Is Carmelo Anthony the NBA’s premier last-second shot maker?

[Real Deal]

Most of the ones he has missed have been due to doubles as well. That was the point.

 

Fact remains, nobody defends anyone like they do Bryant in the closing seconds of the game. Sorry.

[Nitro]

C'mon, Laker fans...that's such a cop-out. As I've defended in this thread, I feel Kobe is the best last-second shot maker in the league, but you can't justify taking contested 3 pointers over double/triple teams. If you do not give those role players the opportunity to get comfortable in those situations to hit clutch shots, they will never attain that skill. It's like saying Kobe should have never been passed the ball in clutch situations after he threw up airball after airball against Utah in the playoffs when he was around 19. Without that experience, and without future situations where he was given the opportunity to hit clutch shots, he would have never developed into the clutch player he is today. The same goes for his teammates. In fact, that's one of Phil's main philosophies, to give the players the opportunity to play through diversity and struggle...but the key is you have to give them that opportunity.

 

Basically, if it isn't the correct basketball play for Kobe to take contested fadeaway 3 pointers over double teams in the 1st quarter, then it isn't the correct play to make in the 4th quarter. Just because he has the uncanny ability to make the play maybe twice in every 10 tries doesn't make it right.

[Real Deal]

Doesn't mean anything, dude, because it's been proven over and over again that Kobe and Fisher are the only two clutch players over the last 15 seasons. Even Horry was choking at the end of games, hit a memorable shot or two for us and, suddenly, he's a clutch god.

 

Kobe was 18 when he took those jumpers, in his rookie season, his first playoff run. Odom isn't a rookie. Neither is Walton. Those attempts don't compare.

 

Just because he has the uncanny ability to make the play maybe twice in every 10 tries doesn't make it right.

That's actually inaccurate. Just because 82games says he hits on 25% of his tries (or whatever the number is) doesn't mean they are correct, because they take into account other shots that aren't necessarily game-winning attempts.

 

It would be nice if I went back for about six or seven seasons, found all missed game-winners, and see what the stat really is. Bryant doesn't miss eight of those before he makes two. I can't even recall where he missed two or three last year, even though he made six (seven, actually).

[Guest STL10]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqcgy6xLrEM&playnext=1&list=PL863549C6F3446516&index=2

 

Not so clutch here...

 

Still the best currently in the NBA though.

[Real Deal]

LMAO, here we go again with this BS.

 

Let me go find an MJ screw-up, like when he lost the ball to Nick Anderson, and we'll talk about how bad of a player he was at that time, due to one screw-up.

 

[Real Deal]

Might as well end the convo now, before Jordan makes me throw up in my mouth again.

 

Jordan > all. Perfect player, never did anything wrong, and NOBODY in the NBA will ever come close to him, today or 200 years from now, because he's so [expletive]ing awesome!

 

Two pages of worthless discussion. No way I'm going to dip into a third page.

[Guest STL10]

LMAO, here we go again with this BS.

 

Let me go find an MJ screw-up, like when he lost the ball to Nick Anderson, and we'll talk about how bad of a player he was at that time, due to one screw-up.

 

 

I just posted the vid to semi-backup Multi's opinion.

 

Don't get mad because I posted it as a joke...

[Nitro]

Doesn't mean anything, dude, because it's been proven over and over again that Kobe and Fisher are the only two clutch players over the last 15 seasons.

 

That's a gross overstatement. Stop.

 

That's actually inaccurate. Just because 82games says he hits on 25% of his tries (or whatever the number is) doesn't mean they are correct, because they take into account other shots that aren't necessarily game-winning attempts.

 

I wasn't referencing any stat. Kobe ain't hitting a contested fadeaway from long range over a double team more than 2 out of every 10 tries. Even if Odom has airballed a potential GW 3 in the past or Walton has missed some wide open shots in clutch situations, they are who the ball should be fed to as long as Kobe is being doubled 25ft out and they are wide open. Even if they miss yet again, that is the only way you can develop their abilities and confidence in clutch situations. That is one way how you can make your teammates better, and Jackson uses that principle in plenty of his coaching techniques (for example refusing to call timeouts when his team is struggling). Eventually, if you keep feeding teammates in clutch situations, they will develop a positive mentality when those opportunities arise, and that's how clutch role players are made.

 

As I said before, if it isn't the correct basketball play in the first quarter, it isn't the correct play in the 4th quarter.

[Real Deal]

That's a gross overstatement. Stop.

Only two for the Lakers.

 

I wasn't referencing any stat. Kobe ain't hitting a contested fadeaway from long range over a double team more than 2 out of every 10 tries. Even if Odom has airballed a potential GW 3 in the past or Walton has missed some wide open shots in clutch situations, they are who the ball should be fed to as long as Kobe is being doubled 25ft out and they are wide open. Even if they miss yet again, that is the only way you can develop their abilities and confidence in clutch situations. That is one way how you can make your teammates better, and Jackson uses that principle in plenty of his coaching techniques (for example refusing to call timeouts when his team is struggling). Eventually, if you keep feeding teammates in clutch situations, they will develop a positive mentality when those opportunities arise, and that's how clutch role players are made.

 

As I said before, if it isn't the correct basketball play in the first quarter, it isn't the correct play in the 4th quarter.

Tell that to Phil, then. He has declined them the ball plenty of times late in games. He has pulled both Gasol and Odom before, keeping Bryant in with a few three-point shooters (despite Odom hitting a three every now and then). The last game-winning shot Gasol attempted (not counting his put-back against the Thunder), it was a long three from the top of the key, and it was a brick. Phil will never run that play again.

[Nitro]

Tell that to Phil, then. He has declined them the ball plenty of times late in games. He has pulled both Gasol and Odom before, keeping Bryant in with a few three-point shooters (despite Odom hitting a three every now and then). The last game-winning shot Gasol attempted (not counting his put-back against the Thunder), it was a long three from the top of the key, and it was a brick. Phil will never run that play again.

 

If Phil, or anyone, believes a contested fadeaway from 25ft out over a double team is a better basketball play than passing it to wide open role players who have proven they are good enough to be intregral pieces on championship teams...well, that's plain stupid.

[Real Deal]

If Phil, or anyone, believes a contested fadeaway from 25ft out over a double team is a better basketball play than passing it to wide open role players who have proven they are good enough to be intregral pieces on championship teams...well, that's plain stupid.

Not all players can hit clutch shots. If Shaq was wide-open from 16 feet out, do you kick it to him? Gasol shot a three to try and win the game...was that smart?

 

We've lost two games this year trusting Artest with a last-second shot that he has screwed up, one he barely got off because he has to dribble first, the other he bricked. He was a major piece to our championship run last year. Do we trust in him again and again until he makes the shot? No.

 

I've seen enough of this team to know who should be shooting the ball in the clutch, open or not. Vujacic can make two clutch free throws, but he's never going to get a wide-open three for a win because he has missed two already.

 

Bryant has trusted almost every half-ass shooter on the roster, and none of them have come through. There's no point in trying to develop their clutch because we have enough of that in Kobe and Fisher. They should spend more time developing their overall game, so we don't have to continue crossing our fingers for game-winners in the first place.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Most of the ones he has missed have been due to doubles as well. That was the point.

 

Fact remains, nobody defends anyone like they do Bryant in the closing seconds of the game. Sorry.

 

Yep if he's missing those that he was double teamed, and a large percentage of his game winners were the ones when he was singly-defended, then Kobe is not this super human that "buried game winners while being defended by 2-3 people"... or sometimes according to a normal Laker fan like Lkr, "the ENTIRE team" lol...

 

You represent the majority of Laker fans who say Kobe is the greatest in the clutch because:

- He has most game winners than anyone in NBA history (out of gazillion attempts in his career in 15 years... the last three tries against Pacers and Rockets were not successful... but of course people only remember the makes)

- He ALWAYS gets double/ triple teamed in ALL those game winners... (myth). I bet not even 30% of his game winners were double/ triple teamed.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Multi-Billionaire

[Real Deal]

Yep if he's missing those that he was double teamed, and a large percentage of his game winners were the ones when he was singly-defended, then Kobe is not this super human that "buried game winners while being defended by 2-3 people"... or sometimes according to a normal Laker fan like Lkr, "the ENTIRE team" lol...

 

You represent the majority of Laker fans who say Kobe is the greatest in the clutch because:

- He has most game winners than anyone in NBA history (out of gazillion attempts in his career in 15 years... the last three tries against Pacers and Rockets were not successful... but of course people only remember the makes)

- He ALWAYS gets double/ triple teamed in ALL those game winners... (myth). I bet not even 30% of his game winners were double/ triple teamed.

So, do you have any evidence that Melo has made even one (I would like to see two, actually) over a double? Just curious.

 

Here's some help: http://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/melo_winners_11_27_2010.html

 

None there. YT'ed all of those shots.

[Nitro]

Not all players can hit clutch shots. If Shaq was wide-open from 16 feet out, do you kick it to him? Gasol shot a three to try and win the game...was that smart?

 

You know I'm not talking about obvious situations like that. But yes, if Odom (or Brown, Sasha, Artest, etc...) is open for 3 and Kobe is double teamed 25ft out, Odom should be taking the shot. If Gasol is open in the midrange, he should be taking the shot. If it is the correct basketball play in the 1st quarter, it is the correct basketball play in the 4th. I believe that the last play should always be drawn up for Kobe, but if a situation arises where he is doubled and has an open teammate who is within his shooting range, the correct play is to give that player the ball. And the only way to build a clutch role player, besides the very rare few who have that "clutch" gene, is to let them build from their failures and gain confidence in those situations. Only way that happens is if Kobe (or any superstar) makes the correct play in the clutch and gives them the ball when they are open within their shooting range. That's how you make your teammates better.

 

We've lost two games this year trusting Artest with a last-second shot that he has screwed up, one he barely got off because he has to dribble first, the other he bricked. He was a major piece to our championship run last year. Do we trust in him again and again until he makes the shot? No.

 

I've seen enough of this team to know who should be shooting the ball in the clutch, open or not. Vujacic can make two clutch free throws, but he's never going to get a wide-open three for a win because he has missed two already.

 

Bryant has trusted almost every half-[expletive] shooter on the roster, and none of them have come through. There's no point in trying to develop their clutch because we have enough of that in Kobe and Fisher. They should spend more time developing their overall game, so we don't have to continue crossing our fingers for game-winners in the first place.

 

You keep mentioning what other players have done in those situations this year, but what has Kobe done? He's missed a number of clutch shots this situations in the last few games, probably more than all those other players combined. One of Kobe's issues is that he freezes teammates out in the final few minutes by trying to take over, especially when the Lakers are down. It looks awesome when he is able to make those shots, but when he's not on it throws the entire team off its rythym. When that happens, it isn't exactly surprising to see the role players miss when they do get the opportunity.

 

Don't get me wrong, MJ had a similar problem, especially early in his career, but you can't justify Kobe OR MJ taking contested fadeaways from deep in clutch situations when their teammates are wide open (unless it's a ridiculous situation like Gasol being open from 3 or Shaq from 16ft out). It's ridiculous to justify that.

[Real Deal]

You keep mentioning what other players have done in those situations this year

Actually, I gave you examples of players who have sucked in the clutch since the dynasty, from Cook and George to Smush and Walton (all pre-Gasol). Odom a few times, Vujacic a couple, Gasol two (aside from the o-board and put-back)...I'm not sure what else you're wanting to talk about.

 

At the end of the night, I will live with Kobe taking the 25-footer (like he did on Wade, Ruben Patterson, and two Toronto players, among others) versus letting Odom shoot a wide-open 20-footer. A first-quarter bucket is not the same as a game-winner. The situation is much, much different. The pressure is ten-fold. I know you said you've played basketball before, so you should know that. Two free throws in the first quarter are cake. Two free throws when you're down two, one second left? Not even close to being the same.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Going back to the topic, is about Melo being the best last second shot maker.

 

 

My argument why this is the case is:

1.) Melo has 14 game winners under his belt and this is his 8th season. Did Kobe (in his 15th season now) have 14 game winners by his 8th season (03-04)? You can look it up, I bet the answer is NO.

 

2.) It took Kobe 4 seasons until he hit his first game winner against Suns Game 2 in 2000 playoffs... in comparison, it took Melo just 25 games in his rookie year to get one (vs. Sonics).

 

3.) Melo's 45.5 FG% in clutch situations is the best

Anthony has made 15-of-33 shots (.455) that have either tied a game or given his team the lead in the final 10 seconds of the fourth quarter/overtime. The Elias Sports Bureau determined that Anthony’s 45 percent last-second shot success rate is the highest of any player with a minimum of 20 attempts since the star forward came into the league seven years ago.

 

 

Is Kobe's clutch percentage in 15 seasons the same/ higher than Melo's? How about his clutch percentage by his 8th season... is it 45.5% or higher? I doubt it.

[Nitro]

At the end of the night, I will live with Kobe taking the 25-footer (like he did on Wade, Ruben Patterson, and two Toronto players, among others) versus letting Odom shoot a wide-open 20-footer. A first-quarter bucket is not the same as a game-winner. The situation is much, much different. The pressure is ten-fold. I know you said you've played basketball before, so you should know that. Two free throws in the first quarter are cake. Two free throws when you're down two, one second left? Not even close to being the same.

 

I understand that a 1st quarter shot attempt is not the same as a shot attempt in a clutch situation in the 4th, but a Kobe 25ft fadeaway over a double team is never going to be more efficient than a 20% success rate TOPS. Even factoring in the "choke" factor of certain players, I trust they can make those wide open shots at a clip better than 20% in those situations (as long as they are within their range). They are NBA players for a reason. And let's say they fail in those situations...if you keep giving them opportunities to hit similar shots, rather than freezing them out if they fail in the past, they WILL improve and be much more capable of staying strong when the pressure is on.

 

I just think it's ridiculous to justify a player taking that kind of shot, and even going as far as to say you think it's a better basketball play than giving a wide open teammate the ball....that's Kobe homerism taken to a whole new level.

[Real Deal]

I just think it's ridiculous to justify a player taking that kind of shot, and even going as far as to say you think it's a better basketball play than giving a wide open teammate the ball....that's Kobe homerism taken to a whole new level.

Other than Fish, you haven't given me any reason to think our wide-open teammates can hit those shots. Give me proof, or it means nothing to me, dude. For every shot you can possibly give me, I can give you all of the wide-open misses, and you would probably be astounded.

 

And, by the way, not all of his doubled shots have been 25-footers. He hit one on Phoenix in the playoffs...it wasn't a half-court shot.

 

Bryant has attempted some dumb shots, we all know that...but you don't have to continue calling them all 25-footers, either.

[Nitro]

Other than Fish, you haven't given me any reason to think our wide-open teammates can hit those shots. Give me proof, or it means nothing to me, dude.

 

The fact that they are NBA players who can hit those same shots, when they are both contested and non-contested, at around a 35% clip or better over the course of an 82-game season and have been important pieces on championship teams, there is no need for video evidence that they are capable of hitting wide open shots at a higher clip than Kobe can hit ridiculously tough long-range fadeaways over double teams. That is, unless you truly believe Kobe is God.

 

For every shot you can possibly give me, I can give you all of the wide-open misses, and you would probably be astounded.

 

And for every tough, contested fadeaway outside of 18-20ft Kobe has hit in the clutch, you can find about 8-10 similar shots that he has missed...because they are bad shots, and Kobe is human. And for every excuse you can make to justify Kobe taking such horrible shots, I can make similar excuses for his teammates missing the rare opportunities we are discussing (the main excuse being Kobe freezing out his teammates the last few minutes of close games, which throws his teammates off any rythym they had).

 

And, by the way, not all of his doubled shots have been 25-footers. He hit one on Phoenix in the playoffs...it wasn't a half-court shot.

 

Bryant has attempted some dumb shots, we all know that...but you don't have to continue calling them all 25-footers, either.

 

I was referring to primarily long-range shots, specifically outside of 20ft or so. Either way, for both the short (the immediate win) and long term (how the role players improve in the clutch) best interests of the Lakers, the correct play is for Kobe to pass up a long-range, tightly contested fadeaway, and give it to a wide open teammate within his shooting range.

[Real Deal]

I find it funny that Phil rarely runs plays for anyone else to get those shots, unless their names are Kobe and Fisher (and most of the broken Kobe plays go to Fish).

 

Talk about long-term all you want. You vs. Phil Jackson + one of the most successful organizations in sports. I'm not sure what else to say.

[MainEv3nt]

no dirk, no manu?

[kobeownslebron]

No that would be Kobe Bryant. As far as closers go I would put Melo 3rd behind Kobe and Wade.