Guest N/A Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Wrong, Kobe's greatest strength is his mid range shooting where he is probably the best in NBA history, Kobe is not only a better shooter, period. But a better scorer, period. Can you please explain to me how you come to the conclusion above? Where is the evidence? How is Kobe a better mid-range shooter and scorer than Michael? Give me some evidence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 21, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 There's no point in comparing the numbers. Jordan didn't have O'Neal averaging 25-30 PPG by his side, nor did he have Phil Jackson up until 1989 (it's obvious that Phil limited him, just like Jax did Bryant). The triangle promotes passing. Jordan wasn't always asked to facilitate, but Kobe has since the very first day he took the starting role...asked to facilitate AND take the most shots since the 2000-01 season, all while feeding Shaq as well. It's worthless comparing the two in that manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 There's no point in comparing the numbers. Jordan didn't have O'Neal averaging 25-30 PPG by his side, nor did he have Phil Jackson up until 1989 (it's obvious that Phil limited him, just like Jax did Bryant). The triangle promotes passing. Jordan wasn't always asked to facilitate, but Kobe has since the very first day he took the starting role...asked to facilitate AND take the most shots since the 2000-01 season, all while feeding Shaq as well. It's worthless comparing the two in that manner. Okay, so what is your reasoning that Kobe is better than Jordan at scoring? I realize you want to throw out efficiency referring to your previous posts, but what is a main reason why he is a better scorer other than personal opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Can you please explain to me how you come to the conclusion above? Where is the evidence? How is Kobe a better mid-range shooter and scorer than Michael? Give me some evidence...idk 2k ratings? Guess you just had to watch the games my man. BTW lol at your other dumb argument, I must have missed Jordan having a prime Shaq on his team when he was 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 idk 2k ratings? Guess you just had to watch the games my man. BTW lol at your other dumb argument, I must have missed Jordan having a prime Shaq on his team when he was 21 I've watched many games of Jordan on ESPN Classic and on YouTube and I've watched Kobe since around 98 when I first started following basketball. I think Jordan was better at getting to the basket and scoring or getting fouled, and I think Jordan's mid-range jumper was better than Kobe by the slightest of margins. If you wanna give your opinion, I just gave mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 21, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Okay, so what is your reasoning that Kobe is better than Jordan at scoring? I realize you want to throw out efficiency referring to your previous posts, but what is a main reason why he is a better scorer other than personal opinion?Growing up and watching my two favorite players play since 1989. At the end of the day, it's all personal opinion, because you can't stick numbers behind anything and prove a point like that. By the numbers, Tracy McGrady was a more dominant offensive player than O'Neal (who never averaged 30). Jordan got to the rim easier. He was an athletic nut, one of the most athletic players in the history of the game. He was far stronger than he looked, and he also had huge hands. Mid-range, uncontested, who knows...but contested? It's Kobe. Long range? Kobe. Post games are close. Jordan had a more dominant fadeaway, while Kobe had better footwork. Jordan has Kobe in slashing to the rim, dunking, finishing at the rim, rebounding and defense (and it's close, when Kobe actually has to lock someone down). Kobe takes Jordan in mid-range, long-range, passing, footwork, and longevity. Post game is a toss-up. Kobe breaks doubles better, shoots over them FAR better. Jordan is better with contact, and was faster for a while. If Kobe would actually put more effort into his defense, AND if Phil wouldn't ask him to roam every single game (mainly to help Fisher and our bigs), he would be the better overall player. I still could make the argument for him right now, and tomorrow, I'll say Jordan is. Next Thursday, I'll tell you Kobe. Factor in the awards and accomplishments, Jordan is the GOAT. Remove them, and things change a bit. Once it comes down to watching two guys dominate their opponents, you get a better feel for their games. Looking at stats, I don't know how well Jordan played certain defenders, or defensive strategies, or how well he played when his teammates were absolutely horrible, or if he played worse when they were involved, etc. No way of telling by stats...just by watching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JYD Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) And, Jordan could travel all he wanted and push off people. He's an over-rated player, and couldn't hold Kobe's jock.Did you just start watching basketball? Come on now, that's just foolish. Kobe Bryant is not better in ANY facet of the game compared to Jordan. I don't think people here realize how good Michael Jordan was....and how mediocre his teams really were.... Edited February 21, 2011 by JYD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Did you just start watching basketball? Come on now, that's just foolish. Kobe Bryant is not better in ANY facet of the game compared to Jordan. I don't think people here realize how good Michael Jordan was....and how mediocre his teams really were.... Well, he did have Scottie but you're right. He would've won 8 rings without a legit post presence which is pretty incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well, he did have Scottie but you're right. He would've won 8 rings without a legit post presence which is pretty incredible. I wouldn't say he never had a legit post presence. Horace Grant didn't put up the flashiest of numbers or have the best post moves, but he was a pretty good post presence when he played for the Bulls from what I have seen. Sure, he isn't Shaq level, but Grant was pretty good you gotta give him his props. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sħãlïq™ Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Here's a great comparison chart (by LAtimes.com): http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-bryant-vs-jordan-i,0,5279814.htmlstory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 21, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The Chicago Horace Grant was as good as Gasol...he put up double-doubles (around 15/10) and shot over 50% for the first ten seasons of his career, and was nearly putting buckets in at 60% one season, think it was the year they played Portland. Didn't play defense, though (neither does Pau). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 21, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Here's a great comparison chart (by LAtimes.com): http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-bryant-vs-jordan-i,0,5279814.htmlstoryYeah, but it's just the numbers. People wouldn't dare compare Tim Duncan's numbers to Barkley's or Malone's, but we know he's the greatest PF to ever play the game because he was as complete as you can get for a big man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JYD Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The Chicago Horace Grant was as good as Gasol...he put up double-doubles (around 15/10) and shot over 50% for the first ten seasons of his career, and was nearly putting buckets in at 60% one season, think it was the year they played Portland. Didn't play defense, though (neither does Pau).Ehhh, I'd say Pau was better than him. Pau is a helluva player. Kobe's team's have always been better than Jordan's...not really even debatable. Kobe makes his teammates better. Jordan, well, he made his teammates good. Scottie Pippen is a prime example - personally, I think that guy is probably one of the most overrated players to ever play the game. He was good (not saying he wasn't) but he isn't one of the top 50 players of all time. Jordan absolutely made that guy's career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AboveLegit Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Ehhh, I'd say Pau was better than him. Pau is a helluva player. Kobe's team's have always been better than Jordan's...not really even debatable. Kobe makes his teammates better. Jordan, well, he made his teammates good. Scottie Pippen is a prime example - personally, I think that guy is probably one of the most overrated players to ever play the game. He was good (not saying he wasn't) but he isn't one of the top 50 players of all time. Jordan absolutely made that guy's career.I'm guessing you never read Olivers post.. http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/21199-pippen-bosh-is-half-a-player-jvg-a-jackass/page__view__findpost__p__241507 I repped RD's post because he brought up good points, but he's not valuing FG% as much as I think he should. Jordan did actually have to totally shoulder the load before Grant and Pippen got there. There's a poster or two here that seems to think that Pippen was there for Jordan's entire career when Pippen didn't come until Jordan's 4th season, and Pippen didn't even average 8 points per game that season, so the Pippen and Grant arguments that some people are using really can't be used when talking about the first 5 years of Jordan's career. And yes field goal percentage does have a lot to do with it when the players are scoring at the same clip. It shows that the player with the higher field goal percentage, while scoring the same amount of point, is going about it much more efficiently. The three point argument, holds no weight either. Just because a player can shoot the three pointer doesn't mean he always should, there's a thing about a good scorer knowing when to pick his spots. Bryant's a great volume scorer but he's not exactly an efficient scorer, whereas Jordan was probably one of the more efficient scorers of all time. Being a great offensive player isn't necessarily how many points you put up, but how you put up those points. Jordan knew his limitations and went with what worked, Bryant on the other tries to do a little too much most of the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 21, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Ehhh, I'd say Pau was better than him. Pau is a helluva player. Kobe's team's have always been better than Jordan's...not really even debatable. Kobe makes his teammates better. Jordan, well, he made his teammates good. Scottie Pippen is a prime example - personally, I think that guy is probably one of the most overrated players to ever play the game. He was good (not saying he wasn't) but he isn't one of the top 50 players of all time. Jordan absolutely made that guy's career.You can give me just one LA team that may have been better than Jordan's 72-win Bulls, and that's it. The Kobe/Gasol Lakers couldn't touch that Bulls team. Rodman would turn Gasol into Shawn Bradley, and because we are terrible at closing out on shooters, the Bulls would light us up, even if Jordan and Kobe were locking themselves down. Kobe and Shaq didn't have much help, at all, and that's what was different between the first dynasty Lakers, and the two dynasty Bulls teams. Chicago's two runs had guys like Grant in the post, Longley (who was an underrated defender, probably just because he was white and goofy), a plethora of shooters that not even LeBron had when he was in Cleveland (including Paxson, who won the 1993 Finals series with a three that Jordan kicked out to him), monster defenders in Pippen (one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time) and Rodman (THE greatest defensive player of all-time, among all positions)...it was a team built to perfection, surrounded by a player that, after he started hitting from long range here and there, really had no weaknesses to his game. Scottie could've taken a team to the Finals. I would bet $500 if I could. He had a big chance, but came up short...and if he had that one other person, to take the load off of him on defense, he could've done it. He carried Grant, Kukoc, Armstrong and Kerr to a 55-win season and a 4-3 loss to the same Knicks team that went on to lose to the Rockets, in the Finals, in seven games. They were 6th in the NBA in defense, top half of the league in scoring. In fact, they were ranked higher, defensively, than they were in 1990-91 and 1992-93, and Pippen's defensive rating was stellar, the best of his career, and better than any defensive rating Jordan ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Too bad Oliver P doesn't post more, dude is a basketball genius. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AboveLegit Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Too bad Oliver P doesn't post more, dude is a basketball genius.He still posts here lol, just not as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 He still posts here lol, just not as much. I realize he posts, but he doesn't post very often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 21, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'm guessing you never read Olivers post.. http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/21199-pippen-bosh-is-half-a-player-jvg-a-jackass/page__view__findpost__p__241507 I repped RD's post because he brought up good points, but he's not valuing FG% as much as I think he should. Jordan did actually have to totally shoulder the load before Grant and Pippen got there. There's a poster or two here that seems to think that Pippen was there for Jordan's entire career when Pippen didn't come until Jordan's 4th season, and Pippen didn't even average 8 points per game that season, so the Pippen and Grant arguments that some people are using really can't be used when talking about the first 5 years of Jordan's career. And yes field goal percentage does have a lot to do with it when the players are scoring at the same clip. It shows that the player with the higher field goal percentage, while scoring the same amount of point, is going about it much more efficiently. The three point argument, holds no weight either. Just because a player can shoot the three pointer doesn't mean he always should, there's a thing about a good scorer knowing when to pick his spots. Bryant's a great volume scorer but he's not exactly an efficient scorer, whereas Jordan was probably one of the more efficient scorers of all time. Being a great offensive player isn't necessarily how many points you put up, but how you put up those points. Jordan knew his limitations and went with what worked, Bryant on the other tries to do a little too much most of the time.I don't take it into consideration as much for many reasons... 1) The zone defense kept Bryant out of the paint, and prevented him from taking short jumpers. It had a visible effect on all guards after Jordan's era...by the numbers, or just by watching.2) Kobe had to put up the most shots (more than Shaq after their first ring), facilitate the offense AND defend the best player on the court, all in a night's work. Jordan was getting IV's from his flu game. Kobe got them every few nights, just by playing.3) Out of all teams that have held their opponents to 42% or less shooting in a season (there are 11 of them), only one of them is from Jordan's era. One is from the 70's, and the other nine are from 1998-2010...Kobe's era. I can't ignore that stuff. It's a big deal. I don't know how many times I saw Jordan get to the rim with just one defensive player on him, and nobody waiting because Jordan would have Pippen, Armstrong and Paxson all waiting for jumpers in the corners (hell, Armstrong shot .499 with the Bulls one season, and a career average of nearly 48% due to the way teams played other players). Stockton and Cheeks shot 57% in a season before. Have you ever seen a player do that? From 1984 (Jordan's rookie year) to 1998 (retirement), here are all guards that have shot 50% or better from the floor, while averaging 15+ PPG. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1998&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws There are a lot of them. From 1998-2011? http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1999&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws That's a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reno Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) I don't take it into consideration as much for many reasons... 1) The zone defense kept Bryant out of the paint, and prevented him from taking short jumpers. It had a visible effect on all guards after Jordan's era...by the numbers, or just by watching.2) Kobe had to put up the most shots (more than Shaq after their first ring), facilitate the offense AND defend the best player on the court, all in a night's work. Jordan was getting IV's from his flu game. Kobe got them every few nights, just by playing.3) Out of all teams that have held their opponents to 42% or less shooting in a season (there are 11 of them), only one of them is from Jordan's era. One is from the 70's, and the other nine are from 1998-2010...Kobe's era. I can't ignore that stuff. It's a big deal. I don't know how many times I saw Jordan get to the rim with just one defensive player on him, and nobody waiting because Jordan would have Pippen, Armstrong and Paxson all waiting for jumpers in the corners (hell, Armstrong shot .499 with the Bulls one season, and a career average of nearly 48% due to the way teams played other players). Stockton and Cheeks shot 57% in a season before. Have you ever seen a player do that? From 1984 (Jordan's rookie year) to 1998 (retirement), here are all guards that have shot 50% or better from the floor, while averaging 15+ PPG. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1998&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws There are a lot of them. From 1998-2011? http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1999&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws That's a big difference.So you're saying the nba made it harder this era for offensive players to score?????? magic and bird would free zone against players all the time, so I'm not buying that excuse. You cant even run a "real" zone defense with the 3 second violations now. Its EASIER to score on zone defenses than when it was in jordans era. Its also almost impossible to regulate "no zone" rules. Ask a ref. Jordan would get beat up and plastered going in for the layup/dunk, and big men were able to camp the basket since their was no 3 second violation. You touch kobe, he cries for a foul, you touch mj and he will dunk on yo ass. So much for jordan struggling against the "zone" defense http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwh7FkFTpow ''Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harassment of zone traps and double and triple-teaming to win the scoring title by averaging 37.1 points a game.'' - New York Times, November 4, 1987 ''Around the NBA, they've tried to stop Michael Jordan, last season's leading scorer by more than eight points a game, almost every way imaginable. They've used zone traps; they've put two, three and sometimes four defenders on him; they've matched him against 7-footers and the best defensive players in the league.'' - Chicago Tribune, Nov 15, 1987 "Today Dumars is the chief basketball executive of the team he once led as a player. He’s an honest man, which means he chooses his words carefully. Asked in July if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, then offered a long pause before replying, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.” “My opinion is that the game had gone too much toward favoring strong players over skilled players,” Thorn said. “The NBA felt there was too much body, too much hand-checking, being used by defenders to the detriment of the game. There was a feeling that there was too much advantage for a defensive player who could merely use his strength to control the offensive player. The new rules interpretations have attempted to address that issue, Thorn said. If the refs perceive that a defender is bumping the cutter, or bumping a ball-handler, then they’ll blow their whistles." Blow their whistles is exactly what officials began doing in both the NBA and its Development League (where many nights officials were whistling a whopping 60 to 70 fouls a game). This new way of calling became increasingly apparent with each regular-season game last year, and it really made an impression during the playoffs. Free from the physical challenge of defenders, offensive players found many more opportunities to attack the basket – and draw fouls. As a result, the new rules interpretation helped promote the emergence last season of a new generation of super stars, from Kobe Bryant scoring his 81 points during a regular season game, to LeBron James, Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas and Dwyane Wade making big splashes in the playoffs. “The good wing players – LeBron, Kobe, Arenas, Wade, Carter – shot a lot of free throws with the way the game is now called,” Thorn admitted. The change became quite apparent during the NBA Finals in June as fans saw time and again Miami’s Wade attacking the basket against seemingly helpless Dallas defenders. When they did try to stop Wade, those Dallas defenders often drew foul calls, which sent Wade to the line to shoot free throws. The new approach even played a role in determining the NBA champion, as Wade played majestically in leading Miami from a two-game deficit to a four-games-to-two victory for the title." Read more: http://hoopshype.com/articles/defense_lazenby.htm#ixzz1EcsvxJI4 There were 6 (including MJ) "wing" players who won Def Player Of The Year 8 times amongst them in jordans era. Now aside from Ron Artest, SHOW ME a defensive resume like this from today's era of guards? That's what I thought.. Throughout his career, MJ faced faced 3 Top 5 defenses in the Finals that had an avg defensive ranking of 7.16. He also faced 17 Top 5 & 24 Top 10 post-season defenses with an avg defensive ranking of 8.35. EVEN PHIL JACKSON SAYS MJ WOULD SCORE AT LEAST 45 PPG WITH TODAYS RULES. "The history book inspires them to be some of the best," said Jordan. "Rules have changed to help them. I could have averaged 50 points today!" "Question for Clyde Drexler:In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be? Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do. "The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006 "Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach, get a look at what he said:Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe? A: M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy." "Tex Winter said. "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier." Asked if he could defend Jordan under today's interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, "It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game's being called right now." "Tim Grover, who has trained Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan, was asked who would win a 1-on-1 battle of Jordan vs. either of the other two:Tim Grover: "Oh, Michael. No question. From a physical and mental standpoint, he's the best I've ever seen. If he were playing now, with the way the refs call everything, and with all the padding these guys wear, he'd average 40 or 50 a night if he wanted." "Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating. “They’d score a lot more,” he said." Edited February 21, 2011 by Cutler=Pansy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNiner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 M.J. couldn't hold Kobe's jock strap. It's all revisionist history and making past greats seem better then they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 M.J. couldn't hold Kobe's jock strap. It's all revisionist history and making past greats seem better then they were. So.... With this logic CP3 is better than Magic Johnson? Yeah... http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/058/855/original/GTFO7.png?1278991790 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted February 21, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'm not going to reply to someone that truly thinks that Michael Jordan could score 100 points in today's game. Give me a break. I'm just going to assume you're kidding. And I don't need your copy/paste lecture about zone defense. If you're going to tell me about it, write it up yourself. There were 6 (including MJ) "wing" players who won Def Player Of The Year 8 times amongst them in jordans era. Now aside from Ron Artest, SHOW ME a defensive resume like this from today's era of guards? That's what I thought..You're a liar. Alvin RobertsonMichael CooperMichael JordanGary Payton Those were the only four "wing" DPOY winners from 1984 (Jordan's rookie year) to 1998 (Jordan's real retirement). Leave out MJ, and you have just three. And they all won the award once. http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/dpoy.html --------- As far as the rest of your post goes, Mark Jackson is one of a few that have said that Kobe is the best player they've ever seen. I don't really care what ANY of those guys say. Those that played in the Jordan era don't want to make the game sound easier for them, obviously. And, you don't get the concept of a zone defense, and having to commit to the double team. Yeah, it happened...and committing means Jordan had teammates open all over the place. It happened less than it should've. Bigs could camp in the paint? They still do. Not being able to, on defense, doesn't mean the zone is busted. You zone up around the perimeter, and have your bigs with a foot out of the paint. Have you ever seen a 3-2 zone? http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/32ZoneDefenseSet.GIF Nice job avoiding the fact that there were around 74 instances of a player scoring 15+ PPG and shooting 50% from the floor back in Jordan's era, and only 15-16 after he retired. You can say what you want...but the copy/paste stuff doesn't work, and if you're going to tell me something, make sure your info is accurate (ex. DPOY statement). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reno Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) I'm not going to reply to someone that truly thinks that Michael Jordan could score 100 points in today's game. Give me a break. I'm just going to assume you're kidding. And I don't need your copy/paste lecture about zone defense. If you're going to tell me about it, write it up yourself. You're a liar. Alvin RobertsonMichael CooperMichael JordanGary Payton Those were the only four "wing" DPOY winners from 1984 (Jordan's rookie year) to 1998 (Jordan's real retirement). Leave out MJ, and you have just three. And they all won the award once. http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/dpoy.html --------- As far as the rest of your post goes, Mark Jackson is one of a few that have said that Kobe is the best player they've ever seen. I don't really care what ANY of those guys say. Those that played in the Jordan era don't want to make the game sound easier for them, obviously. And, you don't get the concept of a zone defense, and having to commit to the double team. Yeah, it happened...and committing means Jordan had teammates open all over the place. It happened less than it should've. Bigs could camp in the paint? They still do. Not being able to, on defense, doesn't mean the zone is busted. You zone up around the perimeter, and have your bigs with a foot out of the paint. Have you ever seen a 3-2 zone? http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/32ZoneDefenseSet.GIF Nice job avoiding the fact that there were around 74 instances of a player scoring 15+ PPG and shooting 50% from the floor back in Jordan's era, and only 15-16 after he retired. You can say what you want...but the copy/paste stuff doesn't work, and if you're going to tell me something, make sure your info is accurate (ex. DPOY statement). My bad, I added sidney moncrief as part of the era, even though he did win it a year before jordan entered the league, thought it was still viable. And dennis rodman was an amazing wing defender, specially in his earlier years with detroit. I'm not the one saying mj would score 100 points, the laker shooting coach said that, lol. But no doubt in my mind mj could possibly score 100 in a game against todays defenses and rules. Phil jackson also believes mj could average 45 points per game, does his opinion not matter? But you only care what that one time all star mark jackson says? Ok good for you. You can chose to ignore what some ex hall of famers/players/coaches and even the personal trainers who worked with both players have to say about the game, but me personally, I will always value an ex player/headcoach opinion/observation on any sports. Nice job avoiding the fact there were 74 instances of players scoring 15+ppg and 50% shooting? I'd say the players in jordans era were more fundamental, smarter, and more skillfull, and did not care to chuck the ball 1000 times a game and take poor shot selections like kobe bryant. Totally different mentality and mindset with todays players to the ones in the past. You're comparing the difference in eras directly due to the change in zone rules, when zone play was still being played in the 80s/90s, and yet you had a lot more physical play. Doesn't make sense to me Oh, and for the shits and giggles, heres mj owning the 3-2 zone defense, the one that obviously could never had existed in the 90s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6_GgXXR4vA So despite mj getting zone, double/tripple teamed, faced more physical defenses, he still posted a much higher ppg and a higher shooting %. Amazing. Also, whats the correlation of kobe bryant getting iv's after ever few games? Are you trying to say mj didn't play as hard? So I guess mj didn't put his full effort in his career and is still the best player of all time? lol and MJ's defensive stats/steals/blocks speak for themselves, so dont try to say kobe is almost on mj's level on defense, even when he tries, thats insulting. Also, I know it doesn't matter, but just thought to lay some more insight. Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check." "You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense... "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50. Lets compare the leaders in ppg between the different eras. League leaders in points: 2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 23862007-08 NBA Kobe Bryant 23232006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 24302005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 28322004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 2302 (rules changes go into full effect)2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 1987 Now let's look at PPG leaders who average 24 points per game or more: 2003-2004 ppg:Points Per Game Leaders1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 28.02. Peja Stojakovic-SAC 24.23. Kevin Garnett-MIN 24.24. Kobe Bryant-LAL 24.0 2004-2005 ppg (rules changes in full effect)(Notice a spike in scoring and notice how many perimeter players top the PPG lists)Points Per Game Leaders1. Allen Iverson-PHI 30.72. Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.63. LeBron James-CLE 27.24. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.15. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 26.06. Tracy McGrady-HOU 25.77. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 25.58. Vince Carter-TOT 24.59. Dwyane Wade-MIA 24.1 2005-2006 ppgPoints Per Game Leaders1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.42. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.03. LeBron James-CLE 31.44. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.35. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.26. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.87. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.68. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.59. Michael Redd-MIL 25.410. Ray Allen-SEA 25.111. Elton Brand-LAC 24.712. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2 2006-2007 ppgPoints Per Game Leaders1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 31.62. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 28.93. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 28.44. LeBron James-CLE 27.35. Michael Redd-MIL 26.76. Ray Allen-SEA 26.47. Allen Iverson-TOT 26.38. Vince Carter-NJN 25.29. Joe Johnson-ATL 25.010. Tracy McGrady-HOU 24.611. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 24.6 2007-2008 ppgPoints Per Game leaders 1.LeBron James-CLE 30.02. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.33. Allen Iverson-DEN 26.44. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 25.75. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 25.2 2008-2009 ppgPoints Per Game1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 30.22. LeBron James-CLE 28.43. Kobe Bryant-LAL 26.84. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.95. Danny Granger-IND 25.86. Kevin Durant-OKC 25.3 Now let's compare that to the 90's when Jordan was a Bull:1997-1998 ppgPoints Per Game leaders 1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.72. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.33. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0(these were the only 3 players over 24ppg) 1996-1997 ppgPoints Per Game leaders 1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 29.62. Karl Malone-UTA 27.43. Glen Rice-CHH 26.84. Mitch Richmond-SAC 25.95. Latrell Sprewell-GSW 24.2 1995-1996 ppgPoints Per Game leaders 1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.42. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.93. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 26.64. Karl Malone-UTA 25.75. David Robinson*-SAS 25.0(notice, only one perimeter player) 1994-1995 ppgPoints Per Game leaders1. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.32. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.83. David Robinson*-SAS 27.64. Karl Malone-UTA 26.75. Jamal Mashburn-DAL 24.1(Notice the lack of perimeter players) 1993-1994 ppgPoints Per Game leaders1. David Robinson*-SAS 29.82. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.33. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.34. Dominique Wilkins*-TOT 26.05. Karl Malone-UTA 25.26. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.5 (where are the perimeter players?) 1992-1993 ppgPoints Per Game leaders1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.62. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.93. Karl Malone-UTA 27.04. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.15. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.66. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.2 1991-1992 ppgPoints Per Game leaders1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.12. Karl Malone-UTA 28.03. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.64. Clyde Drexler*-POR 25.05. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.0 1990-1991 ppgPoints Per Game leaders1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.52. Karl Malone-UTA 29.03. Bernard King-WSB 28.44. Charles Barkley*-PHI 27.65. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 26.66. Michael Adams-DEN 26.57. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 25.98. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.79. David Robinson*-SAS 25.6 "During Jordan's era it was MUCH MUCH more difficult for perimeter players to score as much as today's perimeter players.... 90's defense was the best defense at containing perimeter basketball players. 90's defenses took the best aspects of 80's defenses and added to them. 00's defenses were stripped of their rights to actually physically contain the ball handler. Why do you think the 04 Pistons defense fell off so quick?" "NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range? Stu Jackson: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate."http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/nbahandchecking.htm Edited February 21, 2011 by Cutler=Pansy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AboveLegit Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 I don't take it into consideration as much for many reasons... 1) The zone defense kept Bryant out of the paint, and prevented him from taking short jumpers. It had a visible effect on all guards after Jordan's era...by the numbers, or just by watching.2) Kobe had to put up the most shots (more than Shaq after their first ring), facilitate the offense AND defend the best player on the court, all in a night's work. Jordan was getting IV's from his flu game. Kobe got them every few nights, just by playing.3) Out of all teams that have held their opponents to 42% or less shooting in a season (there are 11 of them), only one of them is from Jordan's era. One is from the 70's, and the other nine are from 1998-2010...Kobe's era. I can't ignore that stuff. It's a big deal. I don't know how many times I saw Jordan get to the rim with just one defensive player on him, and nobody waiting because Jordan would have Pippen, Armstrong and Paxson all waiting for jumpers in the corners (hell, Armstrong shot .499 with the Bulls one season, and a career average of nearly 48% due to the way teams played other players). Stockton and Cheeks shot 57% in a season before. Have you ever seen a player do that? From 1984 (Jordan's rookie year) to 1998 (retirement), here are all guards that have shot 50% or better from the floor, while averaging 15+ PPG. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1998&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws There are a lot of them. From 1998-2011? http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1999&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=fg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.500&c2stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws That's a big difference.The truth is it's about the same to get in the lane than it always has been, things are just different now. It's tougher to drive because of pseudo-zones, but at the same times because no team is allowed to play a traditional zone the defenses still get stretched a good bit because of the three point shot is such an instrumental part of the most teams offenses. But back in the day it was just as hard to drive because while there wasn't zones, defenses didn't extend themselves as much as they do now, so why teams could isolate there wasn't as much distance for a weakside defender to cover. My biggest concern with Kobe's game is his decision making. Jordan had the higher bball IQ because he knew his limitations, while you often see Kobe jacking up terrible shots instead of trusting his teammates. That's always been a huge knock on Kobe, but he has learned a bit from that ever since Shaq left. Obviously Jordan had it different in his day, but come on, the glaring differences in FG% are just too much for one to just ignore. Jordan had 7 straight seasons with 30PPG or more, Kobe has reached that feat three times in his career. I agree with you that Kobe has the wider arsenal on offense, but as to who's the better player at getting the ball into the hoop, you gotta give it to Jordan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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