The Truth Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 ^ so even if Miami finishes above Chicago, you still think Rose deserves MVP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I'm looking over their stats and LeBron leads Rose in just about every category besides assists. Because of this:http://www.backstagegfx.com/forum/uploads/U141-1300503404.png LMAO, OWNED! Rose does more with less, plain and simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I get the Rose for MVP talk, but I think it's selling short the coaching Thibodeau has done this year. The reason why the Bulls are so tough to beat isn't just that Rose is a tremendous player, it's that he has that team playing ridiculously tough defense from top to bottom. The Bulls have a positive +/- even while Rose is on the bench. Their second unit keeps teams struggling to score, allowing the Bulls to be very, very good for 48 minutes. Nobody would say Rose is a top 5 defensive PG. That's not knocking him though as he's definitely improved this year under Thibodeau, but it's interesting that from a pure offensive standpoint, compared to past MVP's especially, he's not out of this world or even close to them. 2010 MVP: LBJ PER 31 (#1)2009 MVP: LBJ PER 31 (#1)2008 MVP: Kobe PER 24 (#7)2007 MVP: Dirk PER 27 (#2)2006 MVP: Nash PER 23 (#14)2005 MVP: Nash PER 22 (#18)2004 MVP: KG PER 29 (#1) Usually, MVP goes to a guy near the top of PER, mainly because it's been an offensive award for a long time now. Kobe's award in 2008 could've gone to either LBJ or CP3 and Nash's awards have been the most scrutinized MVP awards I can remember. 2011 MVP?: Derrick Rose PER 23 (#12) This isn't hating on Rose because his season has been amazing. Its just interesting where he stacks up compared to past MVPs.PER has nothing to do with offense, it has to do with how efficient you are, hence, player EFFICIENCY rating. LeBron will always dominate this stat because all he does is drive to the rim. A point guard will never lead this because his job isn't to be an efficient scorer, it's to win games anyway possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YugoRocketsFan Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 LMAO, OWNED! Rose does more with less, plain and simple Only this year. LeBron took a team of scrubs to the finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballorama Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Only this year. LeBron took a team of scrubs to the finals. In a very weak Eastern Conference.. just saying. The east is very competitive this season with Boston, Miami, Orlando, NY, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truth Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) PER has nothing to do with offense, it has to do with how efficient you are, hence, player EFFICIENCY rating. LeBron will always dominate this stat because all he does is drive to the rim. A point guard will never lead this because his job isn't to be an efficient scorer, it's to win games anyway possible.you say PER shouldn't matter in this debate because LeBron's able to drive to the rim. should assists also be overlooked in this debate since Rose is a pg? that's why I hate those types of arguments. when people say, 'well, he has better teammates,' or 'it's not really a pg's job to score.' or 'PER shouldn't matter because he can't get to the rim as easily.' all you're doing is losing objectivity and molding your argument in Rose's favor. it's not fair to overlook certain stats just because they don't favor Rose as well as they do LeBron. you have to look at all stats and be objective. it's not fair to LeBron to think less of his accomplishments because he's bigger or stronger. both players have strengths and weaknesses, so it's only fair to look at all things the same. Edited March 20, 2011 by The Truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted March 20, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Going to say it for the last time: when there are 3-4 legit MVP candidates (Rose, James, Dwight, Wade), all four are playing like superstars, you look at their teams. When one is teamed with ANOTHER, it's an automatic out unless that team wins 70+ games and sets records. There is absolutely no reason to change the criteria all of a sudden. It has always been the players on 50+ win teams, playing like superstars, that do more with less. Simple as that. There are only 2-3 people on this entire site that will argue against that, and it's only funny that they will do it either because they are LeBron jockers (even those that used to hate him) or because they like to troll. Rose, Dwight...and everyone else comes next. That's the way it will happen, too. Hang your heads, yell conspiracy, do whatever makes you sleep better at night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Way to take that completely out of context. Then again, I'm not surprised.Man your sense of sarcasm [expletive]ing sucks bro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truth Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) why? why should a player be penalized for having good teammates? no one discredits a pitcher who's backed by a good offense. no one discredits a quarterback who has a good o-line. no one discredits a goaltender who has good defenders. why should this be any different? for reasons I don't understand, a lot of you think LeBron doesn't deserve it because he's playing alongside all-stars. why should that matter? the teammates a player has should be irrelevant when determining MVP. the things that should matter are stats and team record - pretty much everything else should be irrelevant. LeBron has better stats than Rose this year, plain and simple. Rose has a better team record, but not by much. this is the most valuable player award, so individual achievement should come before team success. therefore, LeBron rightfully deserves this year's MVP, end of story. Edited March 20, 2011 by The Truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) why? why should a player be penalized for having good teammates? no one discredits a pitcher who's backed by a good offense. no one discredits a quarterback who has a good o-line. no one discredits a goaltender who has good defenders. why should this be any different? for reasons I don't understand, a lot of you think LeBron doesn't deserve it because he's playing alongside all-stars. why should that matter? the teammates a player has should be irrelevant when determining MVP. the things that should matter are stats and team record - pretty much everything else should be irrelevant. LeBron has better stats than Rose this year, plain and simple. Rose has a better team record, but not by much. this is the most valuable player award, so individual achievement should come before team accomplishments. therefore, LeBron deserves this year's MVP.Pitching has nothing to do with offensive output, what a horrible comparison, and it is well known that 'Win' for a pitcher is the worst stat in baseball.People don't discredit QB's for having good o-line's but they do praise them for doing better for worse o-line's which is exactly the point being made here, Rose does better with worse teammates.I don't watch hockey but I guarantee you they do It's called MOST VALUABLE PLAYER As in most valuable to his team. Without LeBron the Heat are still a top team in the east, without Rose the Bulls are fighting with Pacers right now, especially considering all the injuries they've had. By your argument, if Kevin Durant tosses up 50 shots a game and has the best PER but the Thunder have the worst record in the NBA, he deserves the MVP because he had the best stats and stats become before the team accomplishments? If that's not the most moronic flawed argument I have ever read on this forum, I invite you to find one worse. I'm sorry but I find people so ignorant when they are just blinded by stupid stats and use them to guage everything, including the funniest shit they do, using stats to show how 'talented' a player is. If you watched basketball this year it should be pretty clear why Rose is the MVP and LeBron isn't. LeBron can put up all the stats he [expletive]ing wants at the end of the day he is not more valuable to his team than Rose is to his, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Edited March 20, 2011 by fish7718 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNiner Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Deng, Boozer, Noah, and Thibodeau >>>>>>>>>Wade, Bosh, and Spo. Advantage, LeBron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Deng, Boozer, Noah, and Thibodeau >>>>>>>>>Wade, Bosh, and Spo. Advantage, LeBron.Even if this were true Noah and Boozer have been for most of the season, however I know it's a joke anyway, your basketball knowledge that is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted March 20, 2011 Owner Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 why?Don't ask me. I think Kobe should've had more than one MVP, and Shaq as well, being the best players in the league for a decade...but it didn't happen that way. No reason to change it now, though. That's what you're wanting to do. The only thing, other than that, that bothers me about your post...is that you're using stats to find the best player in the NBA. LeBron is probably there this year, because Kobe is hobbled now...but two years ago, Bryant was the better overall player, the better defender and BY FAR more skilled offensively, yet he didn't take home the 2009 MVP award because the Cavaliers were a 66-win team without someone like Gasol backing up LeBron. The award isn't the best overall player, it's the most valuable to his team's success. The weight of the award rests in that team's record AND the fact that the player must be of superstar level, putting up superstar numbers. It should never change. There wasn't a single person better than Mike from 1986-1998 (exceptions are the years he retired, and played just 17 games in the return), but I didn't see him win 10 season MVP awards, either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truth Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 By your argument, if Kevin Durant tosses up 50 shots a game and has the best PER but the Thunder have the worst record in the NBA, he deserves the MVP because he had the best stats and stats become before the team accomplishments?that's not what I'm saying at all. I admitted team record should be acknowledged when making this decision, but it shouldn't mean everything. why? why should a player be penalized for having good teammates? no one discredits a pitcher who's backed by a good offense. no one discredits a quarterback who has a good o-line. no one discredits a goaltender who has good defenders. why should this be any different? for reasons I don't understand, a lot of you think LeBron doesn't deserve it because he's playing alongside all-stars. why should that matter? the teammates a player has should be irrelevant when determining MVP. the things that should matter are stats and team record - pretty much everything else should be irrelevant. LeBron has better stats than Rose this year, plain and simple. Rose has a better team record, but not by much. this is the most valuable player award, so individual achievement should come before team success. therefore, LeBron rightfully deserves this year's MVP, end of story.stats should also be considered, obviously, and the Heat are nowhere near last place, so your comparison is void. at what point do stats override team record when it comes to your final decision? if a guy's leading his competitor in pretty much every single statistical category besides assists, and he's only a couple games back, I don't see why he wouldn't get the nod in that situation. I've watched plenty basketball to know what D-Rose has done for his team this year, but he hasn't played at LeBron's level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Penny Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Some of you guys need to learn the definition for MVP. Most Valuable Player. LeBron is not more valuable to his team than Rose. LeBron is a better player than Rose, Rose is more valuable to the Bulls than LeBron is to the Heat. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHutch Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) that's not what I'm saying at all. I admitted team record should be acknowledged when making this decision, but it shouldn't mean everything. stats should also be considered, obviously, and the Heat are nowhere near last place, so your comparison is void. at what point do stats override team record when it comes to your final decision? if a guy's leading his competitor in pretty much every single statistical category besides assists, and he's only a couple games back, I don't see why he wouldn't get the nod in that situation. I've watched plenty basketball to know what D-Rose has done for his team this year, but he hasn't played at LeBron's level. :wallbash3: Just answer this for me. How good would the Bulls be without Rose? How good would the Heat be without LeBron? You keep italicizing the word player in your posts, do you realize it's the "MOST VALUABLE" player, and not necessarily the BEST player. You keep acting like the award just goes to the best player, but it goes to the most valuable. Edited March 20, 2011 by TheHutch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver P Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 There are several MVP candidates in the league this year and LeBron James is definitely one of them. He has better teammates than ever indeed but the fact that he's averaging the same stats that he was in Cleveland shows that he's still as important to his team as he was in Cleveland. Besides, even if it's true that they tend to give the MVP to a player that does more with less (which seems quite logical indeed anyhow) you definitely can win MVP while playing with great teammates. Bill Russell won several MVPs despite the fact that he was surrounded by players like Jones, Havlicek, Heinsohn, Cousy or Sharman. Moses Malone won it despite the fact that he had Erving and Cheeks for teammates. Larry Bird won it despite the fact that his teammates were McHale, Parish and DJ. The last year he won it there was even Walton in the team (even if Bill wasn't exactly the player he used to be by then because of his injuries...). Magic won it despite the fact that he was surounded by Jabbar and Worthy. When Shaq won it the Lakers were the better team in the league on paper (except maybe the Blazers). So it can happen. This said it is true that right now the clear MVP is definitely Derrick Rose. For a simple reason : who would have thought that the Bulls would be the best team in the East before the season started ? No one. Everybody was talking about Boston, Miami and Orlando. Yet they are. Not only that but Derrick led his team to the best record in the East despite all the injury troubles they had. Boozer missed more than 20 games and Noah more than 30. What Rose has done this season is just beyond belief. Meanwhile most people were sure that the Heat would not only win the ring for sure but would even win more than 70 games... The result ? They have now 0 chance to win 70 games are right now the 6th best team in the league. So in short we have two players who are both having a terrific season and would both deserve to be MVP indeed but the fact is that James hasn't led his team to its expectations while Rose has led his team to an even better level than it was supposed to be. Again despite the fact that the Bulls had so many injury troubles... So it's definitely impossible to make a case against Rose right now, he is the clear MVP indeed. Now the season is not over yet. And there are other MVP candidates. Dirk Nowitzki is definitely one of them, we saw how important he was to his team when he was injured. And if he wasn't injured the Mavs would probably have the second best record in the league and would be very close to the Spurs right now. The other two in that top five candidates are certainly Durant (who among the top candidates is probably the one who has the less good teammates) and Dwight. However both teams' record is probably not good enough right now. Especially for the Magic, they haven't been as good as they were supposed to be (this can be explained by the fact that they had an important trade during the season) so I would be surprised if Howard was named MVP this year. So IMO it will be either Rose, James or Dirk. But honestly I don't see how anyone else than Rose could be MVP. Because the only way that Dirk or James could be MVP is that the Heat or Mavs would have a much better record than the Bulls. As a matter of fact contrary to Chicago they were both legit contenders to the ring before the season started. Yet the Bulls have right now a better record than both of them, and even if the Mavs and Heat can still have a better record than Chicago at the end of the season we know now that whatever happens (unless the Bulls lose totally their basketball during the last 24 games, which is more than unlikely...) they will not have a much better record than them. There is no doubt that Derrick deserves to be MVP this year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Derrick Rose. Also just realizing a few of the epic troll personas we have on OTR in this thread... props! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truth Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Don't ask me. I think Kobe should've had more than one MVP, and Shaq as well, being the best players in the league for a decade...but it didn't happen that way. No reason to change it now, though. That's what you're wanting to do. The only thing, other than that, that bothers me about your post...is that you're using stats to find the best player in the NBA. LeBron is probably there this year, because Kobe is hobbled now...but two years ago, Bryant was the better overall player, the better defender and BY FAR more skilled offensively, yet he didn't take home the 2009 MVP award because the Cavaliers were a 66-win team without someone like Gasol backing up LeBron. The award isn't the best overall player, it's the most valuable to his team's success. The weight of the award rests in that team's record AND the fact that the player must be of superstar level, putting up superstar numbers. It should never change. There wasn't a single person better than Mike from 1986-1998 (exceptions are the years he retired, and played just 17 games in the return), but I didn't see him win 10 season MVP awards, either.this is probably the most sensible post of the topic. when it's put in this historical context, it seems the players most valuable to their respective teams usually win over the league's best player. I guess I want that to change, but it's not going to anytime soon, obviously. I can see more of where you're coming from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 These are the numbers/facts without manipulation: Through Saturday, Player X has averaged 22.1 points on .444 shooting with 4.8 rebounds, 7.1 assists and 1.5 steals. He has been his conference’s player of the week four times. Player Y has averaged 24.9 points on .439 shooting with 4.2 rebounds, 7.9 assists and 1.0 steals. He has been his conference’s player of the week twice. They are essentially the same player, in other words. Player X is more efficient and a better rebounder and thief, but Player Y scores one more basket per game. Yet Player X isn’t even considered the most valuable player on his own team. And Player Y is about to be named the most valuable player of the entire league. Why Y? Perception is not reality. Reality is reality. Player X (Russell Westbrook) isn’t viewed like Player Y (Derrick Rose) because winning alters all, even facts, even if one team is 53-19 and the other is 47-24. Exceed our expectations, and we’ll give you trophies you don’t deserve instead of admitting that our expectations were, um, wrong. The Bulls’ offense is statistically mediocre; Rose is that offense’s best player. The Bulls’ defense is best in the league; Rose might be that defense’s least important piece. But throw all the ingredients together in the Winning Pot, make a stew with a flavor that surprises us and you, too, can taste like MVP. Rose benefits from the greatness of his teammates, but Westbrook is harmed by the greatness of his more famous one (Kevin Durant). Would Westbrook be MVP if he simply had Chicago’s defense? Would he be a bigger scorer than Rose if he didn’t have to share with Durant? The only reason Rose scores 2.7 points more than Westbrook per game? He has taken 200 more shots. They should just rename the MVP trophy The We Didn’t Expect To See Rose Sitting Atop LeBron In The Standings Award. A million variables go into winning, but baseball is so much better at isolating and measuring those variables than basketball. Felix Hernandez won Cy Young with a 13-12 record in last place because baseball voters understand, after a mathematical paradigm shift called sabermetrics, how much Hernandez can and can’t control. And baseball is an individual sport masquerading as a team sport anyway. Albert Pujols is alone in that batter’s box, and it doesn’t matter if he listens to his manager or likes his third baseman. Hernandez controlled that baseball only when he held it; he couldn’t do anything about how terrible his teammates were at scoring. But basketball’s five are linked like fingers in a fist, and isolating performance is next to impossible, especially on defense. So intangibles get assigned to the winning instead of facts or data, and Rose has in his favor the Hey-I-Didn’t-Expect-The-Bulls-To-Be-Good metric that LeBron or Dwight Howard or Kobe or any of the Spurs or Mavs or Celtics can’t have. It is absurd that he will soon have as many MVPs as Shaquille O’Neal, but not as absurd as Steve Nash having twice as many as Shaq. The Bulls aren’t exceeding expectations because Rose is a “leader” or “knows how to win” or is “clutch.” They are exceeding expectations because no team in the league strangles the opponent better on defense. You want to give the Bulls coach of the year for that? Cool. Defensive player of the year? Fine. But MVP for the league’s 20th-ranked offense? The one scoring less than Indiana, Toronto, Philadelphia, the Clippers and Sacramento? Rose has been named the best player in his conference two weeks this season. Two. So, too, has LeMarcus Aldridge. How can you be the most valuable for the entire season when you were only the most valuable in your conference two weeks? Almost everywhere outside of sports and Visa commercials, “best” and “most valuable” are supposed to be synonyms. And try paying your Visa bill with a check that reads “priceless,” and see how that works for you. None of this is meant as an indictment of Rose. He’s just not the best one. Which means he’s not the most valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Where did you get that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clutch Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 rose might not deserve it to some people, but there is NO WAY you give it to bron when u have wade goin [expletive]ing INSANE right next to him, if it goes to a miami player it better be a co-mvp, but thats not gonna happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 rose might not deserve it to some people, but there is NO WAY you give it to bron when u have wade goin [expletive]ing INSANE right next to him, if it goes to a miami player it better be a co-mvp, but thats not gonna happen Dwight Howard ftw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clutch Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 dwight howard certainly should be gettin way more love i agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N/A Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 dwight howard certainly should be gettin way more love i agree He should be [expletive]ing MVP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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