Best defensive PG in the league right now

[AboveLegit]

They have a great defending center in McGee so you can't so Kirk is by himself.

lol... the only good defender on the Wizards now is Wall, and even then he's still learning the ropes.

[Real Deal]

I like how you use examples of players not named Kirk Hinrich or Rajon Rondo to prove your point, but whatever.

...the examples were proving why you shouldn't be providing video like you were, but you knew that.

 

Rondo has averaged more steals per game in his career, he is a better on-ball defender, he annoys the hell out of whoever he defends (like LeBron), and he's quicker than Kirk so he can guard even the quickest PG's.

He's not a better on-ball defender...sorry.

 

And the rest of that sounds like you're describing Allen Iverson. No need for me to tell you about his defense. His best defensive season was in 2000-01...ironically, the same year he had Mutombo, Ratliff and Hill in the frontcourt, and McKie and Snow helping as well.

 

If you take a look at George Lynch's defensive ratings and numbers, you'll find that his best years were also with that Philly team...and, any other team he was ever on, he was absolutely horrible.

 

I realize you like Kirk and all, but if Kirk makes such a great impact on defense why is Washington 21st in the NBA in defensive efficiency when Kirk played 30 mpg per game there? They have a great defending center in McGee so you can't so Kirk is by himself.

McGee is not a defensive anchor, and Blatche is horrible. Nick Young is worse than Blatche. Al Thornton? Shard?

 

Question for you: Amare has always been a good shot-blocker. He's like McGee, really...has trouble grabbing boards, but can block shots. Want to explain why the 2005-06 Suns were 17th in the NBA, defensively, despite having Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion AND Quentin Richardson? Can we just assume those three (especially Marion) were overrated defensive players?

[Guest N/A]

...the examples were proving why you shouldn't be providing video like you were, but you knew that.

 

 

He's not a better on-ball defender...sorry.

 

And the rest of that sounds like you're describing Allen Iverson. No need for me to tell you about his defense. His best defensive season was in 2000-01...ironically, the same year he had Mutombo, Ratliff and Hill in the frontcourt, and McKie and Snow helping as well.

 

If you take a look at George Lynch's defensive ratings and numbers, you'll find that his best years were also with that Philly team...and, any other team he was ever on, he was absolutely horrible.

 

 

McGee is not a defensive anchor, and Blatche is horrible. Nick Young is worse than Blatche. Al Thornton? Shard?

 

Question for you: Amare has always been a good shot-blocker. He's like McGee, really...has trouble grabbing boards, but can block shots. Want to explain why the 2005-06 Suns were 17th in the NBA, defensively, despite having Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion AND Quentin Richardson? Can we just assume those three (especially Marion) were overrated defensive players?

 

 

How do you come to all of these conclusions? Please give me proof how Kirk is better than Rondo because I'm not seeing it. Rondo can guard players as quick as Westbrook and as big and talented as LeBron. Kirk is PROVEN to struggle against quick PG's and I've never even seen him attempt to guard LeBron. Plus, if Kirk's defense was REALLY that important the Bulls would've chose to give Luol Deng away in the offseason instead of Kirk...

 

 

[Real Deal]

But you're acting as if Kirk has been a great defender this year. I haven't been as impressed with him this year as I have in years past. Rondo has surpassed him in my eyes simply because he does more on defense than any one PG in this league. When you factor in all of that, how can you not say Rondo? Kirk has him beat in man to man defense due to his size, but even then it's pretty close.

 

You're not going to find defenses built around attacking the ball with bulldog defenders like Payton and Pippen, because of the rule changes limiting the effectiveness of guys like that it's all about defending the paint with help defense and rotating. Guys like Rondo and CP3 create extra possessions for their team by forcing turnovers and crashing the boards.

 

And does it matter if Rondo is not as good of an on ball defender? 75% of PG's today can't beat him off the dribble regardless.

 

We can't keep discrediting Rondo because he plays for the Celtics. I see it way too much regarding his offense, but now we see the significance of him in the lineup now. On defense it's the same way, if he's out of that lineup, they aren't the top defense in the league.

 

And let's not use the logic of saying if you want one player guarding Wade... The answer is obviously Kirk because he managed to lock him up before...

On-ball defense is too important to me to just disregard like that. Rondo is not Dwight Howard. If Rondo was a seven-footer and had trouble defending other centers in the post (like Howard has over the course of his career), yet he provided the best help defense in the history of the game...I'd be telling you that Rondo's on-ball isn't a big deal.

 

Hinrich hasn't played his best defense this season, but it's not because he's old (as suggested earlier). He's 30, and he's not suffering from lingering knee problems. The wrist/hand was the biggest issue over the last year or so. Every Wizards game I've watched, I've seen Hinrich roaming. He shouldn't be doing it. It's something Flip has done with the Pistons and Prince back when he took over for Larry Brown, and it's the only way he knows how to coach defense (he's definitely no defensive coach).

 

I realize that Wall is a decent defender, but he needs work...and aside from Wall, there isn't a single player on the Wizards that can defend their position. McGee provides help, but not much of it, and he has to be too invested into his own man because teams aren't afraid to punish them down low (when they can).

 

All I'm saying is...stick Hinrich in that Celtics backcourt, and his defense looks better than Rondo's. They wouldn't be a better team because Hinrich isn't as good as Rondo back on offense, and he's not the rebounder, but strictly defense, he would be doing a slightly better job.

[Guest N/A]

 

All I'm saying is...stick Hinrich in that Celtics backcourt, and his defense looks better than Rondo's. They wouldn't be a better team because Hinrich isn't as good as Rondo back on offense, and he's not the rebounder, but strictly defense, he would be doing a slightly better job.

 

Once again, you provide an opinion with no statistical or video evidence to back it up.

 

Congrats.

[Real Deal]

How do you come to all of these conclusions? Please give me proof how Kirk is better than Rondo because I'm not seeing it. Rondo can guard players as quick as Westbrook and as big and talented as LeBron. Kirk is PROVEN to struggle against quick PG's and I've never even seen him attempt to guard LeBron. Plus, if Kirk's defense was REALLY that important the Bulls would've chose to give Luol Deng away in the offseason instead of Kirk...

Uh, the Bulls gave Hinrich away because they had Rose. Hinrich at the two wasn't working offensively. He's a point.

 

What proof have you given me? Nobody is going to provide anything in this topic because all defensive numbers are based on a team's overall defense, and your clips give me one game (even ABL admitted that Hinrich has locked up Wade before, even though you say he hasn't, and that's all irrelevant to the topic at this point).

 

LeBron would obliterate Rondo. You seriously need to stop bringing that into this discussion, dude. I really hope you don't think he can seriously guard James.

 

And Kobe defended Westbrook in the last two playoff games of the series last year, and locked him up badly, despite having a jacked-up knee and no speed. It's not about quickness, it's about brains.

[Real Deal]

Once again, you provide an opinion with no statistical or video evidence to back it up.

 

Congrats.

I told you I'd give you video evidence of Starks killing Jordan, but you didn't want that because it would be absolutely stupid to base an argument off of it...correct?

 

And you haven't given me one single stat proving Rondo is the better defensive player, because there is no individual stat for defense. They all factor in the help. None of them leave out switches, double teams, or consider the anchor(s) that keep those guards out of the paint to begin with, the anchors that change an offensive gameplan.

 

Your word against mine. You can believe what you want. Hinrich is the better on-ball defensive player, and few disagree with that. I'll take the better on-ball defender, the one that relies less on help defense...and that's a fact.

[Guest N/A]

Uh, the Bulls gave Hinrich away because they had Rose. Hinrich at the two wasn't working offensively. He's a point.

 

What proof have you given me? Nobody is going to provide anything in this topic because all defensive numbers are based on a team's overall defense, and your clips give me one game (even ABL admitted that Hinrich has locked up Wade before, even though you say he hasn't, and that's all irrelevant to the topic at this point).

 

LeBron would obliterate Rondo. You seriously need to stop bringing that into this discussion, dude. I really hope you don't think he can seriously guard James.

 

And Kobe defended Westbrook in the last two playoff games of the series last year, and locked him up badly, despite having a jacked-up knee and no speed. It's not about quickness, it's about brains.

 

I showed you VIDEO PROOF that Rondo could contain LeBron, and I gave you video proof that rookie in Roddy B could destroy Hinrich.

 

It's funny that you just discount the fact that Rondo's defense was the reason the Celtics beat the Heat a few weeks back and that LeBron can destroy Rondo.

 

Rondo's defense was also the reason they beat the Cavs in the playoffs last year.

 

Once again, why are you bringing other players besides Kirk and Rondo into this debate?

 

If you think I only take athletic ability into account you're flat out wrong.

 

Rondo is one of the smartest players in the NBA and has some of the best athletic ability.

 

Look, I just took brains into account and Rondo still comes out on top because he has both skill and smarts.

 

Kirk is a close second to Rondo, but Rondo is the best defensive PG in the NBA RIGHT NOW.

[AboveLegit]

On-ball defense is too important to me to just disregard like that. Rondo is not Dwight Howard. If Rondo was a seven-footer and had trouble defending other centers in the post (like Howard has over the course of his career), yet he provided the best help defense in the history of the game...I'd be telling you that Rondo's on-ball isn't a big deal.

You're setting your standards way too high, you can't seriously use Dwight in this thread. KG and Dwight in my eyes are the two best defenders regardless of their position in this league. After that there is a huge drop off. Is it a coincidence that those two are big men? The fact is, there's not a single guard that can dominate a game defensively right now.

 

Rondo and Dwight were the only locks for the all defensive first team last season, and if I remember correctly, both were the top 2 leading vote getters. Rondo isn't the defensive force that Howard is because no one can change the outlook of a team the way Dwight can (other than probably KG), but Rondo is the best at his position when it comes to help defense and that should cover up his problems with on ball D.

 

Hinrich hasn't played his best defense this season, but it's not because he's old (as suggested earlier). He's 30, and he's not suffering from lingering knee problems. The wrist/hand was the biggest issue over the last year or so. Every Wizards game I've watched, I've seen Hinrich roaming. He shouldn't be doing it. It's something Flip has done with the Pistons and Prince back when he took over for Larry Brown, and it's the only way he knows how to coach defense (he's definitely no defensive coach).

 

I realize that Wall is a decent defender, but he needs work...and aside from Wall, there isn't a single player on the Wizards that can defend their position. McGee provides help, but not much of it, and he has to be too invested into his own man because teams aren't afraid to punish them down low (when they can).

Flip trusts Kirk more than he trusts Wall and forces him to cover the opponents best offensive threat every game that he starts. Wall is an average on ball defender right now, he has had a tough time covering Rose, Westbrook, and even Nash. He doesn't roam around as much as you'd think. I saw Wall doing that a lot last night in Miami, but I think that had more to do with the fact that Mario Chalmers isn't viewed as much of a threat on offense.

 

All I'm saying is...stick Hinrich in that Celtics backcourt, and his defense looks better than Rondo's. They wouldn't be a better team because Hinrich isn't as good as Rondo back on offense, and he's not the rebounder, but strictly defense, he would be doing a slightly better job.

I don't know if I'd agree with that logic. I hate to sound redundant here, but Rondo is just a better all around defender. He does so much more than Kirk on defense, from crashing the boards to playing the passing lanes, something Kirk definitely isn't good at. The Celtics already are a poor rebounding team, take Rondo off of it, and they become terrible. Can the Celtics use a guy like Kirk so Ray doesn't have to cover Kobe in the Finals? Definitely, but he wouldn't be able to do all the things Rondo did on a daily basis.

[Real Deal]

I showed you VIDEO PROOF that Rondo could contain LeBron, and I gave you video proof that rookie in Roddy B could destroy Hinrich.

 

It's funny that you just discount the fact that Rondo's defense was the reason the Celtics beat the Heat a few weeks back and that LeBron can destroy Rondo.

 

Rondo's defense was also the reason they beat the Cavs in the playoffs last year.

 

Once again, why are you bringing other players besides Kirk and Rondo into this debate?

 

If you think I only take athletic ability into account you're flat out wrong.

 

Rondo is one of the smartest players in the NBA and has some of the best athletic ability.

 

Look, I just took brains into account and Rondo still comes out on top because he has both skill and smarts.

 

Kirk is a close second to Rondo, but Rondo is the best defensive PG in the NBA RIGHT NOW.

The only time I'm bringing other players into this is when I'm proving how ridiculous it is to show me video proof of something just to prove a player hasn't been able to defend Wade for eight seasons. One or two situations isn't going to prove anything. I'm too lazy to dig up video of Hinrich shutting Wade down...but most remember it, and I'm sure you do as well.

 

Rondo's defense was the reason the Celtics beat the Cavaliers, huh? Did he defend LeBron then, also? I hope you say no, because LeBron gutted the Celtics' defense.

 

Did you see what Wade did to Rondo and the Celtics in the first round? Go look up Wade's numbers against Boston, when Rondo was defending him...lol. I haven't seen a player do that good against Boston's defense in a long time.

 

And, obviously, you think Rajon could handle LeBron James for 40 minutes of a game...funniest thing I've read in a long time. No one player in the LEAGUE can defend LeBron right now. If you really believe otherwise, if you think Rondo defends LeBron well based on 2-3 possessions where he really didn't care to take it to Rajon...well, we're done talking.

[Guest N/A]

The only time I'm bringing other players into this is when I'm proving how ridiculous it is to show me video proof of something just to prove a player hasn't been able to defend Wade for eight seasons. One or two situations isn't going to prove anything. I'm too lazy to dig up video of Hinrich shutting Wade down...but most remember it, and I'm sure you do as well.

 

Rondo's defense was the reason the Celtics beat the Cavaliers, huh? Did he defend LeBron then, also? I hope you say no, because LeBron gutted the Celtics' defense.

 

Did you see what Wade did to Rondo and the Celtics in the first round? Go look up Wade's numbers against Boston, when Rondo was defending him...lol. I haven't seen a player do that good against Boston's defense in a long time.

 

And, obviously, you think Rajon could handle LeBron James for 40 minutes of a game...funniest thing I've read in a long time. No one player in the LEAGUE can defend LeBron right now. If you really believe otherwise, if you think Rondo defends LeBron well based on 2-3 possessions where he really didn't care to take it to Rajon...well, we're done talking.

 

Rondo guarded LeBron from Game 4 on and look what happened.

 

I saw Wade's numbers against Rondo, they're impressive.

 

Have you seen Wade's career average against the Bulls before Kirk? Go look it up.

 

I know for a fact Rondo can guard LeBron 40 minutes a game.

 

He's done it in the playoffs before and the regular season.

 

Yes, Boston's defense helps Rondo be so effective versus LeBron, but you can't discount Rondo's incredible defensive ability.

 

Also, tried to find that Hinrich clip, couldn't find it...

[Real Deal]

I don't know if I'd agree with that logic. I hate to sound redundant here, but Rondo is just a better all around defender. He does so much more than Kirk on defense, from crashing the boards to playing the passing lanes, something Kirk definitely isn't good at. The Celtics already are a poor rebounding team, take Rondo off of it, and they become terrible. Can the Celtics use a guy like Kirk so Ray doesn't have to cover Kobe in the Finals? Definitely, but he wouldn't be able to do all the things Rondo did on a daily basis.

I don't consider rebounding a defensive trait. Rebounding is rebounding. The only time it's consider "defensive" is when you're playing defense. The same exact move towards the ball is also sometimes considered an offensive rebound. It's in a category of its own.

 

Durant is a good rebounder at the SF position, but he's not a good defensive player. Same with Kevin Love, the best rebounder in the league.

 

I'm talking about defending an assignment. The "I'm going to make an attempt to take you out of this game" defense. The day that you're stuck out on an island with some of the best in the game, with no help. It's what Ron Artest described as being the toughest thing to do in the NBA.

 

Hinrich takes it.

 

Stick Garnett and Perkins in the backcourt, and suddenly, it's Rondo's hand being raised.

 

Similar to Battier, when he has Yao. He's probably the best defender in the NBA. You take out Yao, make the Rockets smaller, and he doesn't have anywhere to lead his man, and then we start looking at guys like Afflalo and Sefolosha, who are very good on-ball defensive players.

 

Not much more for me to say, really.

[Real Deal]

Rondo guarded LeBron from Game 4 on and look what happened.

LOL, no he didn't. I watched Game 6 (LBJ's triple-double) three weeks ago. Who told you that?

[AboveLegit]

I don't consider rebounding a defensive trait. Rebounding is rebounding. The only time it's consider "defensive" is when you're playing defense. The same exact move towards the ball is also sometimes considered an offensive rebound. It's in a category of its own.

 

Durant is a good rebounder at the SF position, but he's not a good defensive player. Same with Kevin Love, the best rebounder in the league.

There's a reason why there's two types of rebounds, defensive and offensive. You don't go on offense till you get the ball away from the other team, and that can only happen with a rebound, steal, or turnover. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that rebounding isn't part of defense. Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story, hence why you see Love being a good rebounder but not a good overall defender...but it's PART of the whole idea surrounding defense.

 

I'm talking about defending an assignment. The "I'm going to make an attempt to take you out of this game" defense. The day that you're stuck out on an island with some of the best in the game, with no help. It's what Ron Artest described as being the toughest thing to do in the NBA.

See, but now your just getting way too specific and not looking at this whole topic from an objective standpoint. The fact is, Rondo does more on defense, and in turn, makes him the better defender. Nick Young is the best scorer on the Wizards, but is he the best player on the team?

[Real Deal]

See, but now your just getting way too specific and not looking at this whole topic from an objective standpoint. The fact is, Rondo does more on defense, and in turn, makes him the better defender. Nick Young is the best scorer on the Wizards, but is he the best player on the team?

I don't see how that Nick Young comment relates. It would've made more sense saying, "Nick Young scores the most points, but is he the best offensive player?"

 

If that's what you meant, my bad.

 

I'm sure you can argue that CP3 does more on offense than Kobe Bryant, when it comes to scoring + facilitating. Is he a better offensive player than Kobe?

 

In fact, Emeka Okafor is a good help defender, as well as on-ball. Same with Bogut. However, Howard's help is far superior, and there's no point in arguing who the better defensive player is.

 

I've seen Kirk do a better job on Wade than Rondo has. I've seen Kirk do better on Kobe, versus Rondo and when he has made the attempt.

 

Here's something for you to confirm: who was doing an excellent job on Derrick Rose this season? Hinrich. I've seen both games. Wall didn't play in one, and Hinrich was defending Rose quite a bit in the other. Rose was pretty bad...couldn't hit anything.

 

Who was completely lit up when Garnett and Perkins weren't playing? Rondo. Rose absolutely destroyed the Celtics, lit Rondo up for 36, got to the line nearly 20 times (Rondo ended up with five fouls). Also, Rondo was completely dead on offense because of it, and Boston lost.

 

Want to know how Rose did in that other game against Boston? Garnett played, and Rose shot around 41% and had only five free throws. Rondo had a much better game on offense, and the Celtics didn't lose.

 

Rondo's offensive production would eventually take a hit, through an 82-game season, if he didn't have the help he does on defense. Also, his defense would be less recognized, because guys like Rose would tear into him.

[AboveLegit]

I've seen Kirk do a better job on Wade than Rondo has. I've seen Kirk do better on Kobe, versus Rondo and when he has made the attempt.

Like I said, Kirk has the advantage because he's taller and stronger, so there's no doubt that he'd do a better job on the bigger guards.

 

Here's something for you to confirm: who was doing an excellent job on Derrick Rose this season? Hinrich. I've seen both games. Wall didn't play in one, and Hinrich was defending Rose quite a bit in the other. Rose was pretty bad...couldn't hit anything.

What are you trying to prove here though? We all know Wall isn't close to being the defender that Hinrich is, I've never refuted that. Wall is strictly a good roamer right now, he doesn't have the ability to play good man to man defense. I've said that many times here.

 

Who was completely lit up when Garnett and Perkins weren't playing? Rondo. Rose absolutely destroyed the Celtics, lit Rondo up for 36, got to the line nearly 20 times (Rondo ended up with five fouls). Also, Rondo was completely dead on offense because of it, and Boston lost.

 

Want to know how Rose did in that other game against Boston? Garnett played, and Rose shot around 41% and had only five free throws. Rondo had a much better game on offense, and the Celtics didn't lose.

 

Rondo's offensive production would eventually take a hit, through an 82-game season, if he didn't have the help he does on defense. Also, his defense would be less recognized, because guys like Rose would tear into him.

He is a good man to man defender, and his opponent per is a great example of this (12.7 at PG, 12.4 at SG). You also added guys like JO and Shaq this year, Rondo was All NBA defensive without them, and had an injured KG some of last year and they year before. And it's not like Noah and Gibson were slouches on defense last year, so let's not act like Hinrich didn't rely on their inside defenders last year.

 

Rondo has played without players around him. Since the Celtics won, injuries have riddled them year after year, yet Rondo has been relatively the same player. When Bostons defense is still relatively the same without Garnett, you have to look at Rondo to be the main reason for that.

 

Perkins wasn't all defensive last year, not first or second, and throughout the year he was the only healthy big they really had (unless you think Glen Davis is a great defensive player too). All defensive second in '09, all defensive first in '10, Rajon Rondo is best defender at the point.

[Real Deal]

I wasn't asking you to compare Wall and Hinrich.

[Real Deal]

Just for kicks, does anyone have Derrick Rose's phone number? If you do, call him up and ask him why he shot 5-21 tonight, then ask the ESPN crew (who were praising this one guy named Kirk after the Hawks/Bulls game).

 

BOSS.

[*Swish*]

RONDO AND HINRICH

[Makaveli]

Just for kicks, does anyone have Derrick Rose's phone number? If you do, call him up and ask him why he shot 5-21 tonight, then ask the ESPN crew (who were praising this one guy named Kirk after the Hawks/Bulls game).

 

BOSS.

5-21 fg, 0-6 from 3, 6 TO's.

 

Hinrich is a beast defensively.

[Real Deal]

5-21 fg, 0-6 from 3, 6 TO's.

 

Hinrich is a beast defensively.

He's very aggressive on-ball, and he's also got a high defensive IQ and leads his man into help. I have no idea how many times I saw him leading Rose into the bigs last night...a lot of Rose's shots were contested by Hinrich OR a big was there before Rose took launch.

 

I'm sure the rebuttal will be to wait and find a game where he gets lit, which will happen because all great defenders get burned from time to time...but there's no denying that Hinrich is in this discussion, 100%.

[The Regime]

I'll give Hinrich his due but the fact of the matter is that Derrick Rose is still really inconsistent jumpshooter on offense. He makes alot of opposing pg's look good when his jumpers broke. He has had a number of games this season where he has taken a high volume of shots and shot a terrible percentage.

 

And it's not like Derrick Rose hasn't has his share of dominant defensive performances against top notch point guards this season. In February alone he shut down the two best pg's in the league in consecutive games.

 

Deron Williams 5-13 fg's, 0-3 3pt, 5 to's, 11 assists, 11 points

Chris Paul 3-10 fg's, 1-2 3pt, 2 to's, 6 assists, 15 points

 

I'm not saying that Rose is a better defensive pg that Hinrich, because he isn't at this point in his career. But guys have off nights, and someone like Rose has them far too often.

[andre smoothwhite]

RONDO simply just rondo. He's defensive minded not like the other PG's in the league