What Are "Superstars"?

[Nitro]

True, except you made a mistake bringing up what Williams did against Denver, because as you noted earlier, Roy dominated the Rockets, who also had Yao Ming (who you consider a superstar), Shane Battier and Ron Artest (two of the best perimeter defenders in the league at that time), Aaron Brooks, Luis Scola and Carl Landry. Oden racked up 27 fouls in those six games, wasn't even pulling down boards, so I don't consider him much of an asset in that series. Outlaw was absolute trash...and it's not like those two were making up for it with their defense, either. Even Fernandez was bad on the offensive end, and we know he doesn't play defense.

 

Saying Roy dominated the Rockets is a bit of an overstatement. He scored well, but he averaged less than half his season average in assists, didn't grab as many boards as he did in the regular season, and it wasn't like he was making a big defensive impact. I hate to use McGrady again, but in a similar situation the year before he averaged 27/7/7 against the Jazz in a 6 game loss. That's more what I consider a dominant playoff series (and I probably wouldn't consider T-Mac a superstar at that point). And if we look at Williams, he's had to face elite defenses 6 of his 8 career playoff series' (Lakers 3x, Rockets 2x, SA 1x), and has career post-season averages of 21PPG, 10APG, 4RPG and 46%FG, 40%3. He scores at a similar efficiency and only slightly less volume than Roy, but is a top 3 playmaker in the game. That is where they are different individually.

 

If Roy can raise his game to the level Williams has in the post-season and win some games (or produce dominant stats and his team fall short), then I'd be more inclined to label him a superstar. But so far we have only 1 series to really analyze, and IMO what he does in the regular season does not warrant putting him in that superstar tier.

[Nitro]

But as a first option currently, he got bounced in the first round. When you take away his shot or when he's having an off game, he's pretty ineffective if you ask me. Maybe that's more of a testament to his playing style, but nonetheless, he doesn't do much.

 

When he's having an off-game he offers more than Durant or Melo, yet you put those guys in your superstar group. When he's having an off-night he rebounds well at the PF position and attracts double teams, and he's an underrated passer. And how often does Dirk really have an off-game? He's very, very efficient considering his play style, and he gets to the line well.

 

And I'm not going to sit here and underplay his performance in the playoffs, he played well and his teammates didn't show up, but regardless we're acting as if he's consistently getting far in the playoffs. Just look at the Mavs the past few years in the playoffs:

 

2010: First round (4-2)

2009: Second round (4-1)

2008: First round (4-1)

2007: First round (4-2)

2006: Finals (4-2)- Which I have openly said before that the Mavs got robbed big time and should have won the series, but that's a whole different debate.

 

To put it simply, he has been to the WCF twice, and while he has had the consistency in the regular season, it hasn't exactly translated well in May/June.

 

In the last 3 years he's averaged 27/10/3 on 52% shooting in the post-season. He's proven that he could get deep, as in Finals deep, into the post-season as the clear-cut #1 option. If you look at the 2006 run, he DOMINATED Pau and the Grizzlies, dominated the Spurs and came up HUGE in that game 7, dominated Marion and the Suns, and then came up short in the Finals.

 

I just don't see how someone with his resume and stats can't be considered in the same class as guys like Melo and Durant, who have in comparison done nothing in the post-season, and who put up similar production.

[Real Deal]

he averaged 27/7/7 against the Jazz in a 6 game loss. That's more what I consider a dominant playoff series (and I probably wouldn't consider T-Mac a superstar at that point)

Probably? You can't ever consider him a superstar, because he never got out of the first round, unless I'm missing something here. I just remember you saying how McGrady was in the same boat as Kobe, at one point...and this is a Kobe that missed the playoffs in 2005 and had first-round exits in 2006 and 2007.

 

If Roy can raise his game to the level Williams has in the post-season and win some games (or produce dominant stats and his team fall short), then I'd be more inclined to label him a superstar.

In his last two seasons, despite injuries, he has led his team to a couple of 50+ win seasons. How is Durant a superstar, if he has one 50-win season and a first-round exit, and poor stats in that first round against none other than Ron Artest, the same guy Roy lit up?

[Nitro]

Probably? You can't ever consider him a superstar, because he never got out of the first round, unless I'm missing something here. I just remember you saying how McGrady was in the same boat as Kobe, at one point...and this is a Kobe that missed the playoffs in 2005 and had first-round exits in 2006 and 2007.

 

In his last two seasons, despite injuries, he has led his team to a couple of 50+ win seasons. How is Durant a superstar, if he has one 50-win season and a first-round exit, and poor stats in that first round against none other than Ron Artest, the same guy Roy lit up?

 

Read what I said about Roy. In parantheses I said if Roy can win some games in the playoffs, or dominate and his team still lose. That's what happened with T-Mac. At one point T-Mac was arguably a top 5 player capable of scoring in a way Roy NEVER has, and creating for his teammates like Roy never has. T-Mac's career post-season averages, even though he never made it past the first round, are among the best EVER (29/7/6 career average, 4 series of over 30PPG, 4 over 6.5APG, 6 with over 6RPG). I wouldn't consider T-Mac a superstar back in 2007-2008, but he still showed those dominant qualities a lot more often than Roy did last year (see my posts in the Roy vs Durant topic for examples), and also proved it multiple times in the post-season.

 

Again, it'd be one thing if Roy was a dominant regular season performer like Durant or even Melo to make his minimal post-season experience expendable, but he's not. He doesn't have dominant scoring ability like Kobe/Bron/Wade/Melo/Durant/Dirk, 'nor does he dominate with his playmaking like Paul/Nash/Williams or with his defense like Dwight (and KG if he keeps it up). He does everything very well, but nothing in a dominant manner. And that'd be fine in the regular season if he was a dominant player in the post-season, but he's only played in 1 series healthy, so the jury is still out.

[Make It Naaaashty]

Who's Varejo?

You seriously don't know who Anderson Varejao is, or are you confused due to the spelling?

[Real Deal]

Read what I said about Roy. In parantheses I said if Roy can win some games in the playoffs, or dominate and his team still lose. That's what happened with T-Mac. At one point T-Mac was arguably a top 5 player capable of scoring in a way Roy NEVER has, and creating for his teammates like Roy never has. T-Mac's career post-season averages, even though he never made it past the first round, are among the best EVER (29/7/6 career average, 4 series of over 30PPG, 4 over 6.5APG, 6 with over 6RPG). I wouldn't consider T-Mac a superstar back in 2007-2008, but he still showed those dominant qualities a lot more often than Roy did last year (see my posts in the Roy vs Durant topic for examples), and also proved it multiple times in the post-season.

 

Again, it'd be one thing if Roy was a dominant regular season performer like Durant or even Melo to make his minimal post-season experience expendable, but he's not. He doesn't have dominant scoring ability like Kobe/Bron/Wade/Melo/Durant/Dirk, 'nor does he dominate with his playmaking like Paul/Nash/Williams or with his defense like Dwight (and KG if he keeps it up). He does everything very well, but nothing in a dominant manner. And that'd be fine in the regular season if he was a dominant player in the post-season, but he's only played in 1 series healthy, so the jury is still out.

My problem is that you're dismissing what he does defensively, and you're asking him to score 30 a game or throw 10 assists. Yet, you consider Howard a superstar.

 

I just don't agree with superstars being incredibly bad on the defensive end. Nash is. Dirk is probably an underrated defender because people say he's just as bad as Nash, but he's still a poor defender.

 

The consensus was out about Durant being a 30 PPG scorer that rebounded well, and did everything else average or poor...no defense, no passing or playmaking ability...yet, he's an MVP candidate because his team won 50 games?

 

I don't buy that. Durant is a superstar, though, and Roy is a better overall player. Roy should be considered a superstar. Give him a Gasol, and he's in the WCF, and people start calling him a superstar (for some reason).

 

23 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, 48% FG and 38% 3PT, 1.9 TO and only 1.6 PF, 54 wins, with 27/5/3 on 46% FG against Artest and Battier in the playoffs...if that's not a superstar's numbers, I don't know what is. Everyone makes a big deal about what players do against great defensive teams in the postseason, and Houston was 3rd or 4th ranked, defensively, with a healthy Yao as well (and Mutombo off the bench). Roy should've been shut down, but he wasn't.

 

A healthy Roy beats the Suns in the first round last April, and I doubt we'd be talking about this right now...and if that's what it would take to change your opinion on him, well, I just don't get it, because his 2008-09 season should've already done it.

[Nitro]

My problem is that you're dismissing what he does defensively, and you're asking him to score 30 a game or throw 10 assists. Yet, you consider Howard a superstar.

 

How am I dismissing what he does defensively? He's an average defender, but that's it. He is by no means a great defensive player. Last season he had the 14th best Drtg on his team, worse than Rudy and Outlaw. He let up 54%EFG to his counterpart at the SG position, and 50%EFG at the SF position.

 

And Howard is a dominant defensive player, dominant rebounder, and in his best scoring season he averaged <2PPG less than Roy's best....on 60% shooting. He's led a team to the Finals and ECF.

 

I don't buy that. Durant is a superstar, though, and Roy is a better overall player. Roy should be considered a superstar.

 

He's more SKILLED. He's also more skilled than Dwyane Wade. Does not mean he's a better player as the #1 option on an NBA team.

 

23 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, 48% FG and 38% 3PT, 1.9 TO and only 1.6 PF, 54 wins.

 

First off, Joe Johnson's best season was 25/4/4 on 47% shooting, 38% from 3, with 3 TO's. So if you think those numbers are that eye popping to me, you're wrong. Secondly, if you want to compare Roy to my superstar group,look at their best seasons (areas bolded are when that average was the league best)...

 

Nash- 18.6 PPG, 11.6 APG, 3.5 RPG, 53.2% FG, 45.5% 3PT, 3.8 TO

 

Kobe- 35.4 PPG, 4.5 APG, 5.3 RPG, 45.0% FG, 34.7% 3PT, 3.1 TO

 

LeBron- 29.7 PPG, 8.6 APG, 7.3 RPG, 50.3% FG, 33.3% 3PT, 3.4 TO

 

Dirk- 26.6 PPG, 2.8 APG, 9.0 RPG, 48.0% FG, 40.6% 3PT, 1.9 TO

 

Dwight- 20.7 PPG, 1.3 APG, 14.2 RPG, 59.9% FG, 3.0 TO

 

Paul- 22.8 PPG, 11.0 APG, 5.5 RPG, 50.3%FG, 36.4% 3PT, 3.0 TO

 

Deron- 18.7 PPG, 10.5 APG, 4.0 RPG, 46.9% FG, 37.1% 3PT, 3.3 TO

 

Wade- 30.2 PPG, 7.5 APG, 5.0 RPG, 49.1% FG, 31.7% 3PT, 3.4 TO

 

Melo- 28.9 PPG, 3.8 APG, 6.0 RPG, 47.6% FG, 26.8% 3PT, 3.0 TO

 

Durant- 30.1 PPG, 2.8 APG, 7.6 RPG, 47.6% FG, 36.5% 3PT, 3.3 TO

 

 

6 of those 10 players led the league in their strongest area in their best seasons, and one of them (LeBron) did in another season. I don't think Roy has ever come within 7pts or 5 assists of leading the league, and that's a HUGE difference when comparing him to those players. He just isn't dominant in any area, therefor I just can't call him a superstar.

[Real Deal]

How am I dismissing what he does defensively? He's an average defender, but that's it. He is by no means a great defensive player. Last season he had the 14th best Drtg on his team, worse than Rudy and Outlaw. He let up 54%EFG to his counterpart at the SG position, and 50%EFG at the SF position.

LeBron James let up 50% EFG to his counterpart at the SF position.

 

Ron Artest let up 49% EFG allowed.

 

Gerald Wallace? 52% EFG allowed.

 

Steve Nash? 47% EFG allowed...lol.

 

Durant? 48% EFG allowed (better than Artest, LeBron and Wallace).

 

You really want to use those stats? They are pretty irrelevant...good way to tell how well a player's five-man unit defends on the court, because it doesn't account for all the times players are screened off their man, or how many times they don't defend their position (but we've been over this before).

 

And I never said Roy was having MVP seasons. I'm not interested in comparing his stats to Bryant's 35 PPG season. My entire point is, a player that is more complete than another should be considered a superstar if the other (Durant) is considered an MVP candidate, with one 50-win season and a first-round playoff loss where he played like utter crap. I gave you that, and you had the excuse for it, and completely turned the discussion into, "Does Brandon Roy average 30 or throw 10 assists?" Suddenly, Roy is required to do that, or have a more dominating performance than 27/5/3 against those Rockets in the playoffs.

 

Your mind is made up...that's your criteria. Roy has won 50 games (twice), put up an impressive performance against two dominating defenders at once, plays better defense than you give him credit for, puts up starting all-star statistics with efficiency (which is what you're always praising), and has claims from both Bryant and Artest that he's the toughest player to play against in the league. He would average 25+ if he wanted the ball in his hands at all times (not like he can't take over games and drop 40-50 points). Stick a scoring point guard in that starting role (instead of Miller and Blake), and Roy starts producing those scoring numbers.

 

You say Dirk is a superstar because he has had multiple 50-win seasons and went to the Finals? Well, today, Karl Malone is a superstar for the same reason. Last season, I didn't see Dirk leading the league in scoring (two years ago, he was putting up around 23 PPG, actually), and I'm pretty sure he gave a similar performance to Roy's in the playoffs.

 

Your criteria, I guess.

[N.1.A.K.]

to make it simple... Superstars are players that the average person knows.

 

not trying to be mean... but ask someone, say your mother, if they know what team Brandon Roy or Derrick Rose plays for... or even if they who he is... then ask her about Kobe and LBJ...Dwight..

 

IMO thats a quick way to define a superstar...

 

EDIT: Quick exceptions are Durant and Paul

Edited October 28, 2010 by N.1.A.K.

[Sun Tzu]

Superstars are starting all-stars (deserving starting all-stars) that can lead a legitimate team to 50+ wins OR produce off-the-chart numbers (because I wouldn't leave out guys like Kobe, who were averaging 35 points on a 42-45 win team).

 

Players that you can build around and possibly win a championship with, or at least contend with.

 

Superstars (Kobe)

All-Stars (Gasol)

Borderline All-Stars (Odom)

Stars (Artest, Bynum)

Role players (Fisher, Blake)

 

Yes I agree with that definition of a superstar. The players I consider to be superstars are

 

Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony and Dwight Howard.

I would consider guys like Rajon Rondo, Brandon Roy, Steve Nash, Amar'e Stoudemire, Chris Bosh, Dirk Nowitzki, Danny Granger etc. border-line superstars or all-stars.

[moeroadkill]

to make it simple... Superstars are players that the average person knows.

 

not trying to be mean... but ask someone, say your mother, if they know what team Brandon Roy or Derrick Rose plays for... or even if they who he is... then ask her about Kobe and LBJ...Dwight..

 

IMO thats a quick way to define a superstar...

 

no thats what i call media

[N.1.A.K.]

no thats what i call media

 

doesnt media help create a superstar?

[moeroadkill]

doesnt media help create a superstar?

 

well yes and no to a "common fan" i guess it will help them get some recognition but to basketball fans your play on the court will determine whether your a superstar or not , it puts their name in the spot light but not necessarily for all the right reasons. eg gilbert arenas

Edited October 28, 2010 by MoeRoadKill

[N.1.A.K.]

well yes and no to a "common fan" i guess it will help them get some recognition but to basketball fans your play on the court will determine whether your a superstar or not , it puts their name in the spot light but not necessarily for all the right reasons. eg gilbert arenas

 

true... but id argue Gilbert Arenas was a superstar before his injuries and legal issues

 

but i do see your main point.

Edited October 28, 2010 by N.1.A.K.

[N.1.A.K.]

but ya, take a look at the media and you can find the superstars as well... kuz the media will include guys like Paul and Durant.. two guys that a person who doesnt follow the NBA might not know...

 

Kobe

LBJ

Durant

Paul

Dwight

Wade

Carmelo

 

id say those guys are in the upper echelon of superstardom.

 

my girlfriend was also able to give me these quotes:

 

" the one guy from the Celtics who keeps getting hurt" LMAO! Pierce....

 

" Khloe's husband... Lamar..." ...Odom

 

" the guy who is tall on the Spurs and Eva Longoria's husband" Duncan... Parker

 

"Stevie Nash"

 

"old player on the Mavs" Kidd...

 

"Yao"

 

" the guy who signed with the Knicks"

 

i know i left off some studs like Dirk, Deron Gasol and Amare... but my GF was able to cover Amare between us

[Multi-Billionaire]

Superstars are in my definition guys who fit these two criteria (BOTH CRITERIA MUST BE SATISFIED FOR A PLAYER TO BE CONSIDERED A SUPERSTAR, MULTI-BILLIONAIRE STYLE):

1.) make their team contend night in and night out and be a legitimate playoffs team without whom their teams would be a surefire lottery team.

... AND...

2.) through at least one dominant contribution in the 5 available statistics: scoring, rebounding, assist, steals, blocked shots. One of these 5 statistics has to be dominant that it absolutely impacts the game... e.g. Kobe's 35 ppg, Dennis Rodman's 17 rpg, Magic's 11apg, Iverson's 3 spg, Hakeem's 4 bpg.

 

 

But my definition here excludes Dennis Rodman, because if you had taken him out of the 72 win Bulls team, the Bulls would still have been at least a legitimate playoffs team.

[The Lone Granger]

I actually completely forgot about Brandon Roy on this list, but it's a very good debate. I have to agree with ABL on this one, I'll have to wait to see how he plays throughout this season to place him or not place him on my list. If he keeps playing the way he did last night, then he'll be on it. Definitely a star at least.

[Nitro]

LeBron James let up 50% EFG to his counterpart at the SF position.

 

Ron Artest let up 49% EFG allowed.

 

Gerald Wallace? 52% EFG allowed.

 

Steve Nash? 47% EFG allowed...lol.

 

Durant? 48% EFG allowed (better than Artest, LeBron and Wallace).

 

You really want to use those stats? They are pretty irrelevant...good way to tell how well a player's five-man unit defends on the court, because it doesn't account for all the times players are screened off their man, or how many times they don't defend their position (but we've been over this before).

 

That's why I used Drtg as well. LeBron had the best Drtg on on the Cavs. Artest and Kobe were 4th and 5th best on the Lakers. Wallace had the 2nd best on the Bobcats (behind Tyrus Thomas, who played only 500 minutes for them). Nash had the worst Drtg on the entire Suns team. Roy was 14th on his own team. Combining Drtg and opponent counterpart is the most effective way of determining defensive value statistically.

 

And despite the numbers being in favor of Roy being a poor defender, I said he was average. He's nothing special, and certainly doesn't make up for the gap in his offensive game from 9 of the other 10 players I place ahead of him in my superstar tier.

 

And I never said Roy was having MVP seasons. I'm not interested in comparing his stats to Bryant's 35 PPG season. My entire point is, a player that is more complete than another should be considered a superstar if the other (Durant) is considered an MVP candidate, with one 50-win season and a first-round playoff loss where he played like utter crap. I gave you that, and you had the excuse for it, and completely turned the discussion into, "Does Brandon Roy average 30 or throw 10 assists?" Suddenly, Roy is required to do that, or have a more dominating performance than 27/5/3 against those Rockets in the playoffs.

 

Considering each and every one of those players in my grouping are at least top 3-4 and dominant in their strongest area (scoring, passing, defense, etc...), while Roy isn't, that is a red flag. Yes, he has a more polished/well-rounded game than a guy like Durant or even Dirk, but without that dominant attribute he isn't dominating games on a consistent basis. I provided the stats and I provided my reasoning. Give me a guy like Durant, who can score 30PPG and carry his team in a dominant fashion while being at least average to above average in other areas (as opposed to a guy like Kevin Martin) over Roy anyday.

 

He would average 25+ if he wanted the ball in his hands at all times (not like he can't take over games and drop 40-50 points).

 

Last 2 seasons the Blazers were 33-16 when Roy scored 25 or more points, which in a full season would make the Blazers a 56 win team. If he had the capacity, mentally and physically, to average 25PPG or more, you don't think he would? If he was dropping 26-27PPG, would his passing game and scoring efficiency change? We don't know, it's all assumption. But until he does score like those other elite scorers on my list, I can't put him in that same grouping.

 

You say Dirk is a superstar because he has had multiple 50-win seasons and went to the Finals?

 

Don't put words in my mouth. Dirk scores more on better efficiency than Roy, and throughout his career has shown he can explode for huge games in a dominant fashion consistently. He has done so for stretches in a season, and also in many playoff series. He is also a quality rebounder (very good in meaningful post-season games, usually over 10+ boards), a quality passer at his position and is a capable defender. His post-season resume just adds to his case for being considered a superstar.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Nitro

[Big Penny]

the way i look at it, a superstar is someone who, when i speak to non-NBA fans, they know who they are. although this is a very high standard... Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson are the only players i consider 'superstars' i take it not as how good they are, rather how popular they are.

[Real Deal]

When did I put words into your mouth?

 

Some may disagree with Nash and Dirk, but every damn year their team's win 50+ games despite who their supporting cast is, both have MVP's, and both can dominate ball-games like only those other 8 guys can.

LeBron won the last two MVP's. If we're going to talk about players being superstars, we should probably stick to what they've done over the last season or two, not what they were doing in 3-5 years ago, or else Tim Duncan makes the list.

 

Artest and Kobe were 4th and 5th best on the Lakers.

Then there's no point in using the stats, because they were, by far, the two best defensive players on the team. ORTG makes similar mistakes. According to ORTG numbers, four other Lakers are higher than Bryant..and one is Sasha Vujacic. Two years ago, Channing Frye was ranked above Roy in DRTG...and I'm a better defender than Frye.

 

Last season's Suns, Robin Lopez was fifth...under Channing Frye and Amare Stoudemire. Dudley was seventh.

 

I've seen Kobe, LeBron and Wade all struggle when Roy switches over to defend them in spurts, and I've seen it happen to Kobe more than those two because I've watched every Lakers game since I can remember. He is in no way, shape or form your average defensive player.

 

Taking DRTG and allowed EFG% numbers to support a player's defensive abilities is like taking a bench player's PPG in garbage time, and multiplying it by four to see how many he would average if he were a starter.

 

If we go back to those DRTG numbers, they even show that Kevin Durant is a better defender than both Kobe and Artest, and that he's nearly as good as LeBron...which is something you probably don't agree with, just like saying Kobe was a better defensive player than Jordan ever was, since Kobe's best DRTG was a 98, and Jordan never found his way under 100 in his entire career.

 

Combining Drtg and opponent counterpart is the most effective way of determining defensive value statistically.

No, watching the players play basketball is.

[deestillballin]

The same reason why Brandon has Pau Gasol listed as an all star. He just simply isn't there completely. At this point, I don't consider Dirk even better than Pau, so there's no reason for me to call him a superstar.

 

As for Nash, I guess you could make the case for him, but does he really dominate games?

 

 

ROFL @ This really?!

 

Pau couldn't even get out of the first round vs Dirk and you say hes BETTER than Dirk. Pau (Which i dont hate so please dont get confused) couldnt even make the playoffs let alone if he did make it it out the first round. Dirk on the other hand has had 110 50+ season wins.

 

Now Im not saying Dirk is a "SUPERSTAR" but he is border line Superstar but to say Pau is better than Dirk is crazy.

[The Lone Granger]

ROFL @ This really?!

 

Pau couldn't even get out of the first round vs Dirk and you say hes BETTER than Dirk. Pau (Which i dont hate so please dont get confused) couldnt even make the playoffs let alone if he did make it it out the first round. Dirk on the other hand has had 110 50+ season wins.

 

Now Im not saying Dirk is a "SUPERSTAR" but he is border line Superstar but to say Pau is better than Dirk is crazy.

 

Reading ABL's post, he never said that Pau was better than Dirk...all he said was that Dirk wasn't better than Gasol. I don't think you can put words in his mouth there. Just thought I'd put that there. And as for Dirk, there is no way he's a superstar anymore. Maybe back a few years ago you could have made a stronger case, but not now.

[Nitro]

When did I put words into your mouth?

 

LeBron won the last two MVP's. If we're going to talk about players being superstars, we should probably stick to what they've done over the last season or two, not what they were doing in 3-5 years ago, or else Tim Duncan makes the list.

 

It's funny how you bolded the first part of the quote, when my rebuttal to what you're saying is in the part you didn't bold. "and dominate like only those 8 other guys can."...that's the meat and potatoes of that quote, and it's precisely why Duncan doesn't make my list. And I personally thinking using things players did 4, 5 years ago is perfectly fine as long as they haven't dropped off individually.

 

Then there's no point in using the stats, because they were, by far, the two best defensive players on the team. ORTG makes similar mistakes. According to ORTG numbers, four other Lakers are higher than Bryant..and one is Sasha Vujacic. Two years ago, Channing Frye was ranked above Roy in DRTG...and I'm a better defender than Frye.

 

Last season's Suns, Robin Lopez was fifth...under Channing Frye and Amare Stoudemire. Dudley was seventh.

 

I've seen Kobe, LeBron and Wade all struggle when Roy switches over to defend them in spurts, and I've seen it happen to Kobe more than those two because I've watched every Lakers game since I can remember. He is in no way, shape or form your average defensive player.

 

Taking DRTG and allowed EFG% numbers to support a player's defensive abilities is like taking a bench player's PPG in garbage time, and multiplying it by four to see how many he would average if he were a starter.

 

If we go back to those DRTG numbers, they even show that Kevin Durant is a better defender than both Kobe and Artest, and that he's nearly as good as LeBron...which is something you probably don't agree with, just like saying Kobe was a better defensive player than Jordan ever was, since Kobe's best DRTG was a 98, and Jordan never found his way under 100 in his entire career.

 

No, watching the players play basketball is.

 

Do you even read what you're quoting? I said statistically. I'm not using the stats as an end-all, be-all, but when you're 14th on your own team in Drtg and your opponent counterpart numbers are relatively poor, I do think it's a decent indicator your not some hidden gem defensively. And despite those statistics, I said Roy was an average defensive player because, believe it or not, I've seen him play just a few times. He's a smart defender, but that's it. He's not a lockdown defender, doesn't have great lateral quickness, doesn't play aggressive defense, doesn't affect the game at ALL in terms of playing passing lanes (less than 1SPG, which is quite rare for a SG playing nearly 40MPG), and he's not some master at contesting shots. He's an average, smart defensive player.

 

At his position, he's middle of the pack defensive....Wade, Kobe, Hinrich, Sefolosho, Affalo, Iguodala, Delonte, Tony Allen, Bell, and Courtney Lee are all better off the top of my head. If you aren't even top 10 defensively at your position, you're not a game-changer. Not enough for me to say it's such a huge advantage he has over Nash or Dirk (who is also an average defender) that it makes up for the fact that those two can dominate offensively on a more consistent basis than Roy, and also have extremely impressive post-season resumes.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

It's funny how you bolded the first part of the quote, when my rebuttal to what you're saying is in the part you didn't bold. "and dominate like only those 8 other guys can."...that's the meat and potatoes of that quote, and it's precisely why Duncan doesn't make my list.

That's the other thing. You don't even consider Duncan? Is it because he doesn't average 30 PPG, or 14 RPG, or 4 BPG, or 10 APG? 21/12 average, just 51% FG throughout his career. Per 36 (which is what he would be getting if Pop wasn't resting him for the playoffs), he's still averaging the same numbers he has throughout his entire career, with one of his highest shooting percentages ever.

 

Duncan has been a superstar for years without doing any of that. It's why he's the greatest power forward of all-time, and why he has four rings.

 

I wonder if you consider Scottie Pippen a superstar at any point of his career.

 

There isn't much more for me to say, really.

[Nitro]

That's the other thing. You don't even consider Duncan? Is it because he doesn't average 30 PPG, or 14 RPG, or 4 BPG, or 10 APG? 21/12 average, just 51% FG throughout his career. Per 36 (which is what he would be getting if Pop wasn't resting him for the playoffs), he's still averaging the same numbers he has throughout his entire career, with one of his highest shooting percentages ever.

 

That's the thing...he's not capable of playing 37-40 minutes he was playing in his prime, and can't carry the load on a consistent basis anymore. His defense also isn't anywhere near what it once was. He's blocking nearly a full shot less per 36min than he used to, and he consistently gets burned by quick PF's. He is still capable of playing like a superstar on occasion, and is still without a doubt an All-Star, but I don't consider him a superstar anymore because he just can't carry a team often. His last few post-season appearances have also been pretty underwhelming as well.

 

If I were to call Duncan a superstar, I feel I'd have to do the same with Gasol (who is more deserving than Duncan at this point) and a few other players on that 2nd tier, including Roy (who I also feel is more deserving than Duncan).