wright's case, Chalmers, Arroyo or Alston was always out on the court when he was in the game, or Wade (who is a combo guard). When Spo drew up plays, I can say with 100% certainty that he called Wright a two or three. A "1-4 Pinball" would not initially involve Wright scoring the ball, even if he's bringing it up court. The point (the one) would take the ball at the top of the key, receiving it from Wright, and the two and three would shoot to the corners, and the one takes his man off the dribble and either looks to draw a foul, or dish it off to a big (usually the power forward). Wright would be the two-guard, or small forward, awaiting the shot.

 

Of course, it works best having two shooters on the court, but it's just a random play that popped into my head.

 

Wright - Wade - Richardson - Beasley - Anthony is a lineup sometimes used from Spoelstra when the opposing team had a bigger guard like Baron Davis or Tyreke Evens. I remember specifically a play against the Kings where Wright brought the ball up the court, fed it to Richardson at the wing, who fed Wade the ball in the post. Wright ran around some screens that got him open at the top of the key for a midrange jumper.

 

There were other times that game where Wright brought the ball up the court and immediately went to a pick and pop with Haslem.

 

In that game, along with bringing the ball up and calling the plays, he was defending the opposing PG, who was Tyreke when Udrih was on the bench.

 

There were games where Wright wasn't playing point guard but was playing the 3 and sometimes was in a point forward role with Wade/Cook and Arroyo/Chalmers on the floor. These games he was not the point guard.

 

 

But anyway, I think positions are a bit overstated in basketball. For the most part, they are just labels. Often times, players can be overlooked because of their inability to fit into a particular position, even if they are high level basketball players. The important part is to have players that can handle the ball, players that can score, rebound, and defend the opposition, regardless of what positions are filled.

[Cleveland's Finest]

LeBron was not that good last post season. When you think of a leader you think of a guy who won't give up until the very end. He gave up in the final minutes of Game 6. Never seen something like that from a team.

 

Another thing you rarely see is a guy rip his jersey off after the game and throw it for all the cameras to record. Then he talks about "him and his team" merely a few minutes later in the post game conference. You'd think his team meant the Cavs, but no, he's already referring to the free agency. As if getting eliminated didn't frustrate him. Just a shrug of the shoulders and then he follows it up with his excitement for the offseason. And if you think he's clutch and a leader, check Game 5 of the Boston series. Watch it all and if you never knew how LBJ was you'd think he was some average starter and wander what the hype was for.

 

Cleveland competed with Orlando two years ago, and Boston three years ago, so don't tell me it was the talent as the excuse for last year, because they were always close in games, but never got blown out like that. He quit on us. If you don't believe it, then at least agree that he underperformed. He was the MVP. MVPs don't let their team lose by 30 at home. MVPs don't bring up elbow injuries. MVPs don't quit on their team. MVPs shouldn't need Dwayne Wade to win a title.

 

I haven't ripped a Heat fan at all. This post gives reasons as to why I believe LeBron isn't clutch and a is a poor leader, and therefore I believe Wade will have to be the leader and at the same time cater to LeBron's needs.

 

This isn't an unfair comment, so I see no reason for anyone to dismiss it and just say "He's still sad about his hero leaving Cleveland."

Edited September 29, 2010 by Cleveland's Finest

[Check my Stats]

He doesn't need Wade to win a title, he could probably have won a few titles if he joined the Bulls, or maybe even in New York with Amare, but in Miami, he can win so many more (potentially).

 

He probably maybe even could have won a single title, MAYBE even two if he trapped himself in Cleveland for 6 years.... he has made it clear, he isn't interested in one championship, or two, or three, or four (see what I did there).

Edited September 29, 2010 by travesy3

[Poe]

He's also the only reason Cleveland was there to begin with.

[Cleveland's Finest]

You guys are such hypocrites. Complaining about how I'm totally "just laying it on you" yet you guys fire this back.

[Poe]

You have way more to thank for LeBron than to hate about him. He's done a lot for Cleveland. More than any team could have asked for out of a number one overall pick.

 

Imagine if you got a Kwame Brown instead. Would you be talking about him as if he were a horrible team leader in the playoffs, and hating his guts for leaving?

Edited September 29, 2010 by Poe

[Cleveland's Finest]

You said Kwame Brown. Ok let's say we got Greg Oden like the Trail Blazers. Do you see Portland fans hating on him?

 

So I don't agree that if we got a bad player it'd matter.

 

Every chance LeBron had, he discredited the city, but people didn't mind because we truly believed in the end he was in our corner. We still refused to believe it when he showed signs of being arrogant, because we knew he was one of us. But then when the playoffs ended, people were sort of leaning, and if he left it'd be bad, but not as bad as how he actually left us.

 

We let him treat us however he wanted. We put up with all of the extra crap and in the end he put the dagger in us. He said he left a foundation in Cleveland. Really? Are we really better off now than we were when we drafted him? And if you believe he orchestrated this, he's the reason we didn't get Ray Allen or Michael Redd 4 years ago, he wanted Shaq, he wanted Jamison, he wanted his posse to get a ride on all team flights. We stood for all of it. But to just shrug his dismissal off like it was no big deal would be absurd. This has been adding up and the final blow made it more harsh. LeBron threw all the punches and was always in control.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Cleveland's Finest

[Poe]

So I don't agree that if we got a bad player it'd matter.

 

It would have definitely mattered. The Cavs wouldn't have had all those 60-win seasons.

[Nitro]

LeBron was not that good last post season. When you think of a leader you think of a guy who won't give up until the very end. He gave up in the final minutes of Game 6. Never seen something like that from a team.

 

He gave up after they were down double digits and he already put up a monster triple double and shutdown Paul Pierce.

 

You also fail to mention what his teammates, who you always glorify did. His 2nd option, Antawn Jamison? 5 points (2-10 shooting), 5 rebounds, 0 assists. Letting a broken down KG go off for 22/13/3 (on 11-19 shooting). Delonte West? 3 points (0-2 shooting), 0 assists, 3 turnovers. Big Z? 2 points and 0 rebounds in 14 minutes. Besides LeBron, Mo was the only one to show up for that game, and even he was outplayed by his counterpart (Rondo) and disappeared in the 2nd half.

 

LeBron's Game 6 outplayed Kobe's Game 7 in the Finals in virtually every facet, but the difference was Kobe had the teammates to pick up the slack for once. That is what makes a championship team, and it is how you can beat a team like the Celtics. LeBron didn't have that last year, didn't have it in 2009 against the Magic, 2008 against the Celtics or 2007 against the Spurs.

 

Another thing you rarely see is a guy rip his jersey off after the game and throw it for all the cameras to record.

 

That's pretty common.

 

And if you think he's clutch and a leader, check Game 5 of the Boston series. Watch it all and if you never knew how LBJ was you'd think he was some average starter and wander what the hype was for.

 

1 game in a 7 year career. His accumulative play for his career in both the regular and post-season, overall and in clutch situations, VASTLY outweighs one game. Both my eyes and the stats verify that. Back around 2005-2006 I was one of LBJ's biggest haters just because he never showed up in the clutch (and he couldn't shoot or defend well). He has become arguably the best clutch player in the entire league, and easily one of the most dependable post-season performers.

 

Cleveland competed with Orlando two years ago, and Boston three years ago, so don't tell me it was the talent as the excuse for last year, because they were always close in games, but never got blown out like that.

 

Cleveland competed with Orlando because LeBron averaged 38/8/8 for the series, and Cleveland almost beat Boston in 2008 because LeBron went nuts after the first 2 games in Boston...both were top 5 defenses. Expecting LeBron to be superman EVERY SINGLE GAME is unrealistic as its something neither a guy like Jordan or Kobe could do. At some point against elite teams you need your teammates to pick you up.

[NomarFachix]

This thread needs to go away forever.

[Flash]

This thread needs to go away forever.

 

This. This argument is getting tired, fast.