Dwyane Wade or Derrick Rose?

[JYD]

DId you see who Wade was playing with 2 years ago? A rookie Michael Beasley was the second best player on that team and he led them to almost 50 wins and a 4th seed.

Not to mention he basically won the 06 Finals by himself...Lol

[Nitro]

Dwight does nothing for his teammates, whoop dee doo he grabs rebounds and scores within 6 feet of the paint. Call me when he has the type of complete game Dirk or Melo has, until then I don't see how he can be considered top 10 tbh.

 

Dwight does nothing for his teammates?!? Did you know the Magic this season were the 3rd best defensive team in the league, and that's with Richardson, Hedo, Arenas, Nelson, and Reddick playing major minutes, and for the majority of the season only having one legit Center, Dwight. He had a Drtg of 94 this year...the next closest guy who played more than 25 games was Ryan Andersen at 101...that difference is astronomical and practically unheard of. In other words, besides Dwight that team is horrible defensively, yet they rank among the league's elite because Dwight is a monster defensively and is able to clean up all their mistakes. On top of the actual defense, the Magic were 6th in the league in rebounding with nobody grabbing even 6 boards per game besides Dwight. Offensively, he 's the only player on the team that can score in the paint. Without him, they're strong 3pt attack would drop significantly...not to mention he's not only a player who takes attention away from those guys, but he drops in 23PPG on ridiculous efficiency as well.

 

LMAO...Melo and Dirk have complete games and Dwight doesn't? Melo and Dirk aren't dominant on both sides of the ball like Dwight, neither of them are exceptional passers like a LeBron/Kobe/Wade, and neither scored as efficiently as Dwight (even when factoring in FT%). They may have more complete offensive games, but Dwight's the best defensive player in the league along with being one of the best rebounders and post scorers.

 

Lastly, Shaq never needed to score past 6ft away from the basket, yet he's one of the greatest players of all-time. Dwight scored 23PPG this season (.1 less than Dirk, and around 2.5PPG less than Melo) and did it on ridiculous efficiency...bottom line is he got it done.

 

Yes that does scream over rated. Did you really just say 2nd best? What was the Miami Heat's record when he put up those numbers? And the year before? I rest my case...Wade's a great player, I'm not saying he isn't a super star, he's just over rated when people mention him being compared to Kobe or Wade. Same for Dwight, only he's not a super star...

 

Rose is less efficient because he takes more 3's but taking more 3's open's up the court for his teammates more, stats are very subjective to the players on the floor and the tendencies of the players.

 

Yes, I said second best...for the past 3 years Wade has produced more than Kobe (on greater efficiency) as well as played better, far more consistent defense. I've always swallowed my tongue when it came to that because Kobe usually came up big in the post-season while Wade was stuck on crappy teams and didn't get to advance to show what he could do, but now I think he is clearly more effective than Kobe.

 

As for what the Heat did when he was putting up those numbers...about as much as the Lakers did when Kobe was at his peak and putting up huge numbers. When Wade had good teams in the past, he got them deep in the post-season along with having stellar regular seasons (24/7/5 in 04-05, 27/7/6 in 05-06).

 

As for Rose being less efficient because he takes more 3's...this season Rose shot 48.0% on 2pt FGA's while Wade shot 53.0%. And before you use the LeBron excuse, Wade shot 51.0% on 2pt FGA's in 09-10 (which was a down year for him in the efficiency department).

Edited April 24, 2011 by Nitro

[fish7718]

Dwight does nothing for his teammates?!? Did you know the Magic this season were the 3rd best defensive team in the league, and that's with Richardson, Hedo, Arenas, Nelson, and Reddick playing major minutes, and for the majority of the season only having one legit Center, Dwight. He had a Drtg of 94 this year...the next closest guy who played more than 25 games was Ryan Andersen at 101...that difference is astronomical and practically unheard of. In other words, besides Dwight that team is horrible defensively, yet they rank among the league's elite because Dwight is a monster defensively and is able to clean up all their mistakes. On top of the actual defense, the Magic were 6th in the league in rebounding with nobody grabbing even 6 boards per game besides Dwight. Offensively, he 's the only player on the team that can score in the paint. Without him, they're strong 3pt attack would drop significantly...not to mention he's not only a player who takes attention away from those guys, but he drops in 23PPG on ridiculous efficiency as well.

 

LMAO...Melo and Dirk have complete games and Dwight doesn't? Melo and Dirk aren't dominant on both sides of the ball like Dwight, neither of them are exceptional passers like a LeBron/Kobe/Wade, and neither scored as efficiently as Dwight (even when factoring in FT%). They may have more complete offensive games, but Dwight's the best defensive player in the league along with being one of the best rebounders and post scorers.

 

Lastly, Shaq never needed to score past 6ft away from the basket, yet he's one of the greatest players of all-time. Dwight scored 23PPG this season (.1 less than Dirk, and around 2.5PPG less than Melo) and did it on ridiculous efficiency...bottom line is he got it done.

 

 

 

Yes, I said second best...for the past 3 years Wade has produced more than Kobe (on greater efficiency) as well as played better, far more consistent defense. I've always swallowed my tongue when it came to that because Kobe usually came up big in the post-season while Wade was stuck on crappy teams and didn't get to advance to show what he could do, but now I think he is clearly more effective than Kobe.

 

As for what the Heat did when he was putting up those numbers...about as much as the Lakers did when Kobe was at his peak and putting up huge numbers. When Wade had good teams in the past, he got them deep in the post-season along with having stellar regular seasons (24/7/5 in 04-05, 27/7/6 in 05-06).

 

As for Rose being less efficient because he takes more 3's...this season Rose shot 48.0% on 2pt FGA's while Wade shot 53.0%. And before you use the LeBron excuse, Wade shot 51.0% on 2pt FGA's in 09-10 (which was a down year for him in the efficiency department).

Oh boy, don't feel like reading a book so I'm just gonna drop it lol. Dwight does nothing for his teammates offensively**, obv he makes the team that much better defensively, but the Magic have a lot of offensivley capable players but can never seem to get it going even when Dwight is getting his.

 

Comparing Shaq to Dwight is laughable to me. Shaq in his prime not only had more than 6 feet of range (he made a lot of baskets on long hook shots and great shots in the post) but he was far more dominant in the post and knew how to move the ball around. He was everything Dwight could be but never will be. Shaq prime only proves my point of how incomplete a player Dwight is.

 

As for Wade, again with this effiency thing, of course when a ton of your baskets come on shots near the rim you are going to shoot better. Especially when you are getting fouled at such a high rate, bailing you out on bad shots and even giving you some bonus baskets. I honestly don't believe Wade is a better scorer despite you kicking FG%'s at me. Stats may not lie but they don't tell the whole story...

[Flash]

So you're gonna penalize Wade for getting to the rim? That's part of his game lol. That's like saying take away Ray Allen's 3 point fg% to tell how effective he is. As for Dwight now doing anything for his team offensively. All I can do is lol. How do you think all those Magic shooters get their open looks? From teams being forced to double Dwight and him dishing it out to them for open threes.

[fish7718]

Not to mention he basically won the 06 Finals by himself...Lol

By himself? He had a team of not only Shaq and a bunch of talented old players, but a team of refs!

[Flash]

Btw, even Shaq in his prime was not even on the same planet defensively as Dwight Howard.

[Flash]

By himself? He had a team of not only Shaq and a bunch of talented old players, but a team of refs!

 

He made Antoine Walker, Jason Williams and James Posey look great. What have the first 2 been since they left Miami? Shaq, I'll give you but lets not act like it was a prime Shaq or anything. He wasn't even averaged 20 a game that year IIRC.

[fish7718]

So you're gonna penalize Wade for getting to the rim? That's part of his game lol. That's like saying take away Ray Allen's 3 point fg% to tell how effective he is. As for Dwight now doing anything for his team offensively. All I can do is lol. How do you think all those Magic shooters get their open looks? From teams being forced to double Dwight and him dishing it out to them for open threes.

How am I penalizing Wade? He hurts his teammates by not being able to spread the floor more. He also cannot score in amount of ways Rose can. That is why I say that. As for Dwight, if that were true then Dwight would average more than 1.4 Assists a game. The Magic get a lot of open 3's through pick and rolls.

[fish7718]

He made Antoine Walker, Jason Williams and James Posey look great. What have the first 2 been since they left Miami? Shaq, I'll give you but lets not act like it was a prime Shaq or anything. He wasn't even averaged 20 a game that year IIRC.

Shaq was still scoring 20 PPG shooting 60%, pretty dominant. That team had a cast of great defenders, defense and whistles wins championships.

[Flash]

How am I penalizing Wade? He hurts his teammates by not being able to spread the floor more. He also cannot score in amount of ways Rose can. That is why I say that. As for Dwight, if that were true then Dwight would average more than 1.4 Assists a game. The Magic get a lot of open 3's through pick and rolls.

 

 

He can't score in the same ways? Their games are basically the same. They both get to the rim whenever they want and are average shooters.

[Flash]

Lol @ using the refs argument. If that's all you have to fall back on then I rest my case. This is simply a case of haters gonna hate. But that's fine.

[fish7718]

He can't score in the same ways? Their games are basically the same. They both get to the rim whenever they want and are average shooters.

Rose has more range, and it appears as if it will continue to get better.

 

Nitro is writing a novel I don't want to read

Edited April 24, 2011 by Pinkie Pie

[Flash]

Rose has more range? The both shoot under 33% from three but are very streaky from downtown so I'm not sure how you give Rose a clear advantage in range. And btw, Rose is shooting 20% from three in the post season. TIFWIW.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Flash

[Nitro]

Oh boy, don't feel like reading a book so I'm just gonna drop it lol. Dwight does nothing for his teammates offensively**, obv he makes the team that much better defensively, but the Magic have a lot of offensivley capable players but can never seem to get it going even when Dwight is getting his.

 

Of course he does, he leads the team in points by 8PPG, while taking only 1 more FGA than Richardson. He is the only player that can consistently score in the paint on the Magic, and along with all the double teams he receives it opens up that strong 3pt attack the Magic have (keep in mind, they have no really good playmaker either). Just because he's not a great passer doesn't mean he doesn't make his teammates' lives much easier offensively.

 

Comparing Shaq to Dwight is laughable to me. Shaq in his prime not only had more than 6 feet of range (he made a lot of baskets on long hook shots and great shots in the post) but he was far more dominant in the post and knew how to move the ball around. He was everything Dwight could be but never will be. Shaq prime only proves my point of how incomplete a player Dwight is.

 

Dwight has as much range as Shaq ever did, especially now that he's developed a relatively consistent 15ft bank shot. All I was debating is that you don't need to do much more than score within 6ft to be elite, I wasn't debating who was the better overall offensive player. Still, Dwight DOES now have a solid post repertoire, and mix that in with his insane athleticism and ability to finish in the paint, and he's become a truly elite post player...he was the highest scoring post player in the league last season, and he was the most efficient scorer of anyone who scored at least 22PPG (once again, that's factoring in his FT%). I don't know how you can possibly minimize that.

 

As for Wade, again with this effiency thing, of course when a ton of your baskets come on shots near the rim you are going to shoot better. Especially when you are getting fouled at such a high rate, bailing you out on bad shots and even giving you some bonus baskets. I honestly don't believe Wade is a better scorer despite you kicking FG%'s at me. Stats may not lie but they don't tell the whole story...

 

Besides being a better finisher at the rim, Wade also has a very effective post game, has more pet-moves to get his shot off, and his midrange and 3pt shooting aren't much worse than Rose's (Rose is only a 33% 3pt shooter to Wade's 30%). And yes, the fact that Wade does get to the line more than Rose is a major factor, just like it is if you're comparing Rose to LeBron or Durant as well.

 

I mean, once again, just 2 years ago Wade LED THE LEAGUE IN SCORING and did it on far greater efficiency than Rose, with a worse supporting cast. Just last season Wade averaged 34PPG on 56% shooting against the Celtics in the playoffs, who managed to lockdown LeBron and Kobe. Back in '06 he averaged nearly 30PPG on 70% shooting against the Ben Wallace Pistons in the ECF. I don't know what more he can do to prove he is CLEARLY a better scorer than Rose.

[fish7718]

Well we've done the Dwight argument a few times now, best just to agree to disagree...

 

As for Wade the only thing I believe Wade has on Rose is finishing near the rim and free throws, which I know are both huge parts of the game but Rose is a better shooter and once he gets getting superstar calls he should have a similar average to Wade. Also I know it's right now, but Wade is 30, Rose 24....1 isn't getting any better..

[Nitro]

As for Wade the only thing I believe Wade has on Rose is finishing near the rim and free throws, which I know are both huge parts of the game but Rose is a better shooter and once he gets getting superstar calls he should have a similar average to Wade. Also I know it's right now, but Wade is 30, Rose 24....1 isn't getting any better..

 

Wade also has an effective post game which Rose doesn't have, is a better rebounder (averaged over 6RPG this year which is fantastic for a 6'4'' SG), and is a far better defender, which is ultimately what comfortably puts him ahead of Rose. I don't think you put enough stock into just how good Wade is on that side of the ball; he is the best shot-blocking guard since prime MJ (which the numbers back up), gets his steals, causes chaos with his ability to cut off passing lanes and make sharp rotations, and he's a tremendous one-on-one defender against iso scorers. If they were equal defensively, this would be a very close debate, but with Wade having such a major advantage in that area it really isn't all that close.

 

Oh, and Wade's only 28, and Rose's only 22. Rose definitely will improve and Wade's probably about leveled out, but this is about who's better right now.

[Real Deal]

Wade is arguably the best shot-blocking guard since Jordan...but it's not clear. You're forgetting Reggie Lewis. He played a lot of two-guard (primary position), but he was also around 6'6" or so. He would block a lot of shots...too lazy to look it up (takes forever on my iPhone), but he was one of the best at that position.

 

Vince wasn't half bad in his younger days (blocking shots), when he was actually trying to dominate the NBA and show that he could defend, but he fell off so much (defensively) that people don't remember those first few seasons.

 

And I read that Wade finishes better at the rim (maybe a couple of people said that). I don't know about that.

[Nitro]

Wade is arguably the best shot-blocking guard since Jordan...but it's not clear. You're forgetting Reggie Lewis. He played a lot of two-guard (primary position), but he was also around 6'6" or so. He would block a lot of shots...too lazy to look it up (takes forever on my iPhone), but he was one of the best at that position.

 

Vince wasn't half bad in his younger days (blocking shots), when he was actually trying to dominate the NBA and show that he could defend, but he fell off so much (defensively) that people don't remember those first few seasons.

 

Both Wade and Lewis averaged 1.0BPG per 36min for their careers, but Wade has the longevity on Lewis, and Wade's also 3 inches shorter than Lewis which makes his feat more impressive IMO.

 

As for VC, I forgot about how good of a shotblocker was, but again, Wade has the longevity on him. T-Mac was actually the best of the bunch, averaging 1.9BPG back in 99-00, and 1.5BPG the following, but his longevity hurts him too (as well as the fact that he had the natural height of a SF).

 

And I read that Wade finishes better at the rim (maybe a couple of people said that). I don't know about that.

 

According to Hoopdata.com, Wade shot 66.6% at the rim this season to Rose's 60.0%, and between 3-9ft Wade shot 50.0% to Rose's 39.7%. Besides the stats, Wade finishes better at the rim because he knows how to finish with contact better, won't make shots more difficult by trying to avoid the contact, and he has freakishly long arms which help him finish easier than Rose, who is only about an inch shorter than him.

[LakerNation94]

I would go with Wade. I wanna see Rose have another year like this then maybe Rose > Wade

[kingfish]

Ill take D-Whistle.

 

Oh wait theyre both D-Whistle. :glasses:

[Flash]

SO now that they'll be facing each other in the ECF, has anyone's opinion changed? Wade just finished averaging 30 a game on Boston yet again while Rose had a great series against ATL.

[Real Deal]

Both Wade and Lewis averaged 1.0BPG per 36min for their careers, but Wade has the longevity on Lewis, and Wade's also 3 inches shorter than Lewis which makes his feat more impressive IMO.

Longevity? That's really not fair for Reggie...come on man.

 

Having watched Lewis the last 3-4 seasons of his career, I can tell you that most of his blocks were in the face of the opposition. He would block their jumpers and layups, one-on-one, which is more impressive to me.

 

In fact...

 

 

Wade's lack of height (vs. Lewis) is impressive as well, but he's also more athletic than Lewis was. Plus, as you state below, Wade has "freakishly long arms."

 

According to Hoopdata.com, Wade shot 66.6% at the rim this season to Rose's 60.0%, and between 3-9ft Wade shot 50.0% to Rose's 39.7%. Besides the stats, Wade finishes better at the rim because he knows how to finish with contact better, won't make shots more difficult by trying to avoid the contact, and he has freakishly long arms which help him finish easier than Rose, who is only about an inch shorter than him.

Those stats don't mean much to me. There are plenty of guys shooting better at the rim...doesn't mean they are better finishers because the stats don't consider the defensive attention Rose and Wade get. Does Beno Udrih really finish better at the rim than LeBron, Wade or Rose?

 

Having Bosh and LeBron helps. Defenses collapse into the paint much, much quicker. I rarely see Rose with an open layup or dunk. Wade gets them more often, which certainly helps his percentage.

[Nitro]

Longevity? That's really not fair for Reggie...come on man.

 

Having watched Lewis the last 3-4 seasons of his career, I can tell you that most of his blocks were in the face of the opposition. He would block their jumpers and layups, one-on-one, which is more impressive to me.

 

The majority of Wade's blocks are in the face of his opposition as well, and a lot of his blocks are on big men as well...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecZ71ZJLOg8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYwbFSpb6vI&feature=related

 

If we are going by single season, then T-Mac was probably the best shot-blocking SG ever (or at least the last 30 years or so) for those 2-3 seasons.

 

 

Those stats don't mean much to me. There are plenty of guys shooting better at the rim...doesn't mean they are better finishers because the stats don't consider the defensive attention Rose and Wade get. Does Beno Udrih really finish better at the rim than LeBron, Wade or Rose?

 

Having Bosh and LeBron helps. Defenses collapse into the paint much, much quicker. I rarely see Rose with an open layup or dunk. Wade gets them more often, which certainly helps his percentage.

 

Wade shot between 66-67% at the rim each of the last 5 seasons, while having a variety of different teammates, injuries and even coaches. And the stats are applicable because Rose and wade both take a huge percentage of their attempts at the rim, and both have a very similar style of play and receive similar defensive attention. The stats just back up the fact that Wade finishes better at the rim due to being longer and knowing how to finish with contact better.

[Real Deal]

The shot-blocking thing is really a matter of opinion, still think Reggie Lewis is right there with Wade because he blocks those he defends more than he does others off help, but I'm already done arguing about Rose finishing at the rim because I'm pissed off at him after Game 2's catastrophe.

[Sħãlïq™]

D-Wade!!