Crazy Michael Jordan Playoff Stats

[Nitro]

Since I haven't rode Jordan's dick in a few months, I thought I'd share these jaw-dropping stats with ya'll....

 

 

Jordan vs. Boston, 1986 Playoffs - 43.7 ppg 6.3 rpg 5.7 apg 2.3 spg 1.3 bpg 51% FG

 

Jordan vs. Cavs, 1988 Playoffs - 45.2 ppg 5.4 rpg 4.8 apg 2+ spg 1+ bpg 56% FG

 

Jordan vs. Cavs, 1989 Playoffs - 40.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 8.2 apg 2+ spg 1 bpg 53% FG

 

Jordan vs. Philly, 1990 Playoffs - 43.0 ppg 6.6 rpg 7.4 apg 3 spg 1+ bpg 55+% FG

 

Jordan vs. Miami, 1992 Playoffs - 45.0 ppg 9.7 rpg 6.7 apg 3 spg1 bpg 61% FG

 

Jordan vs. Phoenix, 1993 NBA Finals - 41.0 ppg 8.5 rpg 6.3 apg 2 spg 1 bpg 51% FG

 

 

G.O.A.T

[Flash]

Yea after last year I tried to tell myself Kobe was close...but not a chance. GOAT and no one is even remotely close. Those stats are filthy.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Kobe came into this thread and left for good.

[EastCoastNiner]

Tell me how he did without Grant or Rodman. And, then tell me how the Bulls did the first time after he retired. They barely suffered, and would have advanced further without some poor officiating on Pippen.

 

Kobe's already surpassed this cocky fool.

[Check my Stats]

Stoudemire is so good, who needs Nash?

[Flash]

Tell me how he did without Grant or Rodman. And, then tell me how the Bulls did the first time after he retired. They barely suffered, and would have advanced further without some poor officiating on Pippen.

 

Kobe's already surpassed this cocky fool.

 

They didn't win a thing when he was gone.

 

Tell me how Kobe did after Shaq and before Gasol? That argument is flawed.

[Nitro]

Tell me how he did without Grant or Rodman. And, then tell me how the Bulls did the first time after he retired. They barely suffered, and would have advanced further without some poor officiating on Pippen.

 

Tell me how Kobe's done without Fisher (the answer is never out of the first round). Tell me how Shaq did when he replaced Kobe with Wade (the answer is a championship)

 

I don't believe either of the above is a strong arguement as both statements have holes in them, just like what you said does.

 

Also, Kobe has played in more career post-season games than MJ I believe at this point. My challenge to you...find me ONE SERIES Kobe has had that compares to or eclipes any of the ones I posted from MJ. It won't happen, because Kobe has never had been that dominant of a post-season performer.

[Kobe24]

Tell me how Kobe's done without Fisher (the answer is never out of the first round). Tell me how Shaq did when he replaced Kobe with Wade (the answer is a championship)

 

I don't believe either of the above is a strong arguement as both statements have holes in them, just like what you said does.

 

Also, Kobe has played in more career post-season games than MJ I believe at this point. My challenge to you...find me ONE SERIES Kobe has had that compares to or eclipes any of the ones I posted from MJ. It won't happen, because Kobe has never had been that dominant of a post-season performer.

 

Shaq replaced kobe with Wade and won once because of Wade and then failed... Then he replaced Kobe with Lebron and lost.

 

Kobe replaced Shaq with Gasol and won twice now. Oh and still winning.

 

 

But I'm not arguing Kobe vs Jordan because Jordan is the GOAT. Just hate the Shaq argument. Although I thought Kobe was pretty dominant last postseason after draining his knees and having his finger f'd up. Except for the finals but its whatever.

[Nitro]

Shaq replaced kobe with Wade and won once because of Wade and then failed... Then he replaced Kobe with Lebron and lost.

 

Kobe replaced Shaq with Gasol and won twice now. Oh and still winning.

 

 

But I'm not arguing Kobe vs Jordan because Jordan is the GOAT. Just hate the Shaq argument. Although I thought Kobe was pretty dominant last postseason after draining his knees and having his finger f'd up. Except for the finals but its whatever.

 

Did you read the line right after I proposed those two questions? I said those two statements are weak arguements, exactly like the ones ECN said regarding MJ.

[Oliver P]

Yes those stats are very impressive indeed Nitro.

 

I've always said myself that the first reason why Jordan is in my opinion the best player ever (even if I agree that a case can be made for several other players..) is because of his huge performances when it mattered the most, in the playoffs.

 

So I just wanted to add several other impressive Jordan's records in the playoffs and Finals :

 

As you said, Jordan averaged 41 PPG against Phoenix in 93. It's just the best scoring average ever in a finals series. He scored 55 points in one game in the 93 finals again, it's the second best ever performance in a finals game. He scored at least 20 points in 35 consecutive finals games, another record (second is West with 25). He also scored at least 30 points in 9 finals games, second best ever (Baylor was number one). He scored at least 40 points in 4 finals games in a row, NBA record. He scored 35 points in one half of a finals game, NBA record once again.

Important fact, the players who were the closest to Jordan for each of these records all played in another era. Jordan did all this in our era which is even more impressive.

Also even if he's never been considered as a poor 3ts shooter (which is justified), let's not forget that he hit 6 three pointers in one game, it's the third best NBA Finals record. I have to precise that before the last Finals and Ray Allen's performance (8 three pointers), the record was 7 held by Smith and Pip who BOTH made that record when the three points line was closer to the rim (well it's 8 now since the game 2 of those 2010 NBA Finals). Very important to take that in consideration. And Jordan also scored six 3 pointers in one half. Second best NBA Finals record (behind Ray's 7 last year so), tied with Kenny Smith who did it once again when the three points line was closer.

 

Jordan always scored more points in the playoffs than he did in the regular season (at the exception of one season). Jordan's scoring average in playoffs in career is amazing : 33.4 PPG.

 

Jordan scored 63 points in a playoffs game. NBA record. He's also the third in that same stats with 56 points in one game. He scored more than 20 points in a playoffs game 60 times in a row. NBA record. He has the second and third best scoring average for a playoffs series with 45.2 PPG and 45 PPG. The first once again is an Old School player, it's Jerry West.

 

 

Also about this Kobe vs Jordan thing, I already saw on many forums several people asking who was the better of the two and therefore assuming that Kobe was the second best player ever... Which I defintely highly disagree with. Kobe is arguably a top ten player ever, I agree with that, but I would put Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar and Shaq ahead of him without a doubt. For me those seven players are the best ever, no one dominated the game as much as they all did and a case can be made for each as the best player ever. Kobe is at best the 8th best player ever IMO.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Oliver P

[EastCoastNiner]

Tell me how Kobe's done without Fisher (the answer is never out of the first round). Tell me how Shaq did when he replaced Kobe with Wade (the answer is a championship)

 

I don't believe either of the above is a strong arguement as both statements have holes in them, just like what you said does.

 

Also, Kobe has played in more career post-season games than MJ I believe at this point. My challenge to you...find me ONE SERIES Kobe has had that compares to or eclipes any of the ones I posted from MJ. It won't happen, because Kobe has never had been that dominant of a post-season performer.

 

I can tell you that when superstars go down or retire in MJ's case, those teams usually suffer a lot. If you really want to compare his team's performance when he retired the first time to Bird's, Russel, Robertson, ect, I will gladly do that. This guy is so over-rated it's not even funny.

[Check my Stats]

I guess Bosh > MJ too then.

[Nitro]

I can tell you that when superstars go down or retire in MJ's case, those teams usually suffer a lot. If you really want to compare his team's performance when he retired the first time to Bird's, Russel, Robertson, ect, I will gladly do that. This guy is so over-rated it's not even funny.

 

Many of those teams also were older and went into full-fledged rebuilding mode after those superstars retired. The season after MJ retired, Toni Kukoc (very similar to Hedo Turkoglu) and Steve Kerr (one of the greatest 3pt shooter ever) joined a team that had a top 50 player all-time IN HIS PRIME in Pippen and an All-Star in Horace Grant, along with the greatest coach in NBA history. And don't act like the Bulls didn't drop off. They dropped from 2nd in the league in offensive efficiency to 14th. Their point differential dropped from +7pts to +3pts (pretty big difference). They then lost to a team in the playoffs that they beat in 6 games the season before.

 

Also, what is lost in translation is that the Bulls were only a .500 team (33-32, fringe playoff team) in 1994-1995 3/4 of the way through the season when MJ rejoined the team. After he rejoined the team (after missing a year and a half of competitive basketball) the team finished the last 17 games 13-4. And even though they lost against the Magic, he averaged 31/7/4/3 on 48% shooting that series, which statistically was as good/better as either of Kobe's playoff losses against a much softer Suns defense.

 

But, prove to me why Kobe is the better basketball player. Your entire arguement (one with many holes in it) is why MJ shouldn't be the GOAT. Prove to me why Kobe should be the GOAT, and is more deserving than MJ.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Nitro

[AboveLegit]

Jordan's performance in the 1996 NBA finals:

 

27 PPG

41% FG

5.3 RB

4.2 AS

 

Game 6: 5-19, 26% FG, 9 RB – Finals MVP

 

Kobe's 2010 Finals:

29 PPG

41% FG, 32% 3pt FG

8 RB

3.9 AS

 

Game 7: 6-24, 25% FG, 15 RB -- Finals MVP

 

Keep in mind that Jordan was being guarded by Gary Payton in the 1996 Finals, who is only the best defensive guard of the 90s OTHER than Jordan. I know, Bryant went up against a great defensive team, but here's one difference. Those were by far Jordans worst playoffs of his career. For the most part, these were on par or above average numbers for Kobe. That's a BIG difference.

[Real Deal]

Jordan and Kobe both suck. LeBron James is the greatest champion.

[kingfish]

Lets not act like Kobe hasnt put up some ridiculous numbers in the playoffs also alright.

[Nitro]

Jordan's performance in the 1996 NBA finals:

 

27 PPG

41% FG

5.3 RB

4.2 AS

 

Game 6: 5-19, 26% FG, 9 RB – Finals MVP

 

Kobe's 2010 Finals:

29 PPG

41% FG, 32% 3pt FG

8 RB

3.9 AS

 

Game 7: 6-24, 25% FG, 15 RB -- Finals MVP

 

Keep in mind that Jordan was being guarded by Gary Payton in the 1996 Finals, who is only the best defensive guard of the 90s OTHER than Jordan. I know, Bryant went up against a great defensive team, but here's one difference. Those were by far Jordans worst playoffs of his career. For the most part, these were on par or above average numbers for Kobe. That's a BIG difference.

 

This post got me thinking about what each player has done, statistically, in Finals elimination games (i.e games in which they were facing elimination, or had the oppertunity to eliminate their opponent). So, I took 20 minutes, looked up all the game logs, crunched the numbers, and here ya go (eerily enough both played 10 games)...

 

Michael Jordan in Finals elimination games: 10G, 32.0 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 4.7 APG, 2.2 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 3.2 TO, 45.0% FG, 32.0% 3PT, 82.0% FT

 

Kobe Bryant in Finals elimination games: 10G, 23.5 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 3.7 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 2.5 TO, 35.0% FG, 33.0% 3PT, 87.0% FT

[Real Deal]

Why are we doing this again? Jordan had the green light to try and drop 40 a game, every game, because he didn't have to play through the post. Jackson didn't have his thumb on Jordan's head for any of his six rings. Jordan didn't have an older, 30+ PPG scorer demanding the ball in the post...he had Pippen and a ton of shooters that were doing anything Jordan wanted them to do, and doing it to perfection.

 

If we're going to continue this lovefest, it's probably a good idea to consider the roles played by each player first and how teams played them. Otherwise, Wilt owns everyone in NBA history, and is hands down the greatest player to ever live.

[fish7718]

Wilt owns everyone in NBA history, and is hands down the greatest player to ever live.

[Nitro]

Why are we doing this again?

 

It's that time of month

 

Jordan had the green light to try and drop 40 a game, every game, because he didn't have to play through the post. Jackson didn't have his thumb on Jordan's head for any of his six rings. Jordan didn't have an older, 30+ PPG scorer demanding the ball in the post...he had Pippen and a ton of shooters that were doing anything Jordan wanted them to do, and doing it to perfection.

 

All that's fine...but Kobe has had 6 years now as that #1 guy, 3 of those with a crappy supporting cast to boost stats. He's never had one playoff series remotely in the same vicinity as those 6 I posted in the OP (all of which were in a 7 year period, most of them in a 5 year period, some with a 20PPG scorer in Pippen). From volume to efficiency and the combination, it just hasn't happened. In regards to my last post, your arguement would be fine if it wasn't for the massive 10% FG difference between the two (go ahead, bring up Boston and Detroit's defense, it doesn't excuse such horrible efficiency).

 

Also, Kobe took over 20+ shots in 2 of the 3 championship seasons with Shaq, both of those seasons he actually took more FGA's than Shaq. In 2000-2001 Kobe actually accounted for a higher percentage of his team's FGA's (27%) than MJ did in 1990-1991 (26%). As for the playing through the post thing, to be fair MJ WAS the post presence on the Bulls, and Pippen also spent a significant amount of time in the post. And despite, as you always mention, that Kobe was essentially the PG of the 3-peat Lakers, MJ had to share those duties with Pippen (who averaged more assists than anyone Kobe has ever played with in the triangle, minus Payton) yet still managed more assists than Kobe with fewer TO's.

 

I didn't really plan on or want this turning into a Kobe vs MJ thread, so silly me. But I will never, ever see the arguement for Kobe being a better player, beyond being more skilled, which to me is only a fraction of what makes a player better.

[Real Deal]

All that's fine...but Kobe has had 6 years now as that #1 guy, 3 of those with a crappy supporting cast to boost stats.

In other words, just two series without Gasol.

 

He's never had one playoff series remotely in the same vicinity as those 6 I posted in the OP (all of which were in a 7 year period, most of them in a 5 year period, some with a 20PPG scorer in Pippen). From volume to efficiency and the combination, it just hasn't happened. In regards to my last post, your arguement would be fine if it wasn't for the massive 10% FG difference between the two (go ahead, bring up Boston and Detroit's defense, it doesn't excuse such horrible efficiency).

Boston and Detroit's defense (which would be two of the best among those in NBA history) doesn't excuse the poor shooting? So, Kobe just shoots poorly to begin with? Was it the pressure?

 

I've watched enough Jordan to know that no team he EVER played defended him the way Detroit and Boston defended Bryant. None. For one, there was illegal defense in the league at that time, they just didn't call it when teams committed to doubles, and no Youtube video will prove otherwise. I can show anyone a Youtube video of Smush Parker dunking and scoring the ball at will, but it doesn't mean he was amazing for us.

 

What you expect of Bryant is to get to the rim like Jordan did (and, ironically, you put up the numbers Jordan was producing before he turned 30). Bryant already logged almost three full seasons more games at age 30, and he was not driving to the rim in 2007-08. Yeah, he wasn't "shooting" a high FG% because he was shooting, and he was pulling up for jumpers with two guys in his face, taking the most difficult shots in the history of the game.

 

Kobe, with Gasol, at 30 years or older (with 1,000+ games under his belt), is not going to drop 40+ PPG on 50% FG against teams like the Celtics or Magic in the NBA Finals.

 

Jordan wouldn't have, either, especially when he reached that 1,000+ game mark in the 1997 NBA Playoffs, shooting under 43% in nine of his 19 playoff games that season.

 

Dynasty Kobe, and a little beyond the dynasty...you give him Pippen and Grant, all of the shooters...you don't think Kobe has 4-7 game performances of 40+ PPG in the playoffs? Bryant averaged 40+ PPG in a month two or three times in his career (Jordan never did that, only Wilt and Baylor, and only Wilt and Kobe did it more than once). You really don't think Kobe could've done that in a playoff series, or more than one?

 

The comparison isn't fair, at all.

[Nitro]

In other words, just two series without Gasol.

 

Well, since it has become another MJ/Kobe debate, 3.5 regular seasons as well. When MJ had that kind of help, he was giving you 32-37PPG, and multiple seasons with 6-8 assists, 6-8 rebounds and won a DPOY. His all-around game stayed significantly stronger than Kobe's when they were taking 24-27 shots per game (Kobe's defense was awful when his offensive load increased to that level). And those two post-seasons, against a team with Amare and Diaw defending the paint, Kobe could not do the things MJ did (without Pippen) against Bird's Celtics, 2 years in a row, who happened to be one of the greatest defenses of all-time.

 

Boston and Detroit's defense (which would be two of the best among those in NBA history) doesn't excuse the poor shooting? So, Kobe just shoots poorly to begin with? Was it the pressure?

 

I've watched enough Jordan to know that no team he EVER played defended him the way Detroit and Boston defended Bryant. None. For one, there was illegal defense in the league at that time, they just didn't call it when teams committed to doubles, and no Youtube video will prove otherwise. I can show anyone a Youtube video of Smush Parker dunking and scoring the ball at will, but it doesn't mean he was amazing for us.

 

Wade torched the Celtics last post-season, averaging over 30PPG and 50%+ shooting with NO help. LeBron also averaged more points and shot 3% better than Kobe did with less offensive help...and that's just comparing Kobe to his current peers. With no hand-checking, a prime MJ WOULD get into the paint often if he wanted to against the Pistons or Celtics. Whether he finished at a 50% rate can be debated, but the fact of the matter is it is a much higher percentage shot than a fallaway jumper from 22-28ft away. Kobe routinely shoots himself in the foot with his shot selection, and has done so his entire career. Also, MJ was much stronger than Kobe, and would get about 3-7ft deeper on post-ups than Kobe can, which would further help his efficiency.

 

And no team Kobe has ever played defended him the way the Pistons and Knicks did with MJ. Yes, there was less zoning allowed and certain defensive rules not allowed [all the time], but the physicality they used against him is way unlike anything Kobe has faced. The Jordan Rules, which the Pistons and Knicks both used against MJ, was a makeshift zone mixed with football-like physicality. Jordan still shot a % better than Kobe's best years in most of those series', and he NEVER shot like 35% which Kobe shot in that Pistons series.

 

Regardless, the Celtics and Pistons weren't the only teams included in those Finals elimination stats. The Pacers, Sixers, Nets and Magic make up at least half of those games. Still...35% shooting for Kobe. Inexcusable.

 

What you expect of Bryant is to get to the rim like Jordan did (and, ironically, you put up the numbers Jordan was producing before he turned 30). Bryant already logged almost three full seasons more games at age 30, and he was not driving to the rim in 2007-08. Yeah, he wasn't "shooting" a high FG% because he was shooting, and he was pulling up for jumpers with two guys in his face, taking the most difficult shots in the history of the game.

 

Kobe's game has had a consistent baseline his entire career in terms of efficiency, and for the most part his volume scoring/passing/etc... Even when he was in his true physical prime he was not a guy that was getting to the rim extremely often or scoring with impressive efficiency. That's no one's fault but his own, and is a huge reason why he will never be known as a better scorer than MJ. Even the last few seasons Kobe (besides when his knee was [expletive]ed up last year) still has had the athleticism to beat virtually any defender he wants off the dribble, and can finish/draw fouls at the rim. Way too often he settles.

 

Kobe, with Gasol, at 30 years or older (with 1,000+ games under his belt), is not going to drop 40+ PPG on 50% FG against teams like the Celtics or Magic in the NBA Finals.

 

Kobe wasn't going to do it at any point in his career, especially with Gasol, which is my point.

 

Dynasty Kobe, and a little beyond the dynasty...you give him Pippen and Grant, all of the shooters...you don't think Kobe has 4-7 game performances of 40+ PPG in the playoffs? Bryant averaged 40+ PPG in a month two or three times in his career (Jordan never did that, only Wilt and Baylor, and only Wilt and Kobe did it more than once). You really don't think Kobe could've done that in a playoff series, or more than one?

 

Kobe's career best for a post-season series I believe is 33PPG. He has led the Lakers in FGA's for 10 years straight (pretty much all of them well over 20 FGA's per game), and for about 7 of them he has been the undisputed #1 option. He has played in a countless number of series against all kinds of teams...and his career best is around 33PPG for a series. That's Jordan's career post-season average. Jordan eclipsed the 40PPG mark for a series 6x (maybe more), and when he did so he threw in 5-8 assists, 5-10 rebounds, 2+ steals and always over 50% shooting (a percentage Kobe has only met once or twice in his entire post-season career).

 

In other words, no, I don't just assume he could, let alone while maintaining an all-around statline that Kobe has rarely, if ever matched.

[Nitro]

But anyway, I won't bother replying anymore. We know each others' arguements in-and-out, so it's kind of senseless. Tomorrow I'll try and find more crazy, non-Kobe related stats from MJ's career.

[Real Deal]

The point was, you're still comparing the two despite both being in entirely different scenarios at different ages (+3 years on Bryant as well, due to the number of games he played). I just find it very, very hard to believe a prime Kobe wouldn't have dropped a 40+ PPG average on ANY team in the playoffs had he not played alongside Shaq, and that's all that this is about.

 

If he could average 40 in a month TWICE in his career (maybe three times, don't remember), he could average 40 in a playoff series in his prime. Just because he didn't do it against the Suns in just two opportunities (a team that stuck both Raja and Marion on him as much as they possibly could) doesn't mean he couldn't do it without Shaq.

 

Shot attempts?

 

Jordan vs. Miami, 1992: 29.0 FGA per game

Jordan vs. Phoenix, 1993: 33.2 FGA per game

 

The stuff with LeBron and Wade, haha, you're doing it with them as well.

 

Did Jordan average 40 PPG against any team in any series during the second dynasty? He didn't.

 

Jordan eclipsed the 40PPG mark for a series 6x (maybe more), and when he did so he threw in 5-8 assists, 5-10 rebounds, 2+ steals and always over 50% shooting (a percentage Kobe has only met once or twice in his entire post-season career).

Kobe has shot 50% or better in a series more than just once or twice.

 

Kobe's career best for a post-season series I believe is 33PPG

35 PPG against the Kings in 2001, on just 23 FGA per game.

 

He ran off 34 PPG on under 22 FGA against Denver in 2009, and over 34 PPG on 27 shots against the Magic in the Finals.

 

The 33 PPG was on 26 FGA per game, against the Spurs, 2001.

 

He averaged 32 PPG on 26 FGA per game against the Spurs in 2003, and 32 PPG against the Wolves (26 FGA) in 2003.

 

Averaged 33 PPG on 26 FGA against the Suns in 2007, 34 PPG on 23 FGA last season's series.

 

32 PPG on 22 FGA against the Jazz last season, also.

 

Kobe did not shoot over 27 shots in a single playoff game in 2004.

 

Since getting Gasol, Kobe has shot 30+ FGA just five total games in the playoffs.

 

In his first three championship playoff years, Bryant shot 30+ FGA in just four games total, and through his entire career with Shaq, just seven playoff games (1999-2004).

 

Once in the 2006 Playoffs, twice in the 2007 Playoffs (12 total games).

 

He shot over 24 shots just once against Phoenix in 2006, and over 26 FGA just twice against them in 2007.

 

Unlike Jordan, Kobe has never, ever attempted 30 FGA per game in a series.

 

Kobe didn't put up a 40 PPG playoff series average? Cool...it's no wonder why. He wasn't a ballhog.

[Nitro]

Not going to really dive into your post because you know my stance on everything, just a few small things...

 

and over 34 PPG on 27 shots against the Magic in the Finals.

 

False, he averaged 32PPG for that series.

 

Kobe did not shoot over 27 shots in a single playoff game in 2004.

 

He also shot below 39% in 9 of those 22 games, over 50% in only 5.

 

Kobe didn't put up a 40 PPG playoff series average? Cool...it's no wonder why. He wasn't a ballhog.

 

Jordan averaged those points on remarkable efficiency, and was also setting his teammates up with more assists than the majority of Kobe's career. I'd also love to see Kobe ever average 11APG for a series like Jordan did his first trip to the Finals.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Nitro