Crazy Michael Jordan Playoff Stats

[Real Deal]

Kobe wasn't going to average 11 APG in a series, dude. What was he going to do, throw oops to O'Neal all game for an entire series? Again, the triangle ran by Phil was completely different for Kobe and the Lakers. I would hope Jordan could average big assists with who he had around him. LeBron averaged tons of assists with his shooters in Cleveland. Drive and kick. I saw Jordan do it as much as James did...and it was critical in him winning that championship against the Suns (ask Paxson, who is a shooter).

 

Shaq's buckets were not assisted on very many times. It was because the post entry pass allowed the double, and Bryant's ability to draw doubles made that duo one of the greatest of all-time. It would've been remarkable if Bryant averaged anything near 10 assists per game in any month, any playoff series, or any season with Shaq.

 

You watched Michael. You know that is all true. You also know Kobe Bryant wasn't going to drive into the lane with Shaq sleeping in the paint and demanding the ball, just to kick it out to Devean George and Derek Fisher.

 

By the way, in that series against Boston, he averaged nearly 32 FGA per game...just another series he shot over 30 FGA per game in to get that 40+ average.

 

Jordan was allowed to score as much as possible. He was never, ever asked to defer. Those 40's could've been accomplished by Bryant, no doubt about it, had Kobe even decided to attempt 30 shots in a series, let alone 32 and 33. I would love to see Jordan's shot attempts in those other series you posted.

[Real Deal]

At the end of the day, it's not fair to say, "Jordan averaged 40 PPG in a playoff series, Kobe never did" (and that wasn't you from the start, but that's what it became). It's like noting how Wilt averaged 50 in a season, and Jordan never touched it, how Oscar averaged a triple-double, how Kobe put up 81 in a game, even how Barkley doesn't have the amount of rings Gasol has.

 

People argue that Magic is the greatest of all-time. I could show you guys how many bigger assists averages Magic has in all of his playoff series' also, and compare them to Jordan, but it wouldn't make much sense given the roles they had.

 

Phil gives Kobe 30+ shots a night, every night, in the playoffs...and he eats it alive. If he can average 33-35 PPG on 23-25 shots, he can get 40, especially with O'Neal out of the paint and Kobe getting a few more opportunities to attack the rim. Has Jordan ever taken 40+ shots in a playoff game? He sure has. I know for a fact he did it against the Suns.

 

It makes zero sense to throw statements out there that relate the two in that manner. Not much more to say, really.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't bring Kobe into the debate, and I was hoping nobody else would...which is why I decided to stay out of the topic to see where it would go.

 

My opinion, as always: Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game, Jordan is the greatest ever.

[Nitro]

Just one thing regarding MJ's 11APG average in the Finals...it wasn't like he had such amazing 3pt shooters that series. That post-season Paxson was 2-14 from 3, BJ Armstrong was 3-5, and Pippen was 4-17. The only 2 players to get it going from long distance that post season was Craig Hodges (11-28) and MJ himself (10-26). And MJ was still playing within the confines of the triangle, scored over 28 each of those games, shot over 52% 4 of those 5 games, grabbed over 7 boards in 3 of those games, over 2 steals in 4 of those games, and over 2 blocks in 3 of those games. Young Pippen, Paxson, Armstrong, Grant and Cartwright, in the triangle, isn't the easiest cast to rack up 11APG with, let alone with all the other heavy lifting MJ was doing. I don't think, if you replaced Rondo with Paxson and Pierce with Kobe, that Kobe could even do that with the current Celtics team.

 

My opinion, as always: Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game, Jordan is the greatest ever.

 

That's always going to be the main problem with your arguement. I know you believe Kobe, individually, is the greatest to play the game, but on the basis that he's more skilled I think is a very flawed arguement. Even though Shaq gets criminally underrated in terms of just how skilled he was, there have been a number of big men that have been more skilled than he was. Still, it didn't matter, as he was so physically dominant and was so good at what he did do that it negated all that. With the MJ/Kobe debate that skill difference is a whole lot closer, but MJ was clearly a more physically dominant player, and what he was truly great at was harder to stop and more efficient than Kobe's key strengths. The stats, no matter how you twist them, are strongly in MJ's favor. Then it becomes and arguement of, "Well, if Kobe had this, or Kobe did that..." which provides no tangible proof or reason against a guy who did those things many, many times.

[Real Deal]

I know you believe Kobe, individually, is the greatest to play the game, but on the basis that he's more skilled I think is a very flawed arguement.

But I will never, ever see the arguement for Kobe being a better player, beyond being more skilled, which to me is only a fraction of what makes a player better.

[Nitro]

That's my point. I said I don't think Kobe is a better player, just possibly more skilled. Using just that factor in the arguement that he is the better player, individually, I think is a flawed arguement.

[Real Deal]

I'm not even sure why you stated I believe Kobe is the greatest. You even quoted my post where I said Jordan was before you stated that.

 

Greatness includes accomplishments, on a team and individual level. The abilities of a player (skill level, overall play) doesn't take into factor how many NBA championships that player has, or how many MVP awards the media gave him. Those are two different things.

 

Kobe is the most skilled, Jordan is the greatest. Throwing Bryant under the bus for not averaging 40 PPG in a playoff series is unfair due to having far less of an opportunity to score those baskets to begin with. Jordan's shot attempts tell the story. If Kobe was averaging 30+ FGA a series even once, let alone multiple times, you'd have reason to brag about Jordan's 40s when comparing the two players...but he never did that.

 

It all goes back to the two different months that Kobe averaged 40+ PPG, something Jordan never did in his entire career. If Bryant could average that in a month's worth of shooting 30+ shots a game (and probably less, won't bother checking), I don't see how you can say he wouldn't have done that if given the green light to obliterate teams back in the first dynasty. Even against Phoenix in 2006 or 2007, who you consider a terrible defensive team (despite who they were sticking on Bryant)...had he decided he was going to average 40 against them, please...he could've. When he decided he wanted to outscore Dallas, he did...when he wanted to cremate the Raptors and come back down 20+ in that game, he did by dropping 81.

 

There's nothing anyone can say that would make me believe Bryant couldn't have dropped a 40-point average against multiple teams in the playoffs. Jordan got to the line, but so did Bryant, and the one thing Kobe had that Jordan didn't for most of those series? Threes.

 

Stick Shaq in there with Jordan...maybe Jordan doesn't retire, and he wins eight rings...cool. But, you don't see Jordan rolling out 40-point averages, either...not with a prime Shaq in the post, and not with Phil instructing Jordan to play through him.

[Nitro]

I'm not even sure why you stated I believe Kobe is the greatest. You even quoted my post where I said Jordan was before you stated that.

 

Greatness includes accomplishments, on a team and individual level. The abilities of a player (skill level, overall play) doesn't take into factor how many NBA championships that player has, or how many MVP awards the media gave him. Those are two different things.

 

I meant to say you think Kobe is the better player, period. That's why I included the word individually, but that was my fault. I meant to say, accolades aside, that you think Kobe is the better player.

 

Kobe is the most skilled, Jordan is the greatest. Throwing Bryant under the bus for not averaging 40 PPG in a playoff series is unfair due to having far less of an opportunity to score those baskets to begin with. Jordan's shot attempts tell the story. If Kobe was averaging 30+ FGA a series even once, let alone multiple times, you'd have reason to brag about Jordan's 40s when comparing the two players...but he never did that.

 

I'm not throwing Kobe under the bus, I just don't think there's enough to say without a doubt he could have averaged 40PPG for a series, let alone 5x in a 5 year period, regardless of teammates or system. And besides the 40PPG, I can say with 100% certainty that Kobe would not have been throwing in 6-8 assists, 6-10 rebounds, 2-3 steals and 1-2 blocks like MJ was in those series'. Put Kobe in any offensive system and that would not change. And I am also 100% sure Kobe would never average 11 assists for a series, let alone with 30+ points.

 

It all goes back to the two different months that Kobe averaged 40+ PPG, something Jordan never did in his entire career. If Bryant could average that in a month's worth of shooting 30+ shots a game (and probably less, won't bother checking), I don't see how you can say he wouldn't have done that if given the green light to obliterate teams back in the first dynasty. Even against Phoenix in 2006 or 2007, who you consider a terrible defensive team (despite who they were sticking on Bryant)...had he decided he was going to average 40 against them, please...he could've. When he decided he wanted to outscore Dallas, he did...when he wanted to cremate the Raptors and come back down 20+ in that game, he did by dropping 81.

 

Playoffs are different than regular season. There is a lot more defensive energy, a slower pace, and coaches and players have much more indepth gameplanning. Kobe actually averaged 43PPG against Phoenix in 2005-2006 for the season series on strong efficiency, but in the post-season he did not even crack 30PPG (despite having a 50pt game outburst in Game 6).

 

And in this NBA, individual defenders on the wings have little value against superstars when the team defense is garbage. Raja and Marion could not stay in front of prime Kobe consistently without handchecking, and Amare and Diaw aren't scaring anyone around the paint. If there was ever an oppertunity for Kobe to put up ridiculous scoring numbers in a series, that was the ideal situation. He had the crappy offensive cast, he was in his absolute prime, and he was facing a poor defensive team.

 

Jordan got to the line, but so did Bryant, and the one thing Kobe had that Jordan didn't for most of those series? Threes.

 

Jordan's career post-season average from 3 is only .5% worse than Kobe's. Meanwhile, Jordan shot 5% better from the field, and 2% better from the FT line. Besides the FT part, it's the same situation when I posted those Finals elimination game stats.

 

Stick Shaq in there with Jordan...maybe Jordan doesn't retire, and he wins eight rings...cool. But, you don't see Jordan rolling out 40-point averages, either...not with a prime Shaq in the post, and not with Phil instructing Jordan to play through him.

 

That's fine, forget the Shaq years...Kobe still hasn't averaged more than 33PPG for a series (MJ's career average) in the 6 years and countless series' since, and only once has he ever had a post-season where he's matched MJ's career post-season shooting percentage. If you want to bring age into it, at 34 years old MJ averaged 37.3PPG/5.3APG/5.8RPG on 57.0% shooting in a series against the Bullets. At age 35, he averaged 36.3PPG on 53.0% shooting against the Nets in a playoff series. That same post-season he averaged 32.0PPG/4.1APG/5.7RPG on 47.0% shooting against the Pacers.

 

And give MJ Shaq, and I PROMISE you he shoots over 45% from the field more than once in 7 post-seasons, which Kobe didn't. I PROMISE you he averages more than 5APG in at least half of those post-seasons, which Kobe did not. I PROMISE you MJ gives you over 2SPG and over 1BPG through those 7 post-seasons, which Kobe did not. Give MJ full PG duties and still the ability to take 20+ shot attempts and his all-around stats would have been very similar to '88-'89 when he averaged 33/8/8/3 on 54% shooting.

[Real Deal]

I PROMISE you he averages more than 5APG in at least half of those post-seasons, which Kobe did not.

Bryant did it 3 of 5 times with Shaq since 1999-2000, and 4 of 5 times post-Shaq. He's done that 7 of his last 10 post-seasons, dating back to that first championship season...

[AboveLegit]

Kobe's performances while great, still pale in comparison to the best of Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, and Duncan. The only Kobe GAME that even compares is Game 4 of the 2001 Western Semis vs. Sacramento. If you want to make an argument, that's the game you should point to.

 

I really don't think that Kobe's performance in the 2009 Finals was all that impressive, at least compared to the Finals performances of the players he's up against historically. Was Kobe's 2009 Finals better than Rick Barry's 1975 Finals? Hell yeah. Was it better than Dennis Johnson's 1979 Finals? Of course. But is it better than MJ's 1993 Finals? No. Bird's 1986 Finals? No. Magic's 1987 Finals? No. And that's my point. That Orlando team was a perfect matchup for him because they had terrible wing defenders that didn't have the size to guard him. Look at what happened to them against Cleveland.

 

At the end of the day, Kobe is a great player, an awesome player, one of the all-time greats, a great competitor, dominant at times, but he lacks a certain level of transcendence, something just indescribably awesome about his game that separates him from everyone else. If you broke down the All-Time great list into tiers, I think it would look like this:

 

1. Jordan

2. Kareem, Russell, Magic

3. Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Moses, Wilt

 

It's pretty clear to me at this point Kobe is going to eventually pass everyone in Tier 3 when he decides to hang it up whether he wins another title or not. Bird's holding a slight edge in my opinion over Shaq and Duncan but I'm not even sure that holds up. You could make an argument for either guy over him at this point.

[Nitro]

Bryant did it 3 of 5 times with Shaq since 1999-2000, and 4 of 5 times post-Shaq. He's done that 7 of his last 10 post-seasons, dating back to that first championship season...

 

Jordan did it 8 of 9 times before his first retirement, 6 of those he was over 6 assists (something Kobe's done only once in 13 tries), 3 of over 7 assists (Kobe's never done that). My point stands.

[Real Deal]

Jordan did it 8 of 9 times before his first retirement, 6 of those he was over 6 assists (something Kobe's done only once in 13 tries), 3 of over 7 assists (Kobe's never done that). My point stands.

LOL, I was correcting what you said. I don't need another dose of Jordan statistics. As I stated earlier, I don't hand out Wilt numbers. Shaq caught the ball in the post, worked out of it and passed to open players, and that's why he was one of the best passing centers in the game. Gasol does the same. It's the post triangle, five able-bodied passers with spacing at 12-15 feet for that very reason. Chicago ran the reverse triangle. Bryant only had two tries (12 games total, actually) to do what Jordan did.

 

If I didn't like MJ so much, I would hate his guts for the way people throw his numbers around as if he was perfect, yet ignore a lot of his second three-peat, where his shooting hit the low 40s and he wasn't racking up the numbers he was in the late 80s in any major statistical category, despite winning three more rings and two more season MVPs.

 

You expect Kobe Bryant to accomplish what Jordan did, and do it in just 12 games. That's the only comparison you have between the two when it comes to their roles and their direction on a team, and even then, Phil Jackson was forcing Bryant to give the ball up to Odom and Kwame down low (which failed miserably, and Kobe showed his displeasure over this many times, including Game 7 against the Suns in 2006). Even in the second dynasty, Jordan never had sole responsibility of facilitating the triangle offense like Bryant does, and unfortunately, facilitating in the triangle doesn't translate into assists when you're running the ball through the post and not looking for your own 50% of the time.

 

As always, I'm done talking about Mike. There never seems to be a reason to talk about him if it doesn't involve Kobe anyway.

[Nitro]

LOL, I was correcting what you said.

 

No you weren't, you just gave a smaller sample size. If you include Kobe's early seasons, he averaged 5APG or more in 3 of 7 post-seasons. If you use only after the championship run started, MJ's assist numbers are still vastly superior in the post-season, so the point is moot in this debate.

 

I don't need another dose of Jordan statistics. As I stated earlier, I don't hand out Wilt numbers. Shaq caught the ball in the post, worked out of it and passed to open players, and that's why he was one of the best passing centers in the game. Gasol does the same. It's the post triangle, five able-bodied passers with spacing at 12-15 feet for that very reason. Chicago ran the reverse triangle. Bryant only had two tries (12 games total, actually) to do what Jordan did.

 

They ran both, and both teams gave ample amounts of iso plays for both Kobe and Jordan, and also PnR oppertunities. To discount a career worth of stats because they weren't in EXACTLY the same offense is ridiculous, and would nullify any player comparisons.

 

If I didn't like MJ so much, I would hate his guts for the way people throw his numbers around as if he was perfect, yet ignore a lot of his second three-peat, where his shooting hit the low 40s and he wasn't racking up the numbers he was in the late 80s in any major statistical category, despite winning three more rings and two more season MVPs.

 

Of course he wasn't putting up the same stats in the 2nd 3-peat, he was in his mid-30's. Kobe, because he's always relied so heavily on his outside game, has only dropped off a little bit statistically. However, because his shot selection was so poor for his prime, his peak wasn't as dominant or impressive in any fashion as MJ's was (efficiency a lot moreso than volume). It also didn't help that when Kobe was expected to carry that same load as MJ did before Pippen/when Pippen was young, his defense fell off big-time (even if he got a few undeserved First Team All-Defense selections) while MJ's was arguably the best in the league.

 

And if you want to dissect each's game, I'll go ahead and do that too, but this whole topic was based around stats so I ran with it.

 

You expect Kobe Bryant to accomplish what Jordan did, and do it in just 12 games. That's the only comparison you have between the two when it comes to their roles and their direction on a team, and even then, Phil Jackson was forcing Bryant to give the ball up to Odom and Kwame down low (which failed miserably, and Kobe showed his displeasure over this many times, including Game 7 against the Suns in 2006). Even in the second dynasty, Jordan never had sole responsibility of facilitating the triangle offense like Bryant does, and unfortunately, facilitating in the triangle doesn't translate into assists when you're running the ball through the post and not looking for your own 50% of the time.

 

When Kobe played out of the triangle he coughed the ball up nearly 4.5x per game, and even if he kept the same 7APG pace he was going at in the beginning of that season, his AST:TO ratio wouldn't have been nearly as impressive when Mike was pretty much a full-time PG averaging 33/8/8 on 53% shooting. Even though we can debate who was the better passer, MJ is the guy you'd trust more with being the primary playmaker since he was always more careful with the ball throughout his career than Kobe.

 

And as I said, regardless of the system and realistic teammates, there is no way Kobe averages over 11 assists in a series unless he is scoring about 10PPG, let alone 30PPG. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe has never had a 5 game streak, in the regular season or post-season, where he averaged 11APG. MJ did it in the Finals.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

No you weren't, you just gave a smaller sample size. If you include Kobe's early seasons, he averaged 5APG or more in 3 of 7 post-seasons.

If I included Kobe's earlier seasons, he did it in over half of his playoff runs...correcting what you said earlier, when you said Bryant didn't.

 

 

It's obvious who's making the comparisons. Is this to make Jordan look even better than he really was? LeBron's 35/9/7 on 51% FG is just as good as any of Jordan's playoff runs that went over one series, but I doubt anyone even cares to talk about that, especially since Jordan stopped shooting 50% or better in a post-season after 1991 (which, if this were Bryant, would definitely be something to note because efficiency means everything).

 

Hey, we know, Jordan is the GOAT. He's the GOAT of all who could be considered the GOAT. He's a basketball god. I'm not sure what you're wanting to hear that you have yet to hear for years.

[Guest The REAL STL10]

Jordan > Anyone

 

Wilt played against 6 foot 5 in centers.

 

He was GREAT, but only the best of his era...

[Real Deal]

Jordan > Anyone

 

Wilt played against 6 foot 5 in centers.

 

He was GREAT, but only the best of his era...

And Jordan played in an era where about 35 other two-guards shot 50% or better from the floor in a season, so his efficiency was overrated back then.

 

We can play that same game over and over again.

[Nitro]

If I included Kobe's earlier seasons, he did it in over half of his playoff runs...correcting what you said earlier, when you said Bryant didn't.

 

 

No, we were discussing what MJ would have done with Shaq. With Shaq, Kobe played in *8* post-seasons, *3* of them averaging 5APG or more. 3/8 does not equal 1/2.

 

It's obvious who's making the comparisons. Is this to make Jordan look even better than he really was? LeBron's 35/9/7 on 51% FG is just as good as any of Jordan's playoff runs that went over one series, but I doubt anyone even cares to talk about that, especially since Jordan stopped shooting 50% or better in a post-season after 1991 (which, if this were Bryant, would definitely be something to note because efficiency means everything).

 

LeBron's post-season in 2009 was AMAZING, and that Orlando series was one of the most dominant I've ever seen from an individual player. Not sure what it has to do with Kobe and MJ, but yes, LeBron so far has been an awesome post-season performer. If he had the help that Kobe and MJ had, even if it was just Gasol, and he won a ring or two, he'd definitely start to be in the discussion for GOAT.

 

And as for the Jordan not shooting over 50% after '91, he shot 49.9% from the field, 39% from 3 in the '92 post-season. The 49.9% from the field would be the best in Kobe's career, and the 39% would be 3rd best in Kobe's career...keep in mind Kobe has played in 13 post-seasons. In '93 he shot 47.5% from the field (would be 3rd best in Kobe's career), and 39% from 3 once again.

 

Hey, we know, Jordan is the GOAT. He's the GOAT of all who could be considered the GOAT. He's a basketball god. I'm not sure what you're wanting to hear that you have yet to hear for years.

 

It just really, really bothers me when people think Kobe has ever been a better basketball player than prime MJ, plain and simple.

[Guest The REAL STL10]

And Jordan played in an era where about 35 other two-guards shot 50% or better from the floor in a season, so his efficiency was overrated back then.

 

We can play that same game over and over again.

 

Yet you still discount the Wilt played against Centers with a 5-6 inch size advantage.

 

 

Don't forget the great two guards Jordan played with in his era like Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, John Starks, John Hornacek, Joe Dumars, and several others...

 

 

Jordan > Everyone Else

[Guest The REAL STL10]

No, we were discussing what MJ would have done with Shaq. With Shaq, Kobe played in *8* post-seasons, *3* of them averaging 5APG or more. 3/8 does not equal 1/2.

 

 

 

LeBron's post-season in 2009 was AMAZING, and that Orlando series was one of the most dominant I've ever seen from an individual player. Not sure what it has to do with Kobe and MJ, but yes, LeBron so far has been an awesome post-season performer. If he had the help that Kobe and MJ had, even if it was just Gasol, and he won a ring or two, he'd definitely start to be in the discussion for GOAT.

 

And as for the Jordan not shooting over 50% after '91, he shot 49.9% from the field, 39% from 3 in the '92 post-season. The 49.9% from the field would be the best in Kobe's career, and the 39% would be 3rd best in Kobe's career...keep in mind Kobe has played in 13 post-seasons. In '93 he shot 47.5% from the field (would be 3rd best in Kobe's career), and 39% from 3 once again.

 

 

 

It just really, really bothers me when people think Kobe has ever been a better basketball player than prime MJ, plain and simple.

 

Too bad Real Deal thinks Wilt is the best LMAO

 

What a joke...

Edited November 10, 2010 by The REAL STL10

[Real Deal]

And as for the Jordan not shooting over 50% after '91, he shot 49.9% from the field, 39% from 3 in the '92 post-season. The 49.9% from the field would be the best in Kobe's career, and the 39% would be 3rd best in Kobe's career...keep in mind Kobe has played in 13 post-seasons. In '93 he shot 47.5% from the field (would be 3rd best in Kobe's career), and 39% from 3 once again.

What I said had nothing to do with Kobe. I was wondering if you'd actually say something remotely negative about Jordan not shooting 50% or better in a post-season after 1991, but instead, you compare it to Kobe once again.

 

I'm not surprised. Jordan is so perfect, lol.

 

"Jordan didn't do THAT well in the last two or three Finals he played in..."

 

"Yeah, but Kobe this, Kobe that..."

 

Have you ever said anything bad about Jordan? Serious question.

[Real Deal]

Too bad Real Deal thinks Wilt is the best LMAO

 

What a joke...

I never said Wilt was the best. I stated in this topic TWO TIMES (because you don't pay attention, which is why most want you gone from here) that Jordan was the GOAT, and that Kobe was the most skilled player.

 

I said that, using your logic, or just simply using stats, Wilt trumps Jordan and everyone else.

 

Read, or just don't bother replying, dude.

[Real Deal]

Isn't this what you said Real Deal?

 

Trying to take back what you said...?

Did you not read the line before that sentence? Weird, dude...lol.

[Guest The REAL STL10]

Wilt owns everyone in NBA history, and is hands down the greatest player to ever live.

 

 

 

[Real Deal]

You're so smart!

[Nitro]

What I said had nothing to do with Kobe. I was wondering if you'd actually say something remotely negative about Jordan not shooting 50% or better in a post-season after 1991, but instead, you compare it to Kobe once again.

 

I'm not surprised. Jordan is so perfect, lol.

 

"Jordan didn't do THAT well in the last two or three Finals he played in..."

 

"Yeah, but Kobe this, Kobe that..."

 

Have you ever said anything bad about Jordan? Serious question.

 

What you said had nothing to do with Kobe?...

 

especially since Jordan stopped shooting 50% or better in a post-season after 1991 (which, if this were Bryant, would definitely be something to note because efficiency means everything).

 

And we are discussing MJ vs. Kobe, so of course I am going to bring Kobe into it. You bring up MJ shooting 49.9% and 47.5% from the field his last 2 post-seasons in the first 3-peat, but if it is not to prop up Kobe, then I see no use of bringing it into the discussion.

 

As for me saying anything bad about MJ, of course I won't when I am defending him against [insert any player in NBA history]. If you wanted to know, my major gripes with MJ are how he would literally break a teammate's spirit when before Phil came along to the point where they would be rendered useless, he would sometimes have too strong a vice grip on the team's play style (similar to Kobe jacking up 30+ shots when he's cold, or LeBron refusing to play off-ball), and sometimes he would just try to force too much instead of letting the game come to him. Also, at the tail-end of his Bulls career, he would sometimes settle a bit too much with his fadeaway off the mid-post instead of taking it to the rim. Other than that, besides maybe his 3pt shooting early in his career, and there's not a whole lot to really harp on the guy about.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

In other words, I wasn't trying to compare the two. I was looking to see if you'd have anything to say about it without bringing up Bryant, but you didn't.

 

Layman's terms, there are many things to say about Jordan in a positive light, but there are things I can dip into that show he wasn't invincible. However, it seems like, when I say anything in that manner, Bryant is brought up. Jordan's second dynasty Finals performances? Well, look at Kobe's! Wait, 35 other SGs shot 50% or better while Jordan played, and only 4-5 have with Kobe playing? No big deal, because Kobe never did to begin with! Jordan took 30+ FGA per series 3+ times in his career (probably more) to average those 40s, and Kobe never did? Well, Kobe could've!

 

Role reversal, you'd see where I'm coming from.