Do you think there should be contraction?

[The Truth]

I'll try not to use caps to get my point across: champions are built out of the draft + trades. Spurs and Duncan/Gino/Parker, Lakers and Kobe, Celtics and Pierce. Boston traded for Garnett and Allen, Lakers for Shaq and Gasol. Heat and Wade, traded for Shaq.

the Lakers acquired Shaq via free agency.

[Real Deal]

the Lakers acquired Shaq via free agency.

Last seven Finals teams...Shaq was on the Heat via trade. That's what I meant.

 

EDIT: LOL, I meant Bynum in that particular post. But, of course, Bynum = Shaq.

 

[The Truth]

Boston traded for Garnett and Allen, Lakers for Shaq and Gasol.

 

either way, you can't just mention the last seven title teams, that's only four different teams. besides, I highly doubt that Miami team would've won a title that year without all those free agent acquisitions.

 

free agency is definitely becoming a bigger part of today's game. it wasn't as common in the early history of the league because there were fewer teams. with what happened last summer, I'm not really sure how you can say free agency doesn't build teams.

[Guest N/A]

You won't talk about it because it's the perfect reason why small-market teams can build. This is you trying to prove that the league needs a contraction, so step up to the plate and talk, don't avoid it. Tell me why teams have to rely on free agency, and thus relying on their "big market," to become important in this league.

 

Or, you can just not talk about it, and we'll move on.

 

I responded to your part that small markets can't attract free agents. I never said small markets couldn't build championships through the draft or trading. YOU did that and debated with yourself in the process...

[Real Deal]

 

either way, you can't just mention the last seven title teams, that's only four different teams. besides, I highly doubt that Miami team would've won a title that year without all those free agent acquisitions.

 

free agency is definitely becoming a bigger part of today's game. it wasn't as common in the early history of the league because there were fewer teams. with what happened last summer, I'm not really sure how you can say free agency doesn't build teams.

I clearly stated the last seven Finals teams, but okay.

 

And it was a mistake. Obviously, I know Shaq signed as a free agent. That was in 1996, one week after the Lakers traded Divac for Kobe in the draft. I don't need a history lesson.

 

Miami had free agent acquisitions? How many?

 

2010: Lakers (Kobe, Gasol, Drew, Odom all traded for or drafted)

Celtics (Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Rondo, Perkins all traded for or drafted)

 

2009: Lakers (see above)

Magic (Howard, Nelson drafted...Hedo, Lewis FA's)

 

2008: Lakers (see above)

Celtics (see above)

 

2007: Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili all drafted)

Cavaliers (LeBron, Ilgauskas drafted, Varejao traded for, Hughes FA)

 

2006: Heat (Wade drafted, Shaq, J-Will, Posey, Walker traded for, Payton FA)

Mavericks (Dirk, Howard drafted, Terry and Harris traded for)

 

2005: Spurs (see above)

Pistons (Hamilton, Sheed, Big Ben traded for, Prince drafted, Billups FA)

 

2004: Lakers (Kobe drafted, Shaq FA)

Pistons (see above)

 

2003: Spurs (already mentioned)

Nets (Kidd traded for, K-Mart drafted, Jefferson draft-day trade)

 

Not really sure why I would have to continue doing this...it's obvious that these teams have built their teams with drafts and trades more than they have with free agency.

[The Truth]

^ obviously, but my point was that it's changing. with what happened with LeBron and Bosh - it's gonna start a whole new trend amongst players. I wouldn't be surprised if Dwight, D-Will, and CP3 left via free agency as well. although, none of this has anything to do with the topic, so I'm just gonna waive the white flag and bounce.

[Real Deal]

I responded to your part that small markets can't attract free agents. I never said small markets couldn't build championships through the draft or trading. YOU did that and debated with yourself in the process...

They attract free agents once they become good teams. Is that too hard to understand? I gave you a couple from a year ago, and you decided to find excuses as to why it happened.

 

Billups went to Detroit.

 

David Lee went to Golden State (trade, but only so the Knicks could get something in return, just like LeBron and Bosh did).

 

Carlos Boozer signed with Chicago.

 

Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis signed with Orlando.

 

Elton Brand signed with Philly.

 

Steve Nash signed with Phoenix.

 

Andre Miller signed with Denver in 2003, then signed with Portland in 2009.

 

I'll find many more examples.

[Guest N/A]

They attract free agents once they become good teams. Is that too hard to understand? I gave you a couple from a year ago, and you decided to find excuses as to why it happened.

 

Billups went to Detroit.

 

David Lee went to Golden State (trade, but only so the Knicks could get something in return, just like LeBron and Bosh did).

 

Carlos Boozer signed with Chicago.

 

Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis signed with Orlando.

 

Elton Brand signed with Philly.

 

Steve Nash signed with Phoenix.

 

Andre Miller signed with Denver in 2003, then signed with Portland in 2009.

 

I'll find many more examples.

 

LOL, Chicago is nothing close to a small market.

 

All of those signings were because teams threw the most money at the players to sign.

 

When I talk about free agents signing in small markets I'm talking BIG NAME people signing for less or equal money because they want to win a championship in a small market.

 

 

 

[Dash]

Contraction would be stupid. Just fix the CBA so players aren't allowed to make super teams and smaller markets are bigger players in free agency and I'm happy.

[Real Deal]

LOL, Chicago is nothing close to a small market.

 

All of those signings were because teams threw the most money at the players to sign.

Excuses once again.

 

When I talk about free agents signing in small markets I'm talking BIG NAME people signing for less or equal money because they want to win a championship in a small market.

Nash, a two-time MVP, isn't a big-enough name for you? Billups, a Finals MVP? Hell, David Lee was an all-star last season.

 

In other words, you're talking about just the examples from this season, because otherwise, you really have no legs to stand on.

 

The fact is, those big-name free agents you're speaking of (basically just the three in Miami and the two in NY, of course)...the Miami three just wanted to be on the same team, and going to Miami (with Riley, and Wade's home that he won a ring in) was the biggest factor. All three could've went to New York (no place better if you want the spotlight), but they didn't. Amare went to NY for the market, so did Melo. Two examples.

 

Not sure what else to say about it. It's all right there. Small markets compete for free agents when they make themselves relevant through drafts and trades (and that's the main reason they contend). Big markets do the same...and throughout history, it's rare that a BAD big market team picks up the best free agents, because the truth is, few top-level free agents would rather be the man on a winning team, and that's what comes to mind first.

 

LeBron had a chance to leave Cleveland a long time ago, but he signed his extension. Melo could've left Denver, but he signed an extension. Bosh and Toronto. All of those players signed an extension. Same with Chris Paul in New Orleans. Kevin Durant signed an extension to stay in Oklahoma City.

 

If those big-market teams were so important, these guys (who were already superstars before they signed those extensions) would've been free agents, packing their bags and heading to New York, or New Jersey, or Miami and LA. But they didn't.

 

You have it all wrong.

[?QuestionMark?]

Just fix the CBA so players aren't allowed to make super teams and smaller markets are bigger players in free agency and I'm happy.

 

Seriously. One of the easiest fixes are eliminating sign and trades. Either take the most money with the team you're on, or take less and sign somewhere else.

 

I don't think you really need to contract teams. Teams are bad not because they're a small market team but because they're poorly run. If you have inept people in the front office, you're going to be horrible. Minnesota had a Hall of Fame big man for over a decade and couldn't put a decent team around him.

 

You don't need FA to build teams. You plug holes via FA, you build teams through the draft and making smart trades.

 

But if they do contract someone, please get rid of the Clippers....or at least send them somewhere else. Like Alaska.

[?QuestionMark?]

 

Nash, a two-time MVP, isn't a big-enough name for you? Billups, a Finals MVP? Hell, David Lee was an all-star last season.

 

 

To be fair, Nash wasn't a two-time MVP when he originally signed with PHX. If he was, I doubt Cuban would have let him walk for nothing. And Billups was a journeyman guard looking for a place to start when he signed with Detroit.

[Guest N/A]

Excuses once again.

 

 

Nash, a two-time MVP, isn't a big-enough name for you? Billups, a Finals MVP? Hell, David Lee was an all-star last season.

 

In other words, you're talking about just the examples from this season, because otherwise, you really have no legs to stand on.

 

The fact is, those big-name free agents you're speaking of (basically just the three in Miami and the two in NY, of course)...the Miami three just wanted to be on the same team, and going to Miami (with Riley, and Wade's home that he won a ring in) was the biggest factor. All three could've went to New York (no place better if you want the spotlight), but they didn't. Amare went to NY for the market, so did Melo. Two examples.

 

 

If those big-market teams were so important, these guys (who were already superstars before they signed those extensions) would've been free agents, packing their bags and heading to New York, or New Jersey, or Miami and LA. But they didn't.

 

You have it all wrong.

 

 

Nash wasn't a two-time MVP winner before he left Dallas for a return to PHX. Billups wasn't a Finals MVP until he got to Detroit either. David Lee is a product of the system and it shows with Golden State. Those guys weren't stars when they signed with their teams, they're just solid free agents.

 

 

[Guest N/A]

To be fair, Nash wasn't a two-time MVP when he originally signed with PHX. If he was, I doubt Cuban would have let him walk for nothing. And Billups was a journeyman guard looking for a place to start when he signed with Detroit.

 

EXACTLY! Cuban let Nash walk because common sense said he would wear down, but he didn't and now look at him. Plus, Billups was like on his 6th teams in 5 years when he signed with the Pistons.

[Real Deal]

He was an all-star in Dallas. Stop avoiding the inevitable (you admitting you're wrong).

[Guest N/A]

He was an all-star in Dallas. Stop avoiding the inevitable (you admitting you're wrong).

 

Nash was an all-star ONE SEASON. Stop avoiding the inevitable that you tried to engage in a debate with me for about 10 posts when I wanted to talk about free agency (WHERE I CLEARLY REPLIED ABOUT THE FA PART), and you throw down all this building a team through the draft and trades stuff.

[Real Deal]

Nash was an all-star ONE SEASON. Stop avoiding the inevitable that you tried to engage in a debate with me for about 10 posts when I wanted to talk about free agency (WHERE I CLEARLY REPLIED ABOUT THE FA PART), and you throw down all this building a team through the draft and trades stuff.

LOL, I've given you a LIST of guys (all-stars, borderline all-stars, leaving out many others) who have signed with teams not named the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, or Clippers...and your reason for all of it is money. Haha...really? So, either they go to a big-market team, or they go towards the money? The team's contention (or even potential contention) has nothing to do with it?

 

You're delusional, dude. Nash was an all-star, he showed NO signs of slowing down (common sense is wrong?), it doesn't change the fact that Nash went to Phoenix as an all-star, and if I started listing every single free agent over the last 10 years who has avoided those big-market teams, you'd be even more screwed and giving me the same excuse over and over again.

 

But I've listed enough, right off the top of my head. I don't feel like doing any research on the topic because everyone can see that I've dropped my elbow over and over again on what is now a dead horse.

 

No contraction necessary, teams build through drafts and trades, free agents are attracted to BOTH big markets and small market teams that build smart and are run by competent owners/GMs. History proves it, it's all there in black and white, and my end of the discussion is complete.

[Guest N/A]

LOL, I've given you a LIST of guys (all-stars, borderline all-stars, leaving out many others) who have signed with teams not named the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, or Clippers...and your reason for all of it is money. Haha...really? So, either they go to a big-market team, or they go towards the money? The team's contention has nothing to do with it?

 

You're delusional, dude. Nash was an all-star, he showed NO signs of slowing down (common sense is wrong?), it doesn't change the fact that Nash went to Phoenix as an all-star, and if I started listing every single free agent over the last 10 years who has avoided those big-market teams, you'd be even more screwed and giving me the same excuse over and over again.

 

But I've listed enough, right off the top of my head. I don't feel like doing any research on the topic because everyone can see that I've dropped my elbow over and over again on what is now a dead horse.

 

No contraction necessary, teams build through drafts and trades, free agents are attracted to BOTH big markets and small market teams that build smart and are run by competent owners/GMs. History proves it, it's all there in black and white, and my end of the discussion is complete.

 

Cuban thought Nash had signs of slowing down so he let him go(look it up well documented). Also, I never knew calling yourself the winner of a discussion was logic for you being right so whatever floats your boat. I'm not in favor of just completely wiping teams off the map, but I am in favor of combining two struggling teams such as the Kings and Hornets.