I'm starting to think Chris Paul is the best PG of all time...

[Erick Blasco]

Yep. The stat that combines all stats.

 

PER has a pretty severe bias of volume over efficiency (as I keep finding out in this fantasy league I'm in that uses PER as the stat). It's far from a foolproof baseline.

 

Deron Williams has gotten off to a slow start this season, but the Jazz flow has been muddled by so many new faces, and Sloan's offense is all about continuity. I wish Williams played in a pure high screen/roll system so his numbers would be extraordinarily high at the expense of a relatively (compared to Utah's hyper-flex) simplistic and easier to stop offense. Or if Paul played in a more nuanced system where he actually had to give the ball up.

 

Paul keeps proving that he's better than Nash (they run similar bases), but I'm not jumping off the Williams bandwagon. He's been commanding an extremely efficient offense at a very high level his entire career, and he's become one of the best defensive point guards in the league, especially against opposing two-guards.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Erick Blasco

[kingfish]

Deron is averaging 20, 5, and 9 also so lets not forget about him. Its still

 

1. Deron

2. CP3

[Poe]

Show me a CP3 MVP then?

 

Where are they?

 

Magic has THREE MVP's

 

3>0

 

I believe MVPs are given to the best player on the best team, though I would prefer if it were awarded differently. I don't think CP3 has been a part of the best regular season team in the league yet.

 

Either way, there is always bias involved when selecting the league MVP. Every year, there is always someone saying that someone else deserved the award more.

 

 

Awards in general don't mean much if the requirements to earn the award are vague or flawed enough. Barack Obama has a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Guest The REAL STL10]

PER has a pretty severe bias of volume over efficiency (as I keep finding out in this fantasy league I'm in that uses PER as the start). It's far from a foolproof baseline.

 

Deron Williams has gotten off to a slow start this season, but the Jazz flow has been muddled by so many new faces, and Sloan's offense is all about continuity. I wish Williams played in a pure high screen/roll system so his numbers would be extraordinarily high at the expense of a relatively (compared to Utah's hyper-flex) simplistic and easier to stop offense. Or if Paul played in a more nuanced system where he actually had to give the ball up.

 

Paul keeps proving that he's better than Nash (they run similar bases), but I'm not jumping off the Williams bandwagon. He's been commanding an extremely efficient offense at a very high level his entire career, and he's become one of the best defensive point guards in the league, especially against opposing two-guards.

 

It's not like it's win shares in baseball or something.

 

PER is an important stat, but to overvalue it over them all?

 

Questionable at best...

[Guest The REAL STL10]

I believe MVPs are given to the best player on the best team, though I would prefer if it were awarded differently. I don't think CP3 has been a part of the best regular season team in the league yet.

 

Either way, there is always bias involved when selecting the league MVP. Every year, there is always someone saying that someone else deserved the award more.

 

 

Awards in general don't mean much if the requirements to earn the award are vague or flawed enough. Barack Obama has a Nobel Peace Prize.

 

Andre Dawson won an MVP on a last place Chicago Cubs team in 1987.

 

The MVP is not flawed, your argument is the only thing flawed here...

[Poe]

Paul keeps proving that he's better than Nash (they run similar bases), but I'm not jumping off the Williams bandwagon. He's been commanding an extremely efficient offense at a very high level his entire career, and he's become one of the best defensive point guards in the league, especially against opposing two-guards.

 

I used stats because STL10 did. Stats in the NBA aren't sophisticated enough to truly measure the greater individual player.

[Lemon]

It's not impossible, but even if he was the greatest PG of all time he wouldn't be recognized for it unless he begins a dynasty. Looking at his team right now, they'd be lucky to get to the Finals. That's because he doesn't have the team that Oscar, Stockton, Isiah, or Magic had.

 

Magic was a great PG because he had one hell of a team, and CP3's team doesn't even touch it.

[Nitro]

PER has a pretty severe bias of volume over efficiency (as I keep finding out in this fantasy league I'm in that uses PER as the start). It's far from a foolproof baseline.

 

Deron Williams has gotten off to a slow start this season, but the Jazz flow has been muddled by so many new faces, and Sloan's offense is all about continuity. I wish Williams played in a pure high screen/roll system so his numbers would be extraordinarily high at the expense of a relatively (compared to Utah's hyper-flex) simplistic and easier to stop offense. Or if Paul played in a more nuanced system where he actually had to give the ball up.

 

Paul keeps proving that he's better than Nash (they run similar bases), but I'm not jumping off the Williams bandwagon. He's been commanding an extremely efficient offense at a very high level his entire career, and he's become one of the best defensive point guards in the league, especially against opposing two-guards.

 

There is NO WAY Williams is a better PG than Paul. Paul can score more on better efficiency (from all areas on the court), racks up more assists while averaging about a turnover less per game, rebounds better, and IMO is the better defender (not man-to-man, but Paul's ability to play the passing lanes does make a big impact). I also believe Paul is more clutch (I'm sure stats from his healthy years prove this) and the better on-court leader. All-around he's simply a better player.

[Poe]

The MVP is not flawed

 

There is no exact measurement for an MVP award. It's not like a gold medal where you win a race, you win the award. It's chosen through a vote, where bias is very involved. Therefor the MVP award, or at least the way the winner is chosen, is flawed.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Poe

[Real Deal]

If you HAVE to debate who's better between Chris Paul and Deron Williams, there's no way CP3 is better than Magic Johnson.

[Guest The REAL STL10]

If you HAVE to debate who's better between Chris Paul and Deron Williams, there's no way CP3 is better than Magic Johnson.

 

The whole idea of this thread is ridiculous.

 

Anyone who ever saw Magic play knows that he is CLEARLY the best.

[Nitro]

If you HAVE to debate who's better between Chris Paul and Deron Williams, there's no way CP3 is better than Magic Johnson.

 

Give me a break. That's like saying if you HAVE to debate who is better between Kobe and LeBron, then there's no way Kobe is better than Jordan.

[Guest The REAL STL10]

I didn't realize overall playing ability is defined by the number of triple doubles a player has gotten. I'll keep that in mind.

 

Yeah, averaging a triple double in a season is easy to do.

 

I guess we won't measure using that...

 

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif

[Guest The REAL STL10]

Give me a break. That's like saying if you HAVE to debate who is better between Kobe and LeBron, then there's no way Kobe is better than Jordan.

 

Jordan > Anyone

[Erick Blasco]

There is NO WAY Williams is a better PG than Paul. Paul can score more on better efficiency (from all areas on the court), racks up more assists while averaging about a turnover less per game, rebounds better, and IMO is the better defender (not man-to-man, but Paul's ability to play the passing lanes does make a big impact). I also believe Paul is more clutch (I'm sure stats from his healthy years prove this) and the better on-court leader. All-around he's simply a better player.

 

I'm not going to say Paul is more clutch than Williams, not when Williams is hitting playoff buzzer beaters to take down the Lakers.

 

Paul does it all on high screen/rolls, which can be stopped by a good defense that has time to prepare. Denver two years ago took advantages of all the shortcuts in Paul's game (his inability to play without the ball, his habit of sagging way back into passing lanes to pick off entry passes to the post, his smallish defense near the basket) and made the Hornets look incredibly average.

 

That Nuggets team was back on its heels the entire series against the Jazz last year because the offense is so fluid and there are no shortcuts to Utah's game.

 

Yeah the Hornets don't have too many playmates for Paul, but there's no balance to the Hornets. Even this year, with the Hornets playing at such a high level, their offensive rating is only in the middle of the pack and it's only eclipsed the top 10 once in the past five years (the same year Utah led the league in offensive rating).

 

You can say, yeah the Hornets offense is easier to stop when Paul gives the ball up because his teammates are worse, but you can also say the Hornets offense is easier to stop when Paul gives the ball up because it isn't an offense that caters much to balanced, versatile offense.

[Real Deal]

Give me a break. That's like saying if you HAVE to debate who is better between Kobe and LeBron, then there's no way Kobe is better than Jordan.

So Deron Williams is in the same discussion as Magic?

[Flash]

So Deron Williams is in the same discussion as Magic?

 

No, that's not a debate and neither is CP3 vs. Deron. Some people try and make it one but CP3 puts up better stats all across the board with far less talent around him.

[Guest The REAL STL10]

So Deron Williams is in the same discussion as Magic?

 

LOL, Deron Williams isn't even the best PG in his TEAM'S history.

 

How in the hell could he get in the discussion for NBA history!?

 

SMH at today's youth...

[Guest The REAL STL10]

No, that's not a debate and neither is CP3 vs. Deron. Some people try and make it one but CP3 puts up better stats all across the board with far less talent around him.

 

CP3 > D-Will in every way....

 

There is a reason people draft him 4-6 spots higher in most fantasy basketball drafts...

[Real Deal]

No, that's not a debate and neither is CP3 vs. Deron. Some people try and make it one but CP3 puts up better stats all across the board with far less talent around him.

Like Kobe when he put up 35 PPG with just Odom, Parker, Kwame and Walton?

 

Like LeBron when he's not playing alongside Wade and Bosh?

 

I'm not sure what you guys are trying to say.

[Flash]

Like Kobe when he put up 35 PPG with just Odom, Parker, Kwame and Walton?

 

Like LeBron when he's not playing alongside Wade and Bosh?

 

I'm not sure what you guys are trying to say.

 

CP3 definitely isn't Magic. Let me start with that.

 

I just don't see what makes Williams a better player than him.

[Real Deal]

The debate is ridiculous, and I'm not going to have anyone drag me into this mess for some other reason.

 

18.6 PPG on .537 FG, 9.6 RPG, 9.5 APG, 2.7 SPG

17.6 PPG on .565 FG, 7.3 RPG, 13.1 APG, 2.2 SPG

 

Give me ONE CP3 season that even comes close to those two by Magic's, and you'll have a reason to talk. Paul has never shot that well, never averaged that many assists, matched that many steals (barely exceeded it with 2.8), never even came CLOSE to that many rebounds...is this a joke?

 

And those are just two seasons. I'm sure there are more that Magic has racked up that CP3 doesn't touch.

[xx.]

I cant believe he MIGHT BE has the most votes right now.....wtf?

 

Not now, not ever.

[Flash]

I cant believe he MIGHT BE has the most votes right now.....wtf?

 

Not now, not ever.

 

He's still young. He won't ever be the rebounder Magic was because the height difference is too much. I think he can put up similar assist numbers once he plays with an actual 2nd tier NBA player and will put up those scoring numbers if not better ones.

 

Still, at the end of the day Magic >>>>> CP3.

[kingfish]

Give me a break. That's like saying if you HAVE to debate who is better between Kobe and LeBron, then there's no way Kobe is better than Jordan.

You really dont have to debate Kobe - Lebron though. Its obvious Kobe is better and im not liein.

 

Not to derail the topic though, that just means that CP3 is nowhere near Magics level, his comparsion is with Deron Williams. Neither are close to Magic.

Edited November 8, 2010 by kingfish