I'm starting to think Chris Paul is the best PG of all time...

[Flash]

You really dont have to debate Kobe - Lebron though. Its obvious Kobe is better and im not liein.

 

Its a better debate than D-Will/CP3 much less CP3/Magic lol.

[Nitro]

I'm not going to say Paul is more clutch than Williams, not when Williams is hitting playoff buzzer beaters to take down the Lakers.

 

That's a very, very flawed arguement. Williams has played in far many more playoff games than Paul, so to use one example is kind of silly. In the regular season Paul's clutch stats (according to 82games.com) have been FAR better than Williams each of the last 3 seasons, and through 2009 he had 2 more GW shots on 3% better shooting in those situations, and the same amount of assists and turnovers in those situations.

 

Paul does it all on high screen/rolls, which can be stopped by a good defense that has time to prepare.

 

Paul can also do it off dribble penetration extremely well, better than Williams. And without a doubt Paul is a better PnR player than Williams, which is a vital play for any offense.

 

As for teams stopping Paul's bread and butter PnR play, let's look at what he's done against arguably the best PnR defense of the last decade, the Boston Celtics. Last season, in 1 game, Paul averaged 22/8/3 on 69% shooting against them. In 08-09, in 2 games, he averaged 17/10/4 on 36% shooting. In 07-08, in 2 games, he averaged 21/9/5 on 50% shooting against them. So, in the last 3 seasons, that's 19.6PPG/9.1APG (11 TO's through 5 games, so only 2.5 TO's per game) on 47.0% shooting (about Williams' usual averages) against a team tailor-made to stop Paul's greatest offensive strength. Not too shabby.

 

Denver two years ago took advantages of all the shortcuts in Paul's game (his inability to play without the ball, his habit of sagging way back into passing lanes to pick off entry passes to the post, his smallish defense near the basket) and made the Hornets look incredibly average.

 

What about the way Derek Fisher's physicality completely threw off Williams' game last post-season, forcing him into sub-40% shooting for the series and not a single game of double digit assists? And Williams has never had a post-season as good as Paul's 2008 campaign, where he averaged 24/11/5 with less than 2 TO's per game, and where he pushed the defending champs to 7 games with a less talented supporting cast than Williams has routinely had.

 

That Nuggets team was back on its heels the entire series against the Jazz last year because the offense is so fluid and there are no shortcuts to Utah's game.

 

Bingo.

 

Yeah the Hornets don't have too many playmates for Paul, but there's no balance to the Hornets. Even this year, with the Hornets playing at such a high level, their offensive rating is only in the middle of the pack and it's only eclipsed the top 10 once in the past five years (the same year Utah led the league in offensive rating).

 

You can say, yeah the Hornets offense is easier to stop when Paul gives the ball up because his teammates are worse, but you can also say the Hornets offense is easier to stop when Paul gives the ball up because it isn't an offense that caters much to balanced, versatile offense.

 

Until Paul is given teammates that aren't best suited to have Paul create their offense, I think it's foolish to use what the Jazz as a team (who have been much more talented) have done over what the Hornets have done. But in strict head-to-head analysis, Paul can score more on better efficiency from the field/3pt/FT line, rack up more assists with less turnovers, rebounds better, is at least very close to (at worst) as good a defender as Williams, is IMO a better clutch player and on-court floor general. I just don't see the arguement for Williams being better.

[Nitro]

The debate is ridiculous, and I'm not going to have anyone drag me into this mess for some other reason.

 

18.6 PPG on 59.0% TS, 9.6 RPG, 9.5 APG, 2.7 SPG, 3.7 TO's

17.6 PPG on 62.8% TS, 7.3 RPG, 13.1 APG, 2.2 SPG, 4.6 TO's

 

Give me ONE CP3 season that even comes close to those two by Magic's, and you'll have a reason to talk. Paul has never shot that well, never averaged that many assists, matched that many steals (barely exceeded it with 2.8), never even came CLOSE to that many rebounds...is this a joke?

 

And those are just two seasons. I'm sure there are more that Magic has racked up that CP3 doesn't touch.

 

To play devil's advocate (because I believe Magic was a better player than CP3), I replaced Magic's FG% with TS% (a more encompassing stat for scoring efficiency), included TO's, and here is CP3's 2008-2009 statline...

 

22.8PPG on 59.9% TS, 5.5 RPG, 11.0 APG, 2.8 SPG, 3.0 TO's

 

[fish7718]

I think we are missing a key point here...

 

Can anyone imagine how many assists CP3 would avg had he played with Kareem Abdul-Jabaar? [expletive] CP3 turned Tyson Chandler into a semi-decent offensive player. Not to mention all the other players on that 1980's roster . I think Magic is better but it's certainly not a laughable comparison. STL you can show us all the numbers you want CP3 is capable of averaging 20 4 15 with that roster.

 

MVP - MOST VALUABLE / not best / if it were best Kobe and LeBron would win it ever year and there would be no point to it

[Flash]

I think we are missing a key point here...

 

Can anyone imagine how many assists CP3 would avg had he played with Kareem Abdul-Jabaar? [expletive] CP3 turned Tyson Chandler into a semi-decent offensive player. Not to mention all the other players on that 1980's roster . I think Magic is better but it's certainly not a laughable comparison. STL you can show us all the numbers you want CP3 is capable of averaging 20 4 15 with that roster.

 

MVP - MOST VALUABLE / not best / if it were best Kobe and LeBron would win it ever year and there would be no point to it

 

I don't think people realize the garbage CP3 has played next to at times in NO.

[fish7718]

Like Kobe when he put up 35 PPG with just Odom, Parker, Kwame and Walton?

 

Like LeBron when he's not playing alongside Wade and Bosh?

 

I'm not sure what you guys are trying to say.

That's silly, you are comparing SG's/SF's/PF's to PG's, absolutley ridiculous

[Real Deal]

I have no reason to ever consider TS% because free throws aren't defended. Kevin Durant can hit 90% from the line, but stick Ron Artest in his face and, suddenly, his shooting percentage hits rock bottom. Doesn't tell me much about Durant if I add his FT% to his overall FG%.

[Sun Tzu]

Yes, he is EASILY the best PG in the league right now. You know people started writing CP3 off in the off-season saying Deron is better but Chris Paul has only proved them wrong, does anyone still think Deron is better than Chris Paul?

[Nitro]

I have no reason to ever consider TS% because free throws aren't defended. Kevin Durant can hit 90% from the line, but stick Ron Artest in his face and, suddenly, his shooting percentage hits rock bottom. Doesn't tell me much about Durant if I add his FT% to his overall FG%.

 

That's crazy. First off, it also includes 3pt shooting, where CP3 for the last 5 seasons has been anywhere between 36-41% (40%+ the last 2). Secondly, FT shooting is very important, and for guys that get to the line 6-8x per game like Paul/Magic do/did, it is certainly a factor. To be fair, though, for their career's Paul and Magic have identical FT shooting percentages, but Paul's FT shooting was much better in 08-09 than the two seasons you brought up for Magic.

[Real Deal]

Can anyone imagine how many assists CP3 would avg had he played with Kareem Abdul-Jabaar?

Kareem wasn't Amare, though. While he did run the break here and there with Showtime, he also did a lot of posting up and getting his own baskets off his hooks, which completely eliminated that assist for Magic.

 

Sort of similar to Kobe and Shaq.

 

I mean, just take a look at Nash...one of the greatest point guards to have if you want one to run any style of offense, yet he never averaged 12 APG despite having Amare, Marion and Joe Johnson, and even Dirk in Dallas.

[Real Deal]

That's crazy. First off, it also includes 3pt shooting, where CP3 for the last 5 seasons has been anywhere between 36-41% (40%+ the last 2). Secondly, FT shooting is very important, and for guys that get to the line 6-8x per game like Paul/Magic do/did, it is certainly a factor. To be fair, though, for their career's Paul and Magic have identical FT shooting percentages, but Paul's FT shooting was much better in 08-09 than the two seasons you brought up for Magic.

FG% includes threes.

[Nitro]

FG% includes threes.

 

Touche lol. Still, when Paul is shooting 8-10% better from the FT linein 08-09 than Magic those 2 seasons, it's a big factor.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

Touche lol. Still, when Paul is shooting 8-10% better from the FT linein 08-09 than Magic those 2 seasons, it's a big factor.

For me, that's just showing how much he contributed to the team, scoring-wise.

 

But it doesn't tell me much about how well he does with a defender on him. Nothing at all, actually.

 

I want to know what these guys do in-game, man in their face, defense focused on them AND back on defense, when it's their time to do that dirty work.

 

By the numbers, I'm sure CP3 could be a 25+ PPG scorer if he really wanted to. Don't know if Magic could do that his entire career, although he would probably still be more efficient at it because of his height and size.

 

However, Steve Nash racked up 18.6 PPG and 11.6 APG with a TS% of .654, but I don't see very many people calling his number with Magic's.

[fish7718]

Kareem wasn't Amare, though. While he did run the break here and there with Showtime, he also did a lot of posting up and getting his own baskets off his hooks, which completely eliminated that assist for Magic.

 

Sort of similar to Kobe and Shaq.

 

I mean, just take a look at Nash...one of the greatest point guards to have if you want one to run any style of offense, yet he never averaged 12 APG despite having Amare, Marion and Joe Johnson, and even Dirk in Dallas.

This is true, but just by being on the court and commanding a double team he creates assist opportunities for Magic. Plus Magic also played with Byron Scott and James Worthy, I know I have to tell you this as you know a lot more Lakers than me. There's no way you can argue Magic won't have a lot more assist opperunites when playing with

 

Scott, Worthy and Jabaar Vs West Chandler and Peja

[Nitro]

For me, that's just showing how much he contributed to the team, scoring-wise.

 

But it doesn't tell me much about how well he does with a defender on him. Nothing at all, actually.

 

I want to know what these guys do in-game, man in their face, defense focused on them AND back on defense, when it's their time to do that dirty work.

 

By the numbers, I'm sure CP3 could be a 25+ PPG scorer if he really wanted to. Don't know if Magic could do that his entire career, although he would probably still be more efficient at it because of his height and size.

 

Another thing to consider when looking at scoring volume and efficiency is pace and what the rest of the league was doing. Back when Magic was playing, teams were routinely scoring 115-120PPG and guards were routinely shooting 50%+ from the field because of the pace. Not to mention the HoF finishers and coach Magic had. For Paul to score at such volume and efficiency as he does, average as many assists with such low TO's, average as many boards for his size, rack up as many steals...it's all insanely impressive. From a pure statistical standpoint (I already gave my real analysis in my first post), Paul's 08-09 season IS in the same ballpark as most of Magic's best seasons. I won't say better, or as good, but what Paul did that season statistically is more impressive than any Kidd, Nash, Isiah, or many other of the elite PG's have ever had. Only guys in the same ballpark, statistically, are Magic, Stockton and the Big O.

 

However, Steve Nash racked up 18.6 PPG and 11.6 APG with a TS% of .654, but I don't see very many people calling his number with Magic's.

 

Because he didn't get it done on the defensive end. Offensively, what he's done on the Suns the last 5 years is in the same ballpark as Magic. Actually, very similar situations. Both were in situations where they had a lot of offensive talent and were in offensive minded systems. Both ran the very best offenses of their era's, and did things that other PG's really never have. Defensively and on the boards is where the big differences are, besides accoldades.

[Real Deal]

Showtime was about running the break with numbers, didn't always give Magic that assist. They did it more than any other team in history, including the seven-second Suns.

 

When Magic put up his highest APG average, Kareem was still getting his buckets in the post, few assisted on. With six teammates that could score 10-20 points in any given game (this is including Kareem), Magic did have room to put up those big assist numbers. However, Michael Cooper handled the ball quite a bit on the break and in a half court set, and he pulled in nearly six assists himself. Worthy was taking the ball to the rim most of the time and getting his own, as Wilkes was knocking down his "20-foot layups" (RIP Chick).

 

Magic's teammates didn't depend on him as much as many may claim. CP3's guys? I truly can't say, because I don't watch the Hornets as much as I do at least 10 other teams in the league, but you'd think they would, just like LeBron's shooters in Cleveland (from Damon Jones and Daniel Gibson to Mo Williams and Anthony Parker). That has to account for something.

[Erick Blasco]

That's a very, very flawed arguement. Williams has played in far many more playoff games than Paul, so to use one example is kind of silly. In the regular season Paul's clutch stats (according to 82games.com) have been FAR better than Williams each of the last 3 seasons, and through 2009 he had 2 more GW shots on 3% better shooting in those situations, and the same amount of assists and turnovers in those situations.

 

I'm trying to say that "more clutch" is kind of a silly term. You're either clutch or you're not clutch. I'm not trying to dispute Paul's ability to get the job done late in games. That's a futile argument. But Williams has proven to also be a player who gets results late in games. Hence why I'm not going to call Paul "more clutch." I mean, would anybody call Hedo Turkoglu "more super-clutch" than Kobe Bryant? I'd hope not. But both players have proven that they will perform well with the game on the line.

 

 

 

Paul can also do it off dribble penetration extremely well, better than Williams. And without a doubt Paul is a better PnR player than Williams, which is a vital play for any offense.

 

I would say that Paul is a better high screen/roll player than Williams (though I would argue that Williams is a better wing screen/roll player). I would also say that Paul is a better iso scorer too, though Williams is lethal in the post.

 

As for teams stopping Paul's bread and butter PnR play, let's look at what he's done against arguably the best PnR defense of the last decade, the Boston Celtics. Last season, in 1 game, Paul averaged 22/8/3 on 69% shooting against them. In 08-09, in 2 games, he averaged 17/10/4 on 36% shooting. In 07-08, in 2 games, he averaged 21/9/5 on 50% shooting against them. So, in the last 3 seasons, that's 19.6PPG/9.1APG (11 TO's through 5 games, so only 2.5 TO's per game) on 47.0% shooting (about Williams' usual averages) against a team tailor-made to stop Paul's greatest offensive strength. Not too shabby.

 

I know it's not the premise of your argument but D-Will averages 22/8.5, (with 3.7 turnovers---not awful against a defense like Boston) on 51% shooting against a team capable of disrupting an offense like Utah's. It's hard to assume what a team like Boston would do against these two if they had more than two game samples and more time to scout.

 

Also, the Jazz posted offensive ratings of 95.4 and up in all six games, while the Hornets had two games above 93.9. It's easier to stop an opponent when there's only one base play to worry about.

 

And don't use rebounds to criticize Williams vs. Paul. Williams leaks out to the wing on opposing team's shots while Paul goes back to rebound, slowing down New Orleans' break and transition game. This is why Utah's transition game is so good. Because they don't have a point guard slowing down the break by rebounding. Paul is so good in the open court, yet the Hornets play at such a slow pace. If Paul were leaking out too, it would do wonders for the Hornets offense!

 

 

What about the way Derek Fisher's physicality completely threw off Williams' game last post-season, forcing him into sub-40% shooting for the series and not a single game of double digit assists? And Williams has never had a post-season as good as Paul's 2008 campaign, where he averaged 24/11/5 with less than 2 TO's per game, and where he pushed the defending champs to 7 games with a less talented supporting cast than Williams has routinely had.

 

Williams also hasn't had a postseason as bad as Paul's 2009, where he posted a negative win share. Fisher and the Lakers had three seasons of postseason scouting on the Jazz going into last season, with a defense that improved every year, while the Jazz had an injured starting center and traded away their starting shooting guard mid-season. the two seasons prior to last, Williams tortured the Lakers in the paint.

 

 

 

Bingo.

 

What was Carlos Boozer before Utah? What was Mehmet Okur with the Pistons? Kyle Korver with the Sixers wasn't anything special. Ronnie Brewer's been hurt, but he isn't starting in Chicago. Wesley Matthews' efficiency numbers are way down in Portland in a lesser role. Al Jefferson's taken the T-Wolves and Celtics absolutely nowhere. Let's not make the Jazz out to be the Lakers. They take interchangeable parts and get the most out of them by running as pure a form of execution as there is in the league. If there's a point guard who can't read the offense, who can't set those back-and cross screens to set up good post position, and who can't be good enough to score when the offense breaks down, the whole thing breaks down.

 

 

Until Paul is given teammates that aren't best suited to have Paul create their offense, I think it's foolish to use what the Jazz as a team (who have been much more talented) have done over what the Hornets have done. But in strict head-to-head analysis, Paul can score more on better efficiency from the field/3pt/FT line, rack up more assists with less turnovers, rebounds better, is at least very close to (at worst) as good a defender as Williams, is IMO a better clutch player and on-court floor general. I just don't see the arguement for Williams being better.

 

The argument is going to be in ways you can put pressure on a defense. It's extremely hard for a one-dimensional offense to succeed against a versatile defense. The only teams to have recent postseason offensive success against good defenses are teams like Phoenix (which boost their offense by playing at an extreme pace which hurts their defense, plus the Suns do more off the ball---Nash will set screens, there's a lot of weak-side baseline brush screen action, more action off the ball in general---than Paul and New Orleans), and the Hornets from two years ago (which, like last year's Suns have realized, figured out that Tim Duncan can't defend a screen anymore).

 

I don't see Williams as a next-level offense runner. He probably has a bit more offensive talent this year than he's ever had (though with a rookie coach). Let's see what he can do.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Erick Blasco

[Erick Blasco]

Also, and I will admit Nitro, that Williams' gameplan embodies everything I would want in a point guard if I were creating a team. Leadership, Versatility, brilliant vision, anticipation, and handling, an incredible basketball IQ, the ability to post smaller guys, break bigger guys, shoot when open, and he's becoming an exceptional defensive point guard (compared at least to the plethora of bad defensive point guards in the league who get lauded as good by default. Devin Harris?).

 

I have a strong bias towards Williams because of this.

 

I've seen Paul do things like dribble away the shot clock until there's two seconds left, pass to a defended teammate, watch as the teammate tries to break free of a tightly-guarding defender so the guy can get off a shot, have the shot go off after the buzzer, and then Paul blasts him for not knowing the shotclock situation.

 

Don't put a guy in an impossible situation and them blow up on him. That's not leadership at all, and he gets lauded as this guy with this incredible will to win. It seems phony to me.

 

D-Will a few games ago got pissed when Gordan Hayward didn't cross the baseline which Utah always does with its wings in early offense. Hayward stayed in the corner with Jefferson on the strong box. Williams wanted to feed Jefferson right away but Hayward's lack-of-spacing by not crossing prevented that. Williams pumped his fist and cursed out. But he still fed Hayward the ball in the corner instead of hanging him out to dry and they ran the offense where Hayward fed AJ, then made a smart cut for a layup. There was a timeout and Williams shouted at Hayward...at his bench, not on the floor. He was pissed. He let Hayward know he was pissed, but he didn't hang the kid out to dry. That's more leadership than saying in interviews that he want's to win so bad.

[Erick Blasco]

Score one for Paul (though the headline is misleading and illustrates why Chris Bosh is so bad defensively...

 

http://bballbreakdown.com/

[Nitro]

I'm trying to say that "more clutch" is kind of a silly term. You're either clutch or you're not clutch. I'm not trying to dispute Paul's ability to get the job done late in games. That's a futile argument. But Williams has proven to also be a player who gets results late in games. Hence why I'm not going to call Paul "more clutch." I mean, would anybody call Hedo Turkoglu "more super-clutch" than Kobe Bryant? I'd hope not. But both players have proven that they will perform well with the game on the line.

 

Eh, I still think it is a factor. At the end of games, give me the guy who's a better and more efficient scorer (with more range), and more efficient ballhandler/playmaker.

 

I know it's not the premise of your argument but D-Will averages 22/8.5, (with 3.7 turnovers---not awful against a defense like Boston) on 51% shooting against a team capable of disrupting an offense like Utah's. It's hard to assume what a team like Boston would do against these two if they had more than two game samples and more time to scout.

 

Also, the Jazz posted offensive ratings of 95.4 and up in all six games, while the Hornets had two games above 93.9. It's easier to stop an opponent when there's only one base play to worry about.

 

My point was that you were labelling Paul as strictly a high PnR player, and over the last 3 seasons he has done quite well against one of the greatest PnR defenses in NBA history.

 

And don't use rebounds to criticize Williams vs. Paul. Williams leaks out to the wing on opposing team's shots while Paul goes back to rebound, slowing down New Orleans' break and transition game. This is why Utah's transition game is so good. Because they don't have a point guard slowing down the break by rebounding. Paul is so good in the open court, yet the Hornets play at such a slow pace. If Paul were leaking out too, it would do wonders for the Hornets offense!

 

Williams has also had, generally, much better rebounders than Paul has, affording him that slight luxory. However, I'd argue that Paul's rebounding in some ways makes the Hornets' fastbreak more dangerous than the Jazz's. Like Magic and more recently Kidd and Rondo, PG's that can hit the boards are a nightmare to defend on the fastbreak.

 

 

Williams also hasn't had a postseason as bad as Paul's 2009, where he posted a negative win share. Fisher and the Lakers had three seasons of postseason scouting on the Jazz going into last season, with a defense that improved every year, while the Jazz had an injured starting center and traded away their starting shooting guard mid-season. the two seasons prior to last, Williams tortured the Lakers in the paint.

 

Paul's 2009 post-season consisted of one series, which was better than Williams' series last year against the Lakers. But, we are splitting hairs. I do feel that what Paul did in that 2008 post-season was better than anything Williams is capable of from an individual standpoint...he slaughtered the Mavs and Spurs. I really don't think Williams is as capable of putting a team on his back and dominating ballgames like Paul is.

 

What was Carlos Boozer before Utah? What was Mehmet Okur with the Pistons? Kyle Korver with the Sixers wasn't anything special. Ronnie Brewer's been hurt, but he isn't starting in Chicago. Wesley Matthews' efficiency numbers are way down in Portland in a lesser role. Al Jefferson's taken the T-Wolves and Celtics absolutely nowhere. Let's not make the Jazz out to be the Lakers. They take interchangeable parts and get the most out of them by running as pure a form of execution as there is in the league. If there's a point guard who can't read the offense, who can't set those back-and cross screens to set up good post position, and who can't be good enough to score when the offense breaks down, the whole thing breaks down.

 

Boozer averaged 18/9 for the Jazz in 2004-2005 as a 3rd year player, they year before Williams was drafted. That same year, per 36min, Okur put up roughly the same numbers he did with Williams. Korver averaged 14PPG on 43% shooting his last season in Philly, and has kicked off this season shooting 59% from 3 with Derrick Rose setting him up. As you said, Brewer is injured, and Mathews is only in his second season, so let's hold off judgements there. And all Al Jefferson's failures in carrying the Wolves or Celtics mean is that he isn't a legit 1st option.

 

The argument is going to be in ways you can put pressure on a defense. It's extremely hard for a one-dimensional offense to succeed against a versatile defense. The only teams to have recent postseason offensive success against good defenses are teams like Phoenix (which boost their offense by playing at an extreme pace which hurts their defense, plus the Suns do more off the ball---Nash will set screens, there's a lot of weak-side baseline brush screen action, more action off the ball in general---than Paul and New Orleans), and the Hornets from two years ago (which, like last year's Suns have realized, figured out that Tim Duncan can't defend a screen anymore).

 

Again, though, everything you said has more to do with coaching and supporting cast as it does the superstar. To imply that Paul can't be extremely effective in a more versatile, well-balanced offense is kind of ridiculous when there isn't anything ro really support that notion. That is why I am looking at this debate from a much more raw, individual manner.

[Big Penny]

Andre Dawson won an MVP on a last place Chicago Cubs team in 1987.

i don't know if you're in the wrong place, but this is Basketball Discussion, not Baseball Discussion.

 

anyways, to say CP3 is better than Magic is completely wrong on so many levels. Magic was a better passer, rebounder, and overall a much more complete player. neither were incredible defenders, the only thing i would give Paul over Magic is scoring. Magic completely revolutionised the PG position... how would CP3 have done starting at Center during his rookie season in the NBA finals? hell, how would CP3 have done starting at Point Guard during in rookie season in the NBA Finals? not as well as Magic i assured you. Maybe (although i really doubt it) CP3 will finish his career as the best PG ever (there's no way of telling) but right now, no he isn't better than Magic.

 

and PER is wack. tbh i think you just started this topic to get a reaction